With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

Sabre Man

Silent Running wrote: »

The only problem I have with that is that I didn't buy my car to pootle around my local area. That's not what the Ioniq was developed to be either.

I very regularly drive well beyond my car's range, and please don't roll out that old trope "you bought the wrong car". Europeans don't see the Ioniq as just a local runabout, I don't see why we should.

Regarding the cost of charging. I do a regular trip to the UK. The return is just over 1000 kms. In my last car (161 diesel auto) I used to fill up in the unmanned petrol station in Wexford. I wouldn't have to fill up again until I got back to that station. The most I ever had to put in on return was €50.

My last run last month cost me a shade under €38 in electricity. That included one home charge before leaving and 3 free charges while in the UK. The free charges were a bonus that only happen when the chargers go out of contact, they go freevend. If I had to pay those charges, I would have been looking at a similar electric and diesel bill.

My point is that a cost much more than the UK 30p +vat per kW brings me into diesel territory. If we want to convert people to EVs, high public charging fees isn't the way to go about it.

That's the worst case scenario though, and even then an EV is no more expensive than a diesel car. When you also consider local driving with a home charged battery and lower maintenance, you will be much better off with an EV.

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

If you are basing your driving around 100% or even 50% of the charging done on the public network then you are in the wrong car. It does not suit your use case.

I knew this load of shite argument would emerge.

Who are you to tell anyone they are in the wrong car?

I do perfectly fine with the Ioniq, as do many drivers here and across the world. Just because you are afraid to expand your driving horizons doesn't mean we all should.

The wrong car for the planet is the diesel car.

ELM327

Silent Running wrote: »

I knew this load of shite argument would emerge.

Who are you to tell anyone they are in the wrong car?

I do perfectly fine with the Ioniq, as do many drivers here and across the world. Just because you are afraid to expand your driving horizons doesn't mean we all should.

The wrong car for the planet is the diesel car.

Well, that's an interesting well reasoned debate.
I stopped reading after the "load of shite" comment.
If you'd like a serious discussion, like, you know, adults then I am perfectly happy to engage. As you will see from my posting history here I can spout on about EVs all day.

However after the undertones of your post below I'm going to leave it there, there's no reasoning with you as your mind is clearly made up.

Silent Running

ELM327 wrote: »

Well, that's an interesting well reasoned debate.
I stopped reading after the "load of shite" comment.
If you'd like a serious discussion, like, you know, adults then I am perfectly happy to engage. As you will see from my posting history here I can spout on about EVs all day.

Well maybe if you stopped talking down to other car owners. It's not your place to go around telling other owners that they bought the wrong car. Your comment is condescending and above all, normally completely wrong.

Spout all day if you wish, but don't tell me that my personal choice of car was wrong. You know very little about my use, just as I know very little about yours, despite all of your spouting.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

but don't tell me that my personal choice of car was wrong. You know very little about my use

You gave me the impression that you mostly do long distance driving and as such, you mostly have to charge at public fast chargers. And that if a hefty charge for this comes in (say 40-60c/kWh), you might be better of in a diesel.

Did I get the wrong impression?

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

You gave me the impression that you mostly do long distance driving and as such, you mostly have to charge at public fast chargers. And that if a hefty charge for this comes in (say 40-60c/kWh), you might be better of in a diesel.

Did I get the wrong impression?

Financially, maybe. Trip duration including charging, definitely.

Drive quality (smoothness, noise, vibration) I'm better off in the Ioniq.

About 50% of my distance in the last year has been long haul. The other 50% has been anything from 60kms round trip to about 300kms I would consider that short to medium haul. I do a fair bit of charging at destination chargers. Obviously the longer the trip, the more I need rapid chargers. 40-60c wouldn't phase me. It's not all about the money.

I'd rather pay to be able to charge than pay to queue at chargers !

I had to endure the charging network for 9 months for work and I don't recommend it, it will drive most people to the brink !

I suppose a 40 Kwh Leaf can meet the needs of 95% of commuting but it's the long trips that are a pain in the ass.

The long trips are a pain in the ass in a BEV and look at the West, look at the N7 /M9 for feck sake , there is still no working CCS from The East coast of Dublin all the way to Waterford on the City route via the N7/M9 it's a disgrace.

I was at the Ballinasloe charger in December and the Leaf 40 Kwh driver and the Ioniq driver were really fed up of the network, the Leaf driver said that's the last time he's taking the Leaf on the long trips.

No sign of any new chargers and it looks at this stage like it will be 2020 before there's a decent move on in charger installation and probably 2022 before the situation is much better than now considering we're now years behind.

I suppose for the ESB in fairness to them their greatest issues are site location and for instance none of the garages on the N7 would allow the ESB to install any chargers giving insurance reasons as the main concern. ( yeah right ) Hmm, I can fill up with highly flammable liquid after hours but I can't charge my car ? lol

Steve

Anyone have solid €€ figures on what the charging at home costs are?

How many kWh to fully charge - say a leaf - and what are you paying (including the carbon tax on the electricity)?

People are posting figures like 40kWh... in real terms this means 40 units per hour or ~ 20c * 40 = €8 per hour + carbon tax to run??

I wouldn't use that much in diesel.. or am I way off there?

unkel

Steve wrote: »

Anyone have solid €€ figures on what the charging at home costs are?

Yep. Ioniq has 28kWh usable. To charge it from completely empty to completely full uses 28kWh + about 10% for charging losses. So 30.8kWh

At 8c night rate (including VAT and all other per unit charges), this costs me €2.46

I get 190-240km from that. So a touch over 1c/km

Steve

Steve wrote: »

Anyone have solid €€ figures on what the charging at home costs are?

How many kWh to fully charge - say a leaf - and what are you paying (including the carbon tax on the electricity)?

People are posting figures like 40kWh... in real terms this means 40 units per hour or ~ 20c * 40 = €8 per hour + carbon tax to run??

I wouldn't use that much in diesel.. or am I way off there?

In "real terms" you're paying carbon tax on your bill regardless.

I have work charging so about 18,000 - 20,000 Kms of my 30,000 kms is free ,

IF I were to travel this 30,000 odd kms based on lets say 19 kwh/100 Km consumption then I would need 5,703 Kwh of electricity.

If I can charge this all on night rate electricity @7.6 C /Kwh then it would cost me 433 Euro's to travel 30,000 Kms on average or about 476 Euro's including charging losses, around 90% efficiency.

Some people will need to top up during the day some won't. A lot of people drive much less than I do some more.

Diesel car that gets 58 mpg (imp) driving 30,000 Kms would be 20.53 Km per litre over 30,00 Kms = 1,461 litred of diesel @1.26 L = 1,840 Euro's.

I think I'll take me EV with free work charging

Steve

unkel wrote: »

Yep. Ioniq has 28kWh usable. To charge it from completely empty to completely full uses 28kWh + about 10% for charging losses. So 30.8kWh

At 8c night rate (including VAT and all other per unit charges), this costs me €2.46

I get 190-240km from that. So a touch over 1c/km

That's worthwhile alright, thanks.

I just wish I had the money to change and pay for the charger install.

Next door bought a leaf and had the grant to install the electrics, was just trying to put it all in perspective for myself wrt costs.

Deleted User wrote: »

In "real terms" you're paying carbon tax on your bill regardless.

I have work charging so about 18,000 - 20,000 Kms of my 30,000 kms is free ,

IF I were to travel this 30,000 odd kms based on lets say 19 kwh/100 Km consumption then I would need 5,703 Kwh of electricity.

If I can charge this all on night rate electricity @7.6 C /Kwh then it would cost me 433 Euro's to travel 30,000 Kms on average or about 476 Euro's including charging losses, around 90% efficiency.

Some people will need to top up during the day some won't. A lot of people drive much less than I do some more.

Diesel car that gets 58 mpg (imp) driving 30,000 Kms would be 20.53 Km per litre over 30,00 Kms = 1,461 litred of diesel @1.26 L = 1,840 Euro's.

I think I'll take me EV with free work charging

Going forward, I don't think that the 60% of your charging will be free. Once like minded people take up EV's (and I hope they do) then the drop to the tax take from us will be noticed and they fill find some other way to fleece us - just like they did with diesel cars.

unkel

Steve wrote: »

I just wish I had the money to change and pay for the charger install.

Charger install is free :-)

BigAl81

unkel wrote:

Charger install is free :-)

Not really, main installers are charging 980 euro for a standard install of a Zappi, I've gotten a few quotes this week. You'll 600 euro back in grants eventually so net 380 cost.

Andy From Sligo

just been watching a YT vid with a dutch guy living in Cork doing a 750km trip across Ireland in dec 2018 in his renault Zoe and he mentioned at the end about a new public charger just been installed at his local supermarket. 22kw free to use, not ESB, but a company called EasyGo.ie - anyone heard of them? - I wonder if they will be putting more chargers in around Ireland very soon if they are not already?



looks like it can be free to use or pay to use.

unkel

BigAl81 wrote: »

Not really, main installers are charging 980 euro for a standard install of a Zappi, I've gotten a few quotes this week. You'll 600 euro back in grants eventually so net 380 cost.

It is very easy to find a second hand EV charge point and to have it installed by your local electrician, for well under €600. In other words, completely free after the subsidy

Zappi is top of the range, most desirable EV charge point. We'd all like a Tesla P100D Ludicrous brand new, but most of us can only afford a second hand Leaf

I hope you get my analogy...

Steve

Steve wrote: »

Going forward, I don't think that the 60% of your charging will be free. Once like minded people take up EV's (and I hope they do) then the drop to the tax take from us will be noticed and they fill find some other way to fleece us - just like they did with diesel cars.

Work charging probably provided a bit more than 60% of my 30,000 Kms.

The Government can try to charge BIK for charging cars but the reality is that pretty much all electric cars available now can meet my 142 Commute ( and more ) without too much difficulty so if the Government were to charge BIK people will simply just charge at home and they would get nothing anyway + the cost to setup billing would probably not make it worth their while for the cost of electricity.

Those that will benefit the most from work charging would be those who can't charge at home.

Andy From Sligo

unkel wrote: »

It is very easy to find a second hand EV charge point and to have it installed by your local electrician, for well under €600. In other words, completely free after the subsidy

Zappi is top of the range, most desirable EV charge point. We'd all like a Tesla P100D Ludicrous brand new, but most of us can only afford a second hand Leaf

I hope you get my analogy...

that would be surprising , them subsidising when you are buying used charging equipment. i would have thought one of the condition for getting a grant is you must use new equipment and to be fitted by an approved installer to be eligible. But there you go ...

Gumbo

BigAl81 wrote: »

Not really, main installers are charging 980 euro for a standard install of a Zappi, I've gotten a few quotes this week. You'll 600 euro back in grants eventually so net 380 cost.

Zappi is the top dog of chargers currently. Its the BMW of chargers.
Buy an ABL unit, or other make.

I got mine nearly new for €200. Paid €50 for the wiring and RCBO and had it installed as part of home improvement works by my sparks mate.

Total cost was less than €300.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

that would be surprising , them subsidising when you are buying used charging equipment. i would have thought one of the condition for getting a grant is you must use new equipment and to be fitted by an approved installer to be eligible. But there you go ...

Fitted by a registered Electrician, yes. They done care where the unit was bought or for how much.
In fact, I installed mine 2 years ago. No grant as I bought second hand from Scotland but I can do a change of ownership tomorrow to my wife, get a cert from my sparks mate and get €600 from SEAI for doing nothing.

Now id have to throw my mate a few quid, but I think €100 would do it.

Gumbo

For example, there’s a pod point charger in the Facebook group for €200 now.
Probably get it for €180ish maybe.

Then just get it fitted.

ELM327

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just been watching a YT vid with a dutch guy living in Cork doing a 750km trip across Ireland in dec 2018 in his renault Zoe and he mentioned at the end about a new public charger just been installed at his local supermarket. 22kw free to use, not ESB, but a company called EasyGo.ie - anyone heard of them? - I wonder if they will be putting more chargers in around Ireland very soon if they are not already?



looks like it can be free to use or pay to use.

They have put some in at lidls around the country.
Terrible company with a shady past, look up carcharger.ie, it's the same people


Wouldn't be giving them my financials or any PII but I'll happily take their electricity for free!

DrPhilG

I may well be getting a Zappi shortly. What would a 4 year old Rolec 32a be worth these days?

PixelTrawler

We got the Zappi and companion Harvi because down the road I might get solar panels and fit the Eddi with it

All 3 talk and you can set the Zappi to just trickle what the panels produce.

The Harvi sits in the meter cabinet and Eddi connects to the panels.

Its not cheap though, cost us 500 after the grant. That included wiring it half way up the driveway so it can reach two cars.

Andy From Sligo

kceire wrote: »

.......
Fitted by a registered Electrician, yes. They done care where the unit was bought or for how much.
In fact, I installed mine 2 years ago. No grant as I bought second hand from Scotland but I can do a change of ownership tomorrow to my wife, get a cert from my sparks mate and get €600 from SEAI for doing nothing.

Now id have to throw my mate a few quid, but I think €100 would do it.

people who know how to 'work the system' always seem to come off better!

no, joking aside i know what you mean - they are just not that fussy about requirements for it as long as a sparky has installed it

Steve

Deleted User wrote: »

Work charging probably provided a bit more than 60% of my 30,000 Kms.

The Government can try to charge BIK for charging cars but the reality is that pretty much all electric cars available now can meet my 142 Commute ( and more ) without too much difficulty so if the Government were to charge BIK people will simply just charge at home and they would get nothing anyway + the cost to setup billing would probably not make it worth their while for the cost of electricity.

Those that will benefit the most from work charging would be those who can't charge at home.

I am self employed and work from home - mostly - sometimes I have to go on-site and that might mean a 3h drive to somewhere with no charge point and 3h back.

Think I'll have to stick with diesel.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

people who know how to 'work the system' always seem to come off better!

no, joking aside i know what you mean - they are just not that fussy about requirements for it as long as a sparky has installed it

Or, more correctly a REC. I have designed and installed thousands of electrical systems up to 2000A in my 30+ years as an engineer but I can't legally install a measly charger in my own house :rolleyes:

Andy From Sligo

Steve wrote: »

I am self employed and work from home - mostly - sometimes I fave to go on-site and that might mean a 3h drive to somewhere with no charge point and 3h back.

.....

yeah thats bad - ah well hopefully this year the network will drastically be improved and more chargers installed , especially seeing as they are bringing in charges for street chargers (how ironic is that? )

Dakotabigone

Steve, REC regulations brought in to stop Johnny Cash.

Steve

Dakotabigone wrote: »

Steve, REC regulations brought in to stop Johnny Cash.

Oh I know.

Unfortunately registered does not mean competent, it just means they may have served their time as a rafter monkey on domestic house builds...

To put it in motors terms, if the same scheme was implemented, then someone who spent 3 years doing nothing but changing tyres could be a "registered mechanic".

That's off topic though, apologies to the mods, lets leave it at that.

Andy From Sligo

I'm completely fine though wiring up an outdoor 13a socket though and plugging it inside the house and plugging the EV granny cable to the outdoor socket arent I ... it will take hours and hours to charge it up (cause its only 10amps) - but its still doable and better than nothing isnt it?

heres the other thing, a 13a socket is like capable of powering something of around 3,000w so why ddo they limit the granny cable to 10amps charging?

its like a socket in the kitchen is capable of 3,000w and yet they bring out a lot of the standard toasters and kettles at 2000w or less , so they are slower at what they do.

Most probably some european law on the same level why we cannot buy 100w incandescent light bulbs any more or 1800w hoovers ...

Steve

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I'm completely fine though wiring up an outdoor 13a socket though and plugging it inside the house and plugging the EV granny cable to the outdoor socket arent I ... it will take hours and hours to charge it up (cause its only 10amps) - but its still doable and better than nothing isnt it?

heres the other thing, a 13a socket is like capable of powering something of around 3,000w so why ddo they limit the granny cable to 10amps charging?

its like a socket in the kitchen is capable of 3,000w and yet they bring out a lot of the standard toasters and kettles at 2000w or less , so they are slower at what they do.

Most probably some european law on the same level why we cannot buy 100w incandescent light bulbs any more or 1800w hoovers ...

A standard domestic 13A socket can supply 2990W, just under 3kW. It's not just law but is all that it can physically deliver without being a fire risk.

Andy From Sligo

on the subject of street chargers and how you have to apply/register for a card and wait for it to come in the post I am just thinking say if you are miles away from the Dealership ... but you see a nice EV for sale and want to drive it home how can you if you need to charge it up on the route home on street chargers and haven't got a card or card yet? - what happens then?

Its a shame the dealers haven't got a temporary card they can give you even if its valid for something like 48hours to get you out of trouble until you get your own street-charger card .... or can they?