Ethnic Revisionism - Mary: Queen of the Multicultural Scots

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

Given the fact that they had to make over Saoirse Ronan over to make her have a more 'north of the border' look it seemed like they were taking the ethnic difference between Carlow and Hollyrood pretty seriously.

they were making her look more like Mary Stuart.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

are you unable to differentiate between an actor playing an historical character as Saoirse was and an actor playing a character invented purely for the film?

Are you saying that Mary queen of Scots can’t be played by a person of colour? Racist.

Actually I think that’s easier in many ways, like the excellent black Scrooge I saw in the US or many black Hamlets on stage. People know in that case that it’s an actor playing a role not that the character is in fact black.

For the servants it’s also actors playing a role, for the British film industry in particular which concentrates so much on its past it’s either hire minorities (who are in fact playing white characters in many cases, or characters who would have been white) or they will never get hired.

The servants and ladies in waiting in the court were often from high aristocratic families as it happens.

cgcsb

Wibbs wrote: »

There's a long history of this stuff. I mean when you think of Romans in films they're almost always played by British actors poncing about with plummy RADA accents and forever in togas. Even Russel Crowe a dyed in the wool Aussie went that route. The reality would have been more like the Sopranos. If you brought a Roman, or Tudor type through time and showed them films of their era, they'd likely have a fit of laughter at how daft it looked and how wrong they get it. What is he wearing? kinda thing. Spartans would wet themselves with laughter at something like 300. Rellies of mine who were in World War 2 used to crack up at war films and that's only yesterday by comparison, though the ones still above ground when Saving Private Ryan came out were very impressed(though apparently it lacked the really black humour of the time).

Hollywood has this thing about make characters from EVERY part of Europe have a British accent. WW2 films are very confusing because everyone is British. Even recently we had Collette, set in turn of the century Paris, everyone is British of course, and when they write letters they are writing them in French and then reading them allowed in unbroken English

ohnonotgmail

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Are you saying that Mary queen of Scots can’t be played by a person of colour? Racist.

tedious and predictable.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Actually I think that’s easier in many ways, like the excellent black Scrooge I saw in the US or many black Hamlets on stage. People know in that case that it’s an actor playing a role not that the character is in fact black.

For the servants it’s also actors playing a role, for the British film industry in particular which concentrates so much on its past it’s either hire minorities (who are in fact playing white characters in many cases) or they will never get hired.

Scrooge is not a historical character.

Varik

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

tedious and predictable.

Couldn't manage a "do better"

Maybe throw in some prayerhands

ohnonotgmail

Varik wrote: »

Couldn't manage a "do better"

Maybe throw in some prayerhands

No point. I know they can't.

Franz Von Peppercorn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

tedious and predictable.

No it’s a direct response to your post. You didn’t answer the question.

Scrooge is not a historical character.

Oh. You kinda did there. Are you saying you wouldn’t have a black actor play a real historical white character?

That is in fact racist.

Feisar

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Are you saying that Mary queen of Scots can’t be played by a person of colour? Racist.

Actually I think that’s easier in many ways, like the excellent black Scrooge I saw in the US or many black Hamlets on stage. People know in that case that it’s an actor playing a role not that the character is in fact black.

For the servants it’s also actors playing a role, for the British film industry in particular which concentrates so much on its past it’s either hire minorities (who are in fact playing white characters in many cases, or characters who would have been white) or they will never get hired.

The servants and ladies in waiting in the court were often from high aristocratic families as it happens.

Will Smith didn't want to do Wild Wild West because he is black. - Racist?

He regrets that flick for other reasons

ohnonotgmail

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No it’s a direct response to your stupid post. You didn’t answer the question.




Oh. You kinda did there. Are you saying you wouldn’t have a black actor play a real historical white character?

That is in fact racist.

If the intent is to be historical then why would you cast a black actor as a figure that is historically white? The same way you wouldn't cast a while actor as an historical asian or black figure. Do you think Denzel washington would be a good choice for a biopic of George Washington? Or christian bale as Nelson Mandela? It is nothing to do with racism. It is an expectation of historicity. Why do you have difficulty with this?

Franz Von Peppercorn

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If the intent is to be historical then why would you cast a black actor as a figure that is historically white?

That’s what they are doing with the servants. Admittedly they aren’t named characters.

The same way you wouldn't cast a while actor as an historical asian or black figure. Do you think Denzel washington would be a good choice for a biopic of George Washington? Or christian bale as Nelson Mandela? It is nothing to do with racism. It is an expectation of historicity. Why do you have difficulty with this?

I probably wouldn’t substitute black for white for two reasons, historical sensitivities and the fact that it’s easier for white actors to get jobs anyway.
However black people playing historically white roles is common on the US stage right now, broadways biggest musical is exactly that.

It’s just having an actor (black) playing a character (white) just as you might have an actor (Irish) play a mafia character (Sicilian).

Unless there’s some ideological nonsense of people saying or implying “this is how it was” then I see no issue.

Wibbs

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

It’s just having an actor (black) playing a character (white) just as you might have an actor (Irish) play a mafia character (Sicilian).

Unless there’s some ideological nonsense of people saying or implying “this is how it was” then I see no issue.

To be fair F an Irish actor playing a Sicilian could work and look "correct", if they looked Italian enough anyway. A Black lad would be jarring. In a similar way you could have a Ugandan play a Kenyan character, again if he looked vaguely Kenyan, but a lad from Listowel would be jarring(unless he was of African descent of course). It wouldn't exactly bother me on any "race" level, but it would tend to take me out of the illusion. Though I'm reminded of Colin Farrell playing Alexander the Great and his mates as "Irish" and understood the reasoning, as him and his lot were kinda outsiders in Greece to some degree, though I was also thinking the flic should have been renamed Alex the only bleeeedin deadly.

ohnonotgmail

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair F an Irish actor playing a Sicilian could work and look "correct", if they looked Italian enough anyway. A Black lad would be jarring. In a similar way you could have a Ugandan play a Kenyan character, again if he looked vaguely Kenyan, but a lad from Listowel would be jarring(unless he was of African descent of course). It wouldn't exactly bother me on any "race" level, but it would tend to take me out of the illusion. Though I'm reminded of Colin Farrell playing Alexander the Great and his mates as "Irish" and understood the reasoning, as him and his lot were kinda outsiders in Greece to some degree, though I was also thinking the flic should have been renamed Alex the only bleeeedin deadly.

While the accents were a bit silly i'm not sure they had the option of sounding authentic. Do we even know what macedonians of that time period sound like? Would the general public know? Mick Lally popping up was a bit jarring mind.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair F an Irish actor playing a Sicilian could work and look "correct", if they looked Italian enough anyway. A Black lad would be jarring. In a similar way you could have a Ugandan play a Kenyan character, again if he looked vaguely Kenyan, but a lad from Listowel would be jarring(unless he was of African descent of course). It wouldn't exactly bother me on any "race" level, but it would tend to take me out of the illusion. Though I'm reminded of Colin Farrell playing Alexander the Great and his mates as "Irish" and understood the reasoning, as him and his lot were kinda outsiders in Greece to some degree, though I was also thinking the flic should have been renamed Alex the only bleeeedin deadly.

A black man playing a Sicilian would be rather fitting in a way. :pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZUJKXs6W-4

Franz Von Peppercorn

Wibbs wrote: »

To be fair F an Irish actor playing a Sicilian could work and look "correct", if they looked Italian enough anyway. A Black lad would be jarring. In a similar way you could have a Ugandan play a Kenyan character, again if he looked vaguely Kenyan, but a lad from Listowel would be jarring(unless he was of African descent of course). It wouldn't exactly bother me on any "race" level, but it would tend to take me out of the illusion. Though I'm reminded of Colin Farrell playing Alexander the Great and his mates as "Irish" and understood the reasoning, as him and his lot were kinda outsiders in Greece to some degree, though I was also thinking the flic should have been renamed Alex the only bleeeedin deadly.

The very fact that people got upset about those accents is fairly telling. Apparently people in the past if they (were to) speak English would only speak as English or American accents.

Chips Lovell

Francesca Sour Stomach wrote: »

Yeah fantastic mini-series adaptation of Les Miserables (no singing) on BBC at the moment with Javert, the police inspector played by a black actor, David Oyelowo. He's excellent but doesn't this colour-blind approach lack sense when there are also films revolving around skin colour? A black man would not have been a senior police officer in Paris in the first half of the 19th century.

Actually, the book says that Javert was born in prison, the son of a "fortune-teller" and a galley slave. It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that he'd have been at least dark skinned.

TheValeyard

Hows this even an issue?

If you want a film to be historically accurate, there are definitely going to be some prerequisites for certain roles in terms of colour. A black man playing Michael Collins would be ludicrous as would a White man playing a Barack Obama Biopic. Colour matters for historical roles not so much sexuality or country of Origin. Like how Robert Carlyle (Scottish) played the role of Hitler (Austrian) brilliantly. Morgan Freeman as Hitler would make zero sense. Historical Godwin.

Chips Lovell

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

Morgan Freeman as Hitler...

I'd pay to see that.

Thomas_IV

Sardonicat wrote: »

Really is it any different to having a blonde haired, blue eyed Jesus as we did in years gone by? I'm not sure there has ever been an "ethnically correct" actor cast in that role.

I think that in Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ the 'ethnically correctness' was met in some ways.

ohnonotgmail

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

...Morgan Freeman as Hitler ...

I'd pay to see that.

Samuel L Jackson as Hitler. I would definitely pay to watch that.

TheValeyard

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

I'd pay to see that.

Mein Kampf, as read by Morgan Freeman.


“I know that fewer people are won over by the written word than by the spoken word and that every great movement on this earth owes its growth to great speakers and not to great writers.”




Could you read that in the Morgan Freeman voice in your head?

TheValeyard

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Samuel L Jackson as Hitler. I would definitely pay to watch that.

Not quite Hitler but....

Varik

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

While the accents were a bit silly i'm not sure they had the option of sounding authentic. Do we even know what macedonians of that time period sound like? Would the general public know? Mick Lally popping up was a bit jarring mind.

It's something you've to think about when dubbing, we're lucking that most of the media we consume is English.

For dubbing they've to on top of translating and syncing to the video, they've to try to convey some of the characterisation that the actor is showing in their voice.

Franz Von Peppercorn

What about Thandie Newton as Queen Elizabeth.

branie2

Just for dramatic purposes, in my opinion.

Wibbs

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

While the accents were a bit silly i'm not sure they had the option of sounding authentic. Do we even know what macedonians of that time period sound like? Would the general public know? Mick Lally popping up was a bit jarring mind.

. Plus to the wider audience(IE American) they'd not notice and only notice the differences between him and his lot and the rest.

Ancient Greek is an odd one. Spoken by millions up to around the 15th century and then just goes extinct. No native speakers left, so we can make very educated guesses, but don't really know how it sounded.

Alun

cgcsb wrote: »

Perhaps they were in existence yes, although exceptionally rare, allowed to have an inter racial relationship? not on your nelly.

DNA analysis of people who claim to be 100% white Anglo Saxon Londoners has revealed that quite a few of them have distant relatives who did exactly that.

branie2

A black man played Achilles in a recent TV adaptation of the Iliad, and there's a black man playing Javert in the TV series Les Miserables at the moment; doesn't bother me in the slightest.

QuintusFabius

It's not offence it's just stupid to make historical pieces this way.
What about Denzel Washington playing JFK in an historical drama ?
Or how about Brad Pitt playing Nelson Mandella - would the progressives be wetting themselves over those monstrosities ?

QuintusFabius

branie2 wrote: »

A black man played Achilles in a recent TV adaptation of the Iliad, and there's a black man playing Javert in the TV series Les Miserables at the moment; doesn't bother me in the slightest.

How progressive of you, what about more famous historical characters ?
would it work ?

Wibbs

Alun wrote: »

DNA analysis of people who claim to be 100% white Anglo Saxon Londoners has revealed that quite a few of them have distant relatives who did exactly that.

Yep. While Blacks or any other non locals could be viewed with suspicion, this was pretty low key as for a start the numbers were tiny. That tends to be how things go with new groups coming into a place. Small numbers are not much of an issue, even welcomed, but when numbers grow the locals tend to get twitchy. That happened in Tudor times when more Africans showed up because of wars etc. Then it all got a bit No Blacks Here pretty rapidly.

The other aspect was that the North Atlantic slavery thing hadn't happened yet and slavery itself was banned pretty much everywhere in Europe so that association wasn't there. So an African man or woman who was a baptised christian and had a role in society would not be off limits for marriage.

Shakespeare is informative here. If you look at Othello you get all the attitudes, positive and negative that the Tudor mind had around African folks, particularly African men.