Man, 65, convicted of purchasing sex in landmark prostitution case

theendof123

The Nordic model doesn’t offer an “ethical” framework for criminalization, because ethical criminalization just doesn’t exist. Operating under the shadows of illegality, sex workers are currently denied basic workers’ rights—and this definitely won’t stop, even if the weight of persecution falls on the person buying rather than selling.

Moreover, arguments that the Nordic model combats sexual exploitation could not be further from the mark. Reasoning such as this rests on the dangerous conflation of sex trafficking and consensual sex work, one which leads to paternalistic policing rather than any effective measures to help trafficking victims. Legislative frameworks such as these do little to prevent trafficking given that they in no way constitute an attack on organized crime. Ultimately all that it does is make working conditions considerably less safe.

It’s time to wake up to the fact that the Nordic model is nothing more than another moralistic effort to clamp down on sex workers’ livelihoods. If legislators truly want to make escorts safe, they need to avoid all forms of criminalization and ultimately recognize sex work as a valid form of work. We need to stop tinkering with a broken system and start taking decisive action. It is vital that we push for the only solution to improve the lives of sex workers: complete decriminalization.

Proponents of end demand” approach generally, also fail to note the means by which the Swedish police have enforced this model. They have employed overly invasive methods of surveillance towards sex workers, even observing them engage in sex with clients before arresting the client and insisting that the sex worker accompany them to the police station as a “witness,” only to be subjected to humiliating strip searches and questioning, and often returning home to find that their landlords have been threatened with pimping or brothel-keeping charges if the sex worker is not immediately evicted. While Sweden is touted as a bastion of human rights progress, including its humane police and prison practices, their stigmatization and harassment of sex workers is a disturbing departure from this.

For these and other reasons, the Swedish model is rejected by groups such as the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, Freedom Network USA, Anti-Slavery International, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International to name but a few. These groups and many others embrace a harm-reduction model which empowers sex workers to assure their own safety, well-being and dignity. This model, employed in New Zealand and the Australian state of New South Wales, calls for full decriminalization of all aspects of voluntary adult commercial sex, combined with comprehensive social support services. Full decriminalization has been shown to increase sex worker safety, transform the relationship between sex workers and law enforcement from adversarial to collaborative, and without any measurable increase in the number of providers or clients.

JupiterKid

Just legalise and regulate prostitution FFS. Holding onto hypocritial Victorian so-called morals is idiotic and a waste of time, resources and energy. “Vice” is a term that belongs to the 19th and 20th centuries, not the 21st.

As for Ruhama, they are the old religious right wing hiding behind a veneer of supposed feminism. Take a look at who are behind this organisation - and the immense damage they did to generations of Irish women.

It’s pretty pathetic seeing prosecutions for procuring prostitution in the year 2019.

Ulysses Gaze

JupiterKid wrote: »

Just legalise and regulate prostitution FFS. Holding onto hypocritial Victorian so-called morals is idiotic and a waste of time, resources and energy. “Vice” is a term that belongs to the 19th and 20th centuries, not the 21st.

As for Ruhama, they are the old religious right wing hiding behind a veneer of supposed feminism. Take a look at who are behind this organisation - and the immense damage they did to generations of Irish women.

It’s pretty pathetic seeing prosecutions for procuring prostitution in the year 2019.

It's pathetic that any feminist would support Ruhama given the damage wrought on generations of Irish women by the religious organisations behind its curtain.

And the fact that these religious orders have still not paid out the reparations they should have for their past transgressions, and are not being pushed to do so, is disgraceful.

Hotblack Desiato

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Think the ould god botherer guff hasn’t been relevant in Irish society for the last 30 odd years anyway HD

One word.

Ruhama.

paleoperson

Well First Off... wrote: »

How was he busted?

Kate McGrew, director of Sex Workers Alliance Ireland says on Twitter he was caught in a raid on a "so-called brothel".

https://twitter.com/SWAIIreland/status/1087419355221184515

So, she's clearly disputing that it was some sort of sinister sordid operation and there was some justice to it. It seems it was more of a random thing....

Imagine being so unlucky that not only are you not getting women as you would like, but when you try to go to a prostitute out of all the hundreds/thousands who go every day and THIS happens, ending up with your name in the paper, a court date and everything. It's like winning the inverse lottery.

Maybe the reason they caught him is the younger lads were out the door in a shot but the old fella was too slow.

Kidchameleon

One eyed Jack wrote: »

...the industry overwhelmingly exploits women...

The trafficking and exploitation industry's do, the consensual transaction of money for sexual access does not exploit anyone so why is it illigal? There are plenty of women (and men btw) who willingly provide the service. You know there is a difference but you will not get off your soap box.

sophiexyz

When gay bath houses that provide extras are raided, expect the SJW mob to be bamboozled, who is the bigger victim, gay prostitutes or sexually frustrated gay men seeking relief getting prosecuted?
Which side will they support?

Well First Off...

How was he busted?

sophiexyz

Well First Off... wrote: »

How was he busted?

Manually, all over her chest

Well First Off...

sophiexyz wrote: »

Manually, all over her chest

Seriously, how'd they catch him? Was she undercover?

jaxxx

theendof123 wrote: »

The Nordic model doesn’t offer an “ethical” framework for criminalization, because ethical criminalization just doesn’t exist. Operating under the shadows of illegality, sex workers are currently denied basic workers’ rights—and this definitely won’t stop, even if the weight of persecution falls on the person buying rather than selling.

Moreover, arguments that the Nordic model combats sexual exploitation could not be further from the mark. Reasoning such as this rests on the dangerous conflation of sex trafficking and consensual sex work, one which leads to paternalistic policing rather than any effective measures to help trafficking victims. Legislative frameworks such as these do little to prevent trafficking given that they in no way constitute an attack on organized crime. Ultimately all that it does is make working conditions considerably less safe.

It’s time to wake up to the fact that the Nordic model is nothing more than another moralistic effort to clamp down on sex workers’ livelihoods. If legislators truly want to make escorts safe, they need to avoid all forms of criminalization and ultimately recognize sex work as a valid form of work. We need to stop tinkering with a broken system and start taking decisive action. It is vital that we push for the only solution to improve the lives of sex workers: complete decriminalization.

Proponents of end demand” approach generally, also fail to note the means by which the Swedish police have enforced this model. They have employed overly invasive methods of surveillance towards sex workers, even observing them engage in sex with clients before arresting the client and insisting that the sex worker accompany them to the police station as a “witness,” only to be subjected to humiliating strip searches and questioning, and often returning home to find that their landlords have been threatened with pimping or brothel-keeping charges if the sex worker is not immediately evicted. While Sweden is touted as a bastion of human rights progress, including its humane police and prison practices, their stigmatization and harassment of sex workers is a disturbing departure from this.

For these and other reasons, the Swedish model is rejected by groups such as the Global Alliance Against Traffic in Women, Freedom Network USA, Anti-Slavery International, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch, and Amnesty International to name but a few. These groups and many others embrace a harm-reduction model which empowers sex workers to assure their own safety, well-being and dignity. This model, employed in New Zealand and the Australian state of New South Wales, calls for full decriminalization of all aspects of voluntary adult commercial sex, combined with comprehensive social support services. Full decriminalization has been shown to increase sex worker safety, transform the relationship between sex workers and law enforcement from adversarial to collaborative, and without any measurable increase in the number of providers or clients.

I felt this needed to be emphasised, for anyone out there that are eating out of Ruhama's hands, too ignorant and naive to see that human trafficking and consensual prostitution are in fact NOT mutually exclusive. Ah but sure what do the likes of Amnesty International know like. It's not like it's their business to be concerned with human rights or anything!

Johnny Red Cab

Well First Off... wrote: »

Seriously, how'd they catch him? Was she undercover?

Nope. He was caught up in a raid.

They obtained a confession that he had paid for sex. If he had stayed quiet and denied all he would have not have been convicted.

WinnyThePoo

Anna Bacic was trying to get the Swedish model here. I heard her once on the radio talking about it.

Funnily enough the same radio show the week before had a high up gothenburg police chief explaining how the model was a failure and it was pushing prostitution further underground.

Anna Bacic made it very clear they weren't looking at any other alternatives expect for the Swedish model.

jaxxx

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Anna Bacic was trying to get the Swedish model here. I heard her once on the radio talking about it.

Funnily enough the same radio show the week before had a high up gothenburg police chief explaining how the model was a failure and it was pushing prostitution further underground.

Anna Bacic made it very clear they weren't looking at any other alternatives expect for the Swedish model.

And that right there should tell you that the main objective of this law wasn't about protecting sex workers or combating human trafficking, it was simply about criminalising paid sex.

skooterblue2

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

Nope. He was caught up in a raid.

They obtained a confession that he had paid for sex. If he had stayed quiet and denied all he would have not have been convicted.

Look that Pizza delivery man/ Pool boy story only works in the movies.... I know cos I tried it. Didnt turn out well :D:D:D:D

skooterblue2

StereoSound wrote: »

He should have went to Thailand

I would be careful over there the contents on the cover might not match the contents of the box. Buy local where possible. :rolleyes:

skooterblue2

Austria! wrote: »

Do you mean because of the stigma or because they're in a precarious situation thanks to all their customers being criminals?


Anyway, if I loved her and thought she loved me, then yeah, I would.

How would you feel about sticking your spoon into my porridge?

If you want her recognised a legitimate trade then so be it......
Imagine me meeting you down the street and telling you to say thanks to your daughter for a nice bit of work done last week. "see I had this problem where the missus would make me wear a gall gag and peg me at the same time. But your daughter just gave it loads, especially down the last furlong. I am going to pass her card around to all my mates. Some of them have special interest if you know what I mean. Not sure whether to call her a plumber for the next job."

MonkieSocks

This is how the raid went down

Austria!

skooterblue2 wrote: »

If you want her recognised a legitimate trade then so be it......
Imagine me meeting you down the street and telling you to say thanks to your daughter for a nice bit of work done last week. "see I had this problem where the missus would make me wear a gall gag and peg me at the same time. But your daughter just gave it loads, especially down the last furlong. I am going to pass her card around to all my mates. Some of them have special interest if you know what I mean. Not sure whether to call her a plumber for the next job."

Yeah, in a world without stigma, I really wouldn't be bothered.



But then realistically, you have to ask yourself is having daughters the ultimate cuckoldry?

professore

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Anna Bacic was trying to get the Swedish model here. I heard her once on the radio talking about it.

Funnily enough the same radio show the week before had a high up gothenburg police chief explaining how the model was a failure and it was pushing prostitution further underground.

Anna Bacic made it very clear they weren't looking at any other alternatives expect for the Swedish model.

I think you mean Ivana Bacik. She has lived in the ivory tower of Trinitay her whole life. Not a person who lives in the real world.

skooterblue2

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

Nope. He was caught up in a raid.

They obtained a confession that he had paid for sex. If he had stayed quiet and denied all he would have not have been convicted.

Sweet jesus. All he should have said was he was a plumber just quoting for a job. "That is the only reason I was there, I do not know these women or what is their business. My business here was to give a quote for a trades job", while being under the advisement of a lawyer. The cost over benefit of pursuing a prosecution wouldnt be worth it in that case. But here "Chatty Cathy" gave them a whole confession and possibly gave them a tour of the brothel as well.

Moral of the story is if you are caught, "No comment until my solicitor arrives". When you call for a solicitor over the phone, the less you say the better.

Despite what you may think you would have a very hard time disproving his story in court if had said nothing until the solicitor arrived.

Berserker

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Sweet jesus. All he should have said was he was a plumber just quoting for a job. "That is the only reason I was there, I do not know these women or what is their business. My business here was to give a quote for a trades job", while being under the advisement of a lawyer. The cost over benefit of pursuing a prosecution wouldnt be worth it in that case. But here "Chatty Cathy" gave them a whole confession and possibly gave them a tour of the brothel as well.

Moral of the story is if you are caught, "No comment until my solicitor arrives". When you call for a solicitor over the phone, the less you say the better.

Despite what you may think you would have a very hard time disproving his story in court if had said nothing until the solicitor arrived.

Been watching '24 Hours in Police Custody', have we? Think the police would have been able to prove that he wasn't a plumber giving someone a quote quite easily. He was caught in the premises by the police. Is being present in a brothel an offence?

Johnny Red Cab

Is being present in a brothel an offence?

Not as a punter no.

They could have caught him balls deep and without a confession they would be unable to prove the elements of the offence.
The police would have to have witnessed him handing over money. The only ways that would happen would be if the police were using an undercover operative and/or there was a camera in the room.

skooterblue2

Berserker wrote: »

Been watching '24 Hours in Police Custody', have we? Think the police would have been able to prove that he wasn't a plumber giving someone a quote quite easily. He was caught in the premises by the police. Is being present in a brothel an offence?

No I had that from a lawyer who was telling me about drugs case. He said first mistake was talking to the guards without a lawyer. Second mistake admitting it was his, and the third was admitting it was cannabis. It was only a negligible amount(far less than 10,000 worth need to make a test viable to secure a conviction). If he admitted he was in a brothel then the guards didnt have to prove it was a brothel. Remember the man regardless of what you think of him is innocent in the eyes of the law until proven guilty.

The man could have said he was any other trade from removing rubbish to tech support or giving a quote for painting and it would be difficult to prosecute. How ever if he was going at it like hells bells then he could have said it was just a one night stand.

It was probably that he got such a shock that he started talking or he got gobby with the police. I hope I am still able to hoist the flag up the pole at 65.

As for Ibrihim Halawa, its been debated on Boards to death. The lad was caught on video lying and his sister were caught out and out. Egyptian law is very different to the protections you have in Europe. As I have said before "That was an Egyptian matter".

skooterblue2

Johnny Red Cab wrote: »

Not as a punter no.

They could have caught him balls deep and without a confession they would be unable to prove the elements of the offence.
The police would have to have witnessed him handing over money. The only ways that would happen would be if the police were using an undercover operative and/or there was a camera in the room.

I am still going with the shock of the arrest and raid, he started talking. I cannot say I would have done differently under the same stress. Remember Rathoat is still a small rural place still and well ....... in that size of a community? The man probably has kids and grandkids.

I would like to think I would say nothing until a solicitor arrived.

skooterblue2

professore wrote: »

I think you mean Ivana Bacik. She has lived in the ivory tower of Trinitay her whole life. Not a person who lives in the real world.

That isn't true, she was a senator once and went to interview in RTE once or twice.... but yeah aparts from that. I am not sure she has even practiced law. You should her some of her view that women shouldnt be incarcerated and what not even if found guilty. I once foolish said she would be a viable presidential candidate (as in she had the public profile, the understanding of law and presentably, would both accept and could be elected), I was quickly put straight on that one. Ever hear about herself and the dispute with Marty Whealan (Yes that Marty Whealan) when he was running with the IRSP/INLA and he send a few pals around to ask her to step down from the student presidency race. LOADS of skeletons in that closet.

Berserker

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That isn't true, she was a senator once and went to interview in RTE once or twice.... but yeah aparts from that. I am not sure she has even practiced law. You should her some of her view that women shouldnt be incarcerated and what not even if found guilty. I once foolish said she would be a viable presidential candidate (as in she had the public profile, the understanding of law and presentably, would both accept and could be elected), I was quickly put straight on that one. Ever hear about herself and the dispute with Marty Whealan (Yes that Marty Whealan) when he was running with the IRSP/INLA and he send a few pals around to ask her to step down from the student presidency race. LOADS of skeletons in that closet.

She has a degree and Masters in Law. She practises as a barrister, and teaches courses in criminal law still, I believe.

sbsquarepants

skooterblue2 wrote: »

I was quickly put straight on that one. Ever hear about herself and the dispute with Marty Whealan (Yes that Marty Whealan) when he was running with the IRSP/INLA and he send a few pals around to ask her to step down from the student presidency race. LOADS of skeletons in that closet.

Sorry, what the ****?

Marty Whelan........ INLA.......I must be tripping?:D

skooterblue2

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Sorry, what the ****?

Marty Whelan........ INLA.......I must be tripping?:D

Yeah he hoisted the Starry Plough in Trinity college Dublin. That is a little know part of his life

AndrewJRenko

skooterblue2 wrote: »

That isn't true, she was a senator once and went to interview in RTE once or twice.... but yeah aparts from that. I am not sure she has even practiced law. You should her some of her view that women shouldnt be incarcerated and what not even if found guilty. I once foolish said she would be a viable presidential candidate (as in she had the public profile, the understanding of law and presentably, would both accept and could be elected), I was quickly put straight on that one. Ever hear about herself and the dispute with Marty Whealan (Yes that Marty Whealan) when he was running with the IRSP/INLA and he send a few pals around to ask her to step down from the student presidency race. LOADS of skeletons in that closet.

Bacik has been Reid Professor of Criminal Law, Criminology and Penology at Trinity College, Dublin (TCD) Law School since 1996, and was a made a Fellow of Trinity College Dublin in 2005, so yeah, it's safe to say she knows a bit more about the law than you or me.


As for Marty Whelan, he's 12 years older than her - so were they really in Trinity at the same time? No mention of being at college at all on his wiki. It says that he went straight from school to work in insurance, as many people did in those days. When did this amazing incident happen?