Calls for Graham Linehan to be removed from Prime Debate on transgender issues!

klaaaz

suicide_circus wrote: »

probably cowering in fear lest their opinions get them in trouble

Zorya wrote: »

It's growing into a huge kick back movement. And Klaaaz knows this, most likely. Even last night all over the UK ''ReSisters'' put Woman - Adult Human Female tee-shirts on public monuments. I am not part of any movement, feminist or otherwise, nor do I ever intend to be, but I am glad to see the movement against irrational ideology grow legs.

Zorya wrote: »

That's a genuine fear. Even my husband asks me not to speak up as he is worried I will be abused or attacked. A lot of people are being silent because they are afraid.

In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.

jam_mac_jam

Yes, you cannot say what you really think or even debate or question the issue or you are a monster. There is literally a lynch mob mentality on twitter.

So I am not surprised feminists are afraid to speak up.

Zorya

klaaaz wrote: »

In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.

You personally have accused me of hate speech and being a radical. In Ireland.

Gravelly

klaaaz wrote: »

In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.

As I've asked previously on this thread, why are you putting so much store by the actions of 1000 people? That is approximately 0.04% of the population - what has you so sure they represent anything other than themselves?

jam_mac_jam

klaaaz wrote: »

In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.

Of course their opinions will get them in trouble in Ireland.

klaaaz

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

You may want to look at women’s forums online. I linked to mumsnet earlier. Don’t see what misogynist men have to do with it. In fact these women cheer on Linehan and consider the woke men misogynistic

I don’t know how representative these groups are but they are clearly a strong cross section of society.

Mumsnet is not Irish. They are not representative of Ireland's society, in fact using an online forum as a barometer of views in society is wrong as the vast majority of the population do not use online forums and online forums tend to attract radicals.
Even this forum After Hours seems to only have maybe a couple of hundred users, people I know outside here never even heard of boards for example or don't even use Twitter.

Gravelly

klaaaz wrote: »

In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.

klaaaz wrote: »

using an online forum as a barometer of views in society is wrong as the vast majority of the population do not use online forums and online forums tend to attract radicals.

Do you not see the utter hypocrisy of your position, clearly demonstrated above?

klaaaz

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yes, you cannot say what you really think or even debate or question the issue or you are a monster. There is literally a lynch mob mentality on twitter.

So I am not surprised feminists are afraid to speak up.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Of course their opinions will get them in trouble in Ireland.

Twitter :rolleyes: Maybe perhaps the majority of Twitter users disagree with people who have radical views?

Gravelly wrote: »

As I've asked previously on this thread, why are you putting so much store by the actions of 1000 people? That is approximately 0.04% of the population - what has you so sure they represent anything other than themselves?

Over 1000 Irish feminists who are part of Irish feminist groups disagree with Zorya's(and others) view. By your logic, about a dozen posters here who support that view only represent .0000004% of the population!

Gravelly

klaaaz wrote: »

Over 1000 Irish feminists who are part of Irish feminist groups disagree with Zorya's(and others) view. By your logic, about a dozen posters here who support that view only represent .0000004% of the population!

By my logic? You know that maths doesn't bend itself to "my logic" right?

I haven't seen anybody claim that the views of the posters here prove anything, as you keep doing with your "but 1000 feminists disagree with you" claims.

jam_mac_jam

klaaaz wrote: »

Twitter :rolleyes: Maybe perhaps the majority of Twitter users disagree with people who have radical views?



Over 1000 Irish feminists who are part of Irish feminist groups disagree with Zorya's(and others) view. By your logic, about a dozen posters here who support that view only represent .0000004% of the population!

Sorry, if I could figure out what your point is I would argue with you. You are saying people aren't afraid to speak out? or that they should be afraid to speak out?

klaaaz

Gravelly wrote: »

Do you not see the utter hypocrisy of your position, clearly demonstrated above?

Elaborate?

Gravelly

klaaaz wrote: »

Elaborate?

I did, read the post.

In case you can't get it from that (I suspect you can, but are being deliberately obtuse), you are claiming that the views of people on a forum are somehow worthless and "radical" while at the same time, claiming that the view of "1000 feminists" is unquestionably the correct one (and not radical at all :rolleyes: ).

klaaaz

Gravelly wrote: »

I did, read the post.

In case you can't get it from that (I suspect you can, but are being deliberately obtuse), you are claiming that the views of people on a forum are somehow worthless and "radical" while at the same time, claiming that the view of "1000 feminists" is unquestionably the correct one (and not radical at all :rolleyes: ).

There is a big difference between activist groups for feminism who are from a range of sections of society in Ireland meeting up regularly in real life on campaign issues and to sign their names to a letter saying feminists have no problem with trans people than a small bunch of anonymous users on a boards thread spouting opinions based on some unfounded conspiracy.

jam_mac_jam

klaaaz wrote: »

There is a big difference between activist groups for feminism who are from a range of sections of society in Ireland meeting up regularly in real life on campaign issues and to sign their names to a letter saying feminists have no problem with trans people than a small bunch of anonymous users on a boards thread spouting opinions based on some unfounded conspiracy.

Right, and there is no reason that people would need to worry about stating their opinion or questioning the thought police? That's all a conspiracy. That's all people's imagination.

These opinions do not exist? Everybody agrees with you?


You can deny people's opinions all you like. This doesn't change the fact they have a right to have them and that they do have them.

The Bishop Basher

klaaaz wrote: »

activist groups for feminism who are from a range of sections of society in Ireland

I'm sure they're a diverse and rational bunch alright.. :rolleyes:

Their collective opinion is meaningless here and doesn't support your argument in the way you think it does..

klaaaz

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Sorry, if I could figure out what your point is I would argue with you. You are saying people aren't afraid to speak out? or that they should be afraid to speak out?

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Right, and there is no reason that people would need to worry about stating their opinion or questioning the thought police? That's all a conspiracy. That's all people's imagination.

These opinions do not exist?

You can deny people's opinions all you like. This doesn't change the fact they have a right to have them and that they do have them.

No, people in Ireland aren't afraid to speak out. Even Mr Linehan a dissenting voice who resides in the UK spoke out on RTE. We have a range of groups(legal, medical, feminist, children's organisations, unions and our beloved politicians from all persuasions) who have supported the process of legal gender recognition of transgender people.

jam_mac_jam

klaaaz wrote: »

No, people in Ireland aren't afraid to speak out. Even Mr Linehan a dissenting voice who resides in the UK spoke out on RTE. We have a range of groups(legal, medical, feminist, children's organisations, unions and our beloved politicians from all persuasions) who have supported the process of legal gender recognition of transgender people.

Well seeing as everyone is in agreement with you there is nothing to worry about then is there. I am sure we are all imagining the thought police.

Gravelly

klaaaz wrote: »

There is a big difference between activist groups for feminism who are from a range of sections of society in Ireland meeting up regularly in real life on campaign issues and to sign their names to a letter saying feminists have no problem with trans people than a small bunch of anonymous users on a boards thread spouting opinions based on some unfounded conspiracy.

You believe an organised group of feminist activists would have a more diverse opinion, better aligned with public opinion, than a group of random strangers on an internet forum?

Seriously like?

Sittingpretty

klaaaz wrote: »

Again, you're quoting a single person's blog from the UK. This is Ireland which is not the UK.

Over a thousand Irish feminists disagree with you, where are the Irish feminists who agree with your radical views?

It’s not a radical view that a trans woman is not equivalent to a biological women.

It’s offensive to biological women.

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Mumsnet is not Irish. They are not representative of Ireland's society,

Actually I've seen a large thread on mumsnet from Irish women who are uncomfortable with extreme gender ideology and believe it clashes with women's rights. And yes many of them are afraid to speak out publicly.

Perhaps if you engage with the people who don't agree with you, and actually listen to their reasoned arguments rather than rush to brand them bigots and shut them down, you might learn something. You claim acknowledging biology is denying that trans women exist and transphobic (it isn't), yet you deny that a lot of people don't subscribe to your ideology, literally you deny that those women exist. Well, they do and there are many of them and growing. Slapping a terf label on them isn't really going to shut them up the way you want it to.

B0jangles

Sittingpretty wrote: »

It’s not a radical view that a trans woman is not equivalent to a biological women.

It’s offensive to biological women.

Irish cis woman here. Not offended.

More offended by the usual boards suspects feeling so extremely entitled to speak on behalf of irish women.

klaaaz

Sittingpretty wrote: »

It’s not a radical view that a trans woman is not equivalent to a biological women.

It’s offensive to biological women.

Do you speak on behalf of women? Don't think you do, many feminists disagree with you as illustrated, not just them but a huge range of women from civic society. Will you be mounting a protest at how the HSE treat gender dysphoria for trans women? https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Actually I've seen a large thread on mumsnet from Irish women who are uncomfortable with extreme gender ideology and believe it clashes with women's rights. And yes many of them are afraid to speak out publicly.

Perhaps if you engage with the people who don't agree with you, and actually listen to their reasoned arguments rather than rush to brand them bigots and shut them down, you might learn something. You claim acknowledging biology is denying that trans women exist and transphobic (it isn't), yet you deny that a lot of people don't subscribe to your ideology, literally you deny that those women exist. Well, they do and there are many of them and growing. Slapping a terf label on them isn't really going to shut them up the way you want it to.

Anyone on an international internet forum can claim to be Irish and living here in Ireland, widely open to abuse. Nice try playing the victim card using a handful of boards user's as your backup :rolleyes:, perhaps you also should direct your ire at the medical community who say a person can alter their sex to be a member of the opposite sex. https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

Zorya

B0jangles wrote: »

Irish cis woman here. Not offended.

More offended by the usual boards suspects feeling so extremely entitled to speak on behalf of irish women.

If you are by any chance referring to me I have always made it crystal clear that I speak on behalf of myself and do not seek to be affiliated with or speak on behalf of any group, including ''Irish women'' and most certainly not Irish ''cis'' women.

Gravelly

B0jangles wrote: »

More offended by the usual boards suspects feeling so extremely entitled to speak on behalf of irish women.

klaaaz wrote: »

Do you speak on behalf of women?[/url]

Snap!

B0jangles

Zorya wrote: »

If you are by any chance referring to me I have always made it crystal clear that I speak on behalf of myself and do not seek to be affiliated with or speak on behalf of any group, including ''Irish women'' and most certainly not Irish ''cis'' women.

What? No, sorry, no idea who you are or what positions you hold.

ceadaoin.

klaaaz wrote: »

Do you speak on behalf of women? Don't think you do, many feminists disagree with you as illustrated, not just them but a huge range of women from civic society. Will you be mounting a protest at how the HSE treat gender dysphoria for trans women? https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/



Anyone on an international internet forum can claim to be Irish and living here in Ireland, widely open to abuse. Nice try playing the victim card using a handful of boards user's as your backup :rolleyes:, perhaps you also should direct your ire at the medical community who say a person can alter their sex to be a member of the opposite sex. https://www.hse.ie/eng/health/az/g/gender-dysphoria/

Yeah we had this discussion before. I don't care that the hse is publishing non scientific nonsense to appease certain groups . It is not possible to change sex. End of. Every cell in your body is either male or female. Present how you want, take hormones to take on the appearance of the opposite sex, whatever. I absolutely support any persons decision to live how they want and not face discrimination for it. But their chromosomes are not changing and they will never know what it is to be a biological male or female if they aren't one.

Also, I never claimed to speak on behalf of women. It is you who is doing that. I merely pointed out that the women you seem to think don't exist,actually do.

Zorya

klaaaz wrote: »

perhaps you also should direct your ire at the medical community who say a person can alter their sex to be a member of the opposite sex.

Oxford English Dictionary definition of ''sex'' - Either of the two main categories (male and female) into which humans and many other living things are divided on the basis of their reproductive functions; (hence) the members of these categories viewed as a group; the males or females of a particular species, esp. the human race, considered collectively. Occasionally with plural verb.

No one can alter their sex to be a member of the opposite sex. No one.

People can alter their gender expression as I have said. It is not possible to alter biological sex.

Zorya

B0jangles wrote: »

What? No, sorry, no idea who you are or what positions you hold.

Good All cool.

Zorya

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Yeah we had this discussion before. I don't care that the hse is publishing non scientific nonsense to appease certain groups . It is not possible to change sex. End of. Every cell in your body is either male or female. Present how you want, take hormones to take on the appearance of the opposite sex, whatever. I absolutely support any persons decision to live how they want and not face discrimination for it. But their chromosomes are not changing and they will never know what it is to be a biological male or female if they aren't one.

Also, I never claimed to speak on behalf of women. It is you who is doing that. I merely pointed out that the women you seem to think don't exist,actually do.

+1,000,000

Am always relieved when you show up Ceadaoin, so I don't get to feel like the only woman who argues these opinions.

B0jangles

Some of you armchair experts on the genetics of gender and sex (and looking things up in online dictionaries!) should do a little research on chimerism and intersexuality before you make such absolute statements about how there are only 2 sexes and how every cell in your body is either male or female.

(I'm claiming no such expertise either but at least I know enough to know that I am very ignorant on the subject, which is more than 99% of the people posting in this thread)