klaaaz wrote: » Over 1000 Irish feminists who are part of Irish feminist groups disagree with Zorya's(and others) view. By your logic, about a dozen posters here who support that view only represent .0000004% of the population!
jam_mac_jam wrote: » Yes, you cannot say what you really think or even debate or question the issue or you are a monster. There is literally a lynch mob mentality on twitter. So I am not surprised feminists are afraid to speak up.
jam_mac_jam wrote: » Of course their opinions will get them in trouble in Ireland.
Gravelly wrote: » As I've asked previously on this thread, why are you putting so much store by the actions of 1000 people? That is approximately 0.04% of the population - what has you so sure they represent anything other than themselves?
klaaaz wrote: » In Ireland?? Sounds like you and others are concocting a conspiracy story to cover up that over 1000 Irish feminists disagree with you.
klaaaz wrote: » using an online forum as a barometer of views in society is wrong as the vast majority of the population do not use online forums and online forums tend to attract radicals.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » You may want to look at women’s forums online. I linked to mumsnet earlier. Don’t see what misogynist men have to do with it. In fact these women cheer on Linehan and consider the woke men misogynistic I don’t know how representative these groups are but they are clearly a strong cross section of society.
suicide_circus wrote: » probably cowering in fear lest their opinions get them in trouble
Zorya wrote: » It's growing into a huge kick back movement. And Klaaaz knows this, most likely. Even last night all over the UK ''ReSisters'' put Woman - Adult Human Female tee-shirts on public monuments. I am not part of any movement, feminist or otherwise, nor do I ever intend to be, but I am glad to see the movement against irrational ideology grow legs.
Zorya wrote: » That's a genuine fear. Even my husband asks me not to speak up as he is worried I will be abused or attacked. A lot of people are being silent because they are afraid.
Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: » You may want to look at women’s forums online. I linked to mumsnet earlier. Don’t see what misogynist men have to do with it. In fact these women cheer on Linehan and consider the woke men misogynistic I don’t knle how representative these groups are but they are clearly a strong cross section of society.
Zorya wrote: » Just for anyone not up to speed on that issue - 2 people on the ruling council of the Green Party UK KNEW in advance that Aimee Challenor's father had kidnapped, held hostage in his attic and repeatedly raped and electrocuted a 10 year old child while he was acting out his sick fantasy of identifying as a minor and wearing a nappy during the rapes - and still the Green Party UK went ahead and appointed Aimee Challenor, who had retained their father as their election agent after the rapes, as their Equality Spokesperson in the UK.
klaaaz wrote: » Over a thousand Irish feminist activists reject your radical view, as well as the legal, medical community and children's rights organisations. The only ones who agree with you are the misogynistic males and the religious extremists.https://feministire.com/2018/01/22/an-open-letter-to-the-organisers-of-the-we-need-to-talk-tour-from-a-group-of-feminists-in-ireland/
klaaaz wrote: » where are the Irish feminists who agree with your radical views?
Zorya wrote: » You are incorrect. There is a huge ground swell of movements actively beginning to protesthttps://www.bera.ac.uk/blog/the-gender-wars-academic-freedom-and-education (just one tiny example. Am not going to fill pages with links to ongoing protests, discussions, meetings, etc)
Slutmonkey57b wrote: » Tell you what, you answer the question I've asked twice "Does a transwomen have any meaningful experience that allows them to speak on behalf of women, or put themselves forward as women's representatives" If you're prepared to answer a straightforward question about experience and credibility then I'll do "Let me Google that for you". But since I suspect your position on both "I've never heard of Aimee Challenor" and "I'm not answering whether transwomen are qualified" is entirely disingenuous I'm not convinced you'd listen anyway if you didn't get the answer you were looking for.
AndrewJRenko wrote: » So what issues have arisen in Ireland?
klaaaz wrote: » The only ones who agree with you are the misogynistic males and the religious extremists.
the trans-orthodox view that biological sex is a social construct while gendered identities are fixed and innate.
Zorya wrote: » Some say, why should one tell because a transwoman is REALLY a woman, so therefore there is no subterfuge. That's the split. Perhaps it boils down to this - is a transwoman a woman? The ideology is pushing for there to be zero distinction between biological women and trans women. Zero. They are to be accepted as one and the same thing, and therefore there could be no subterfuge in the case of sex . I believe that a woman is an adult human female, and that a transwoman is a transwoman. For that I am considered to be a transphobe, but am willing to accept the existence of that slur as being a consequence of my publicly wishing to uphold empirical biological reality against false ideology. It is up to the courts and wider society to decide as time goes on what they think is the truth. It is difficult at the moment due to the censorship of academic research and open debate. Time will tell.
over a thousand Irish feminists wrote: However, their motives remain clear to us, and we write this letter to show that their exclusionary, discriminatory attitudes to trans people – in particular trans women – are not welcome here in Ireland. We will not sit in silence while the organisers of this meeting peddle ideas and opinions that are actively harmful to the well-being and safety of our comrades. Trans women and men in Ireland have the legal right to self-declare their gender. Trans people and particularly trans women are an inextricable part of our feminist community. The needs of trans people are part of our campaigns. There is no difference between ‘feminists’ spreading transphobic and transmisogynist ideas or spreading racism or homophobia. We can see from your social media posts about your tour and its contents, that your opposition to the GRA is based on the idea that feminist organising and women’s rights will somehow be harmed through trans inclusivity and organising with our trans sisters. We know this is not true. We, the signatories of this letter, organise hand in hand with our trans sisters. Together, cis and trans, we are Irish feminism. Trans women are our sisters; their struggles are ours, our struggles theirs. They were our sisters before any state-issued certification said so and will always be no matter what any legislation says, either now or in the future. In the south of Ireland*, trans women have been able to declare themselves women and have the state change their documentation to reflect that declaration since 2015. The sky has not fallen. Cis women have not lost anything whatsoever from this. If anything, all of Irish feminism has gained: our struggle for bodily autonomy gains in strength and momentum through this victory for our trans sisters. There are few things as feminists in Ireland we can say we have been pleased to see passed by the state. This, although flawed in its lack of recognition of trans children and non-binary people, is one.
rgodard80a wrote: » +1 It's nearly akin to religion. The law allows for religious equality, but that doesn't mean that I have to subscribe to other religious interpretations. The best the trans community can hope for is that legally they are treated equally as women, but that's nowhere near the same as all of society believing they are women.
Zorya wrote: » I believe that a woman is an adult human female, and that a transwoman is a transwoman.
rgodard80a wrote: » Maybe not in Ireland.... but in the UK a woman was jailed for pretending to be a man to have sex with another woman.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/29/woman-pretended-man-two-years-trick-female-friend-sex-found/
One eyed Jack wrote: » There’s sensationalism involved alright, and plenty of it is coming from the chair of the review group of the Gender Recognition Act who is also the executive director of an organisation which made the proposals for the bill in the first place -Ireland’s trans children: ‘I didn’t know what ‘trans’ meant. I just felt that I was a woman’
LLMMLL wrote: » There is little or no case law and thankfully Jack, you dont get to decide the interpretation of an untested law.
AndrewJRenko wrote: » Is it any wonder that trans people have such poor mental health issues and high suicide rates?
One eyed Jack wrote: » Andrew the last thing anyone needs is your pity. When someone in my family is faced with mental health issues, the options you present aren’t my only two options, but to ground your hypothetical scenario in some sort of reality - I have a 14 year old son. If he came to me one day and told me he was struggling with his identity and had read on social media that the only way to allieviate his distress was to transition to his preferred gender, I’d plug out his laptop and tell him get on with his homework.
LLMMLL wrote: » You are posting what I'm saying but your assessment of what I am saying is completely false, so the fact that you quote my posts isn't actually helpful. The complainant (not victim) was not misled as to the nature of the act or identity of the person, and they were not raped or sexually assaulted.There is little or no case law and thankfully Jack, you dont get to decide the interpretation of an untested law. For instance, I don't get to decide that a woman who sleeps with a man she thinks is Scottish has been raped when she discovers he is actually Irish just because I believe it falls under the interpretation of misleading identity. And someone telling me they don't believe the woman was raped in that case is not denying that a woman who is forcefully raped is a victim. They would simply be saying they dont agree with my interpretation of an untested law.
They are irrelevant to whether a case is taken, and whether it is succesful. That is all I'm considering. And its not the feelings of a person who has been sexually assaulted. Its the feelings of a person who feels they have been sexually assaulted.
