With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

Andy From Sligo

been toying with getting a Renault Zoe EV but now it just seems a bit less attractive with having to rent the batteries, and still having to pay vehicle tax (although €120 per annul is still attractive) but now I have just read that ESB are going to start charging in 2019 for using street chargers.

with ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers is it still worth buying EV?

footnote: - i dont know how much they are planning to charge to use them ... i am not even sure if they know yet

grudgehugger

Depends on your situation.

For me, I only bought my EV (L40) as I knew almost all of my charging would be at home.

I reckon I'm saving close to 2 grand a year with the cheap tax and difference in cost between electricity and diesel (mostly the fuel savings)

Granted I had to pay up for the new car... but I do really like it and the cost savings make it a good deal.

So for me, "charging for charging" is a positive - when I do need a public charger it's less likely someone will be abusing the system and treating the charger as a parking space.

Andy From Sligo

grudgehugger wrote: »

Depends on your situation.

For me, I only bought my EV (L40) as I knew almost all of my charging would be at home.

I reckon I'm saving close to 2 grand a year with the cheap tax and difference in cost between electricity and diesel (mostly the fuel savings)

Granted I had to pay up for the new car... but I do really like it and the cost savings make it a good deal.

So for me, "charging for charging" is a positive - when I do need a public charger it's less likely someone will be abusing the system and treating the charger as a parking space.

thanks for that - you saying about most your charging is done at home, you know the granny cable that plugs into a 13a plug socket does it really take something like 3kw ? - so is that like you have to charge all night at 3kw per hour ? - thats quite hefty and if you left a 3kw fan heater on all night you would really bump up the electricity bill .. mind you i suppose it evens out if you save on buying petrol/diesel

Evd-Burner

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for that - you saying about most your charging is done at home, you know the granny cable that plugs into a 13a plug socket does it really take something like 3kw ? - so is that like you have to charge all night at 3kw per hour ? - thats quite hefty and if you left a 3kw fan heater on all night you would really bump up the electricity bill .. mind you i suppose it evens out if you save on buying petrol/diesel

you could get a day night meter and it's half the price to charge at night.

Andy From Sligo

Evd-Burner wrote: »

you could get a day night meter and it's half the price to charge at night.

True , bit of an extra standing charge for a night meter but I suppose it still a good idea

nailer54321

I read sometime aho the ESB will be puting a standing charge on the card you use for charging, so you will have an annually fee regardless if you use it or not. Looks like to me hat you will not see any real savings until year fove or six taken in to account of how expensive the EV is compared yo a petrol version. Might br wrong but thibg the customer is getting sxrewed with this change to electric.j

BigAl81

By way of comparison what used to cost me 70 euro of petrol, now costs 5 euro in electricity

Andy From Sligo

BigAl81 wrote: »

By way of comparison what used to cost me 70 euro of petrol, now costs 5 euro in electricity

thats good - i'm liking that

JPA

Andy, just start a thread 'My electric car questions' and put them all in there.

BigAl81

Andy From Sligo wrote:

thats good - i'm liking that

Should I also mention the tax is 120 a year, tolls are half price, and there is very little maintenance as there is no engine, clutch, gears box, timing belt, DPF etc etc.

If you can find a car that suits your range, charge at home and you'll never need the public network at all!

NIMAN

I see the public chargers as an added bonus.

I have the EV now for maybe a year and used public chargers maybe less than 10 times.

ted1

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

True , bit of an extra standing charge for a night meter but I suppose it still a good idea

It’s 80 euro to fill car with petroleum that gets you about 800km

You’ll go alot further in ran ev
You also won’t hate to top up th oil , replace a clutch , change a timing belt, worry about DPF, DMF, coil packs, cracked exhausts, brake pads

Cockadoodledoo

€5 to fully charge? How many km would that take you?

Andy From Sligo

ted1 wrote: »

It’s 80 euro to fill car with petroleum that gets you about 800km

You’ll go alot further in ran ev
You also won’t hate to top up th oil , replace a clutch , change a timing belt, worry about DPF, DMF, coil packs, cracked exhausts, brake pads

our current Clio seems to be drinking oil and has white gunk in the oil filler cap - its getting on its 2003 , NCT next month. had to get set spark plugs for it the other month which werent that cheap and not sure about TB . so i know what you mean less bits (maintenance bits) to go wrong than a petrol car. Thats what I would look forward to as well.

Having a bit of job convincing my wife though she still thinks she could go out and it run out of juice or turn up at street chargers and them all in use and the Zoe Battery Rental is putting her off

Cockadoodledoo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

our current Clio seems to be drinking oil and has white gunk in the oil filler cap - its getting on its 2003 , NCT next month. had to get set spark plugs for it the other month which werent that cheap and not sure about TB . so i know what you mean less bits (maintenance bits) to go wrong than a petrol car. Thats what I would look forward to as well.

Having a bit of job convincing my wife though she still thinks she could go out and it run out of juice or turn up at street chargers and them all in use and the Zoe Battery Rental is putting her off

That would be my concern too lol

Andy From Sligo

Then I say's ESB are thinking of charging to use the on-street chargers and that put her off again then.

I can see why they would want to I suppose they want to expand the infrastructure and they cannot do that if not charging i suppose. And they want to dissuade people using them willy nilly as well and abusing the system. But I wouldnt like to see them charge too much that it puts off people getting an EV or start off cheap and then keep increasing the price to use them.

If they are not already, I'd like to see the street chargers actively using solar power and wind power - but i suppose even then someone has to pay for all that hardware at the end of the day

Mike9832

ted1 wrote: »

It’s 80 euro to fill car with petroleum that gets you about 800km

You’ll go alot further in ran ev
You also won’t hate to top up th oil , replace a clutch , change a timing belt, worry about DPF, DMF, coil packs, cracked exhausts, brake pads

Can you buy a used EV for 1k too?

Brake pads?

Do EVs use something else

All those are covered under warranty, why bring them up anyway ? You have to compare new vs new

If we go down that route

How much is a replacement 64kWh battery, motor, inverter etc in a Hyundai Kona for example?

NIMAN

IF you need to rely on the public charging network, I'd say an EV isnt for you.

ED E

Mike9832 wrote: »

Brake pads?

Do EVs use something else

They use theirs far less due to regenerative braking with the motors themselves.

Mike9832

ED E wrote: »

They use theirs far less due to regenerative braking with the motors themselves.

We all know that

Still have to change them

Ted was suggesting something different

DM1983

It's pretty simple guys. The cost of fuel is the big saving with EVs. The cost per km of electricity is approximately 20% of that for a modern diesel. You have to compare like with like. If you were about to buy a 5 year old petrol or diesel, buy a 5 year old ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. If you were about to buy a new petrol or diesel, buy a new ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. The latter is a possibility for all. The former is a possibility for those that 5 year old electric range suits their usage pattern.

Think of the additional tax and servicing savings as a bonus. They are an insignificant component unless your mileage is less than 10k km per year.

unkel

Cockadoodledoo wrote: »

€5 to fully charge? How many km would that take you?

€2.50 to charge my car from empty to full. That gives me on average 220km

So a bit more than 1 cent per km. A similar size diesel would cost me about 8-9 cent per km. If you do 20k km per year, the fuel saving alone is €1500 per year

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

€2.50 to charge my car from empty to full. That gives me on average 220km

So a bit more than 1 cent per km. A similar size diesel would cost me about 8-9 cent per km. If you do 20k km per year, the fuel saving alone is €1500 per year

Thats the only saving?

New vs new

NIMAN

Mike9832 wrote: »

Thats the only saving?

New vs new

Well you'll save a small amount on road tax.

Plus less maintenance costs, servicing costs.
There isn't as many things that need annual servicing like oil changes, filter changes and when the miles build up potential DPF issues, flywheels etc etc.

ted1

Mike9832 wrote: »

Can you buy a used EV for 1k too?

Brake pads?

Do EVs use something else

All those are covered under warranty, why bring them up anyway ? You have to compare new vs new

If we go down that route

How much is a replacement 64kWh battery, motor, inverter etc in a Hyundai Kona for example?

No they are not all covered under warranty

Mike9832

ted1 wrote: »

No they are not all covered under warranty

The big ones are

Mike9832

NIMAN wrote: »

Well you'll save a small amount on road tax.

Plus less maintenance costs, servicing costs.
There isn't as many things that need annual servicing like oil changes, filter changes and when the miles build up potential DPF issues, flywheels etc etc.

Tax I'll give you

Service no

Still have to service EVs, Ioniq has a ridiculous 15k km service schedule

Talking new cars not old bangers, flywheel etc are warranty covered

Andy From Sligo

NIMAN wrote: »

Well you'll save a small amount on road tax.

Plus less maintenance costs, servicing costs.
There isn't as many things that need annual servicing like oil changes, filter changes and when the miles build up potential DPF issues, flywheels etc etc.

does DPF stand for Diesel Filter?

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Service no

Still have to service EVs

Not really. My Ioniq had an inspection done after 1 year. Cost €0.00

Nearly 2 years old now. I don't expect to pay much if anything for this years service either. 5 years bumper to bumper warranty, everything covered pretty much except tyres. Battery has an 8 year warranty. Almost all new EVs now come with an 8 year battery warranty.

Silent Running

Charging fees are already a thing in the UK. Charges are anything from free for domestic customers to 35p per kW on the motorway chargers. Some companies charge a connection fee and then per unit, but they're seen as a rip off.

The ESB could go with a model where they wholesale to electricity retailers like Energia and they would bundle car charging with home electricity supply.

I think that competition in the market will keep the ecars charges at a reasonable level. They'll be competing with Ionity soon, and easygo are rolling out destination chargers too. I can see the charging business opening out once charges are the norm, just like the UK market.

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Not really. My Ioniq had an inspection done after 1 year. Cost €0.00

Nearly 2 years old now. I don't expect to pay much if anything for this years service either. 5 years bumper to bumper warranty, everything covered pretty much except tyres. Battery has an 8 year warranty. Almost all new EVs now come with an 8 year battery warranty.

All most all ICE come with free servicing too and 5 year warranties

EVs require servicing, even if it's just for warranty purposes, hate when people say they don't need servicing

Calahonda52

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for that - you saying about most your charging is done at home, you know the granny cable that plugs into a 13a plug socket does it really take something like 3kw ? - so is that like you have to charge all night at 3kw per hour ? - thats quite hefty and if you left a 3kw fan heater on all night you would really bump up the electricity bill .. mind you i suppose it evens out if you save on buying petrol/diesel

1: GC only draws 2.2kw max.
The charge rate is irrelevant: its the total amount of kWs you draw and the price point.
eg I have a 30kW battery
so 15 hrs on the GC: so 12 hrs on night rate and 3 hrs on day rate.
on the free EV home charger it will be < than 12 hrs so all night rate

Re the day/night meter, IIRC once the night time consumption is > 1/3 of total then its a winner re the increased meter rental

GreeBo

DM1983 wrote: »

It's pretty simple guys. The cost of fuel is the big saving with EVs. The cost per km of electricity is approximately 20% of that for a modern diesel. You have to compare like with like. If you were about to buy a 5 year old petrol or diesel, buy a 5 year old ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. If you were about to buy a new petrol or diesel, buy a new ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. The latter is a possibility for all. The former is a possibility for those that 5 year old electric range suits their usage pattern.

Think of the additional tax and servicing savings as a bonus. They are an insignificant component unless your mileage is less than 10k km per year.

Maybe i missed it, but what exactly makes a new EV a nicer car then a new ICE?

Andy From Sligo

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe i missed it, but what exactly makes a new EV a nicer car then a new ICE?

i tell you my findings so far that for me is making an EV nicer than an ICE car :

No VRT (I'm thinking of getting one from NI)

120eur PA vehicle tax

no topping up of oil and that what you would get in ICE and no oil change, changing spark plugs and all those other service stuff.

and wow, the gadgetry and things like air conditioning and that which EV seems like its overloaded with gadgets and features of an ICE car of same price/age (and I love gadgets/electronics in cars)

only 2 things concerned about at moment personally and (and the wife even more because she will be driving it mainly) and that is being caught out and battery running down when driving somewhere

and the battery rental (which you have to get if you buy a renault Zoe)

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

I think that competition in the market will keep the ecars charges at a reasonable level. They'll be competing with Ionity soon

Only on CCS. Here's an interesting thought: would the ESB charge more for the CHAdeMO charger than for the CCS charger - that has to compete with Ionity?

CHAdeMO fast charging already is very congested and with the arrival of ever more L40 (and the L62 is CHAdeMO too, incredibly), would a €1 per kWh be arriving soon? €2 per kWh? More? Captive audience. Once there are 9 Ionity chargers out there with 6 bays each, the ESB won't be able to charge (much) more than they do, which will probably not go over €0.50 or so per kWh in the next few years.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Only on CCS. Here's an interesting thought: would the ESB charge more for the CHAdeMO charger than for the CCS charger - that has to compete with Ionity?

CHAdeMO fast charging already is very congested and with the arrival of ever more L40 (and the L62 is CHAdeMO too, incredibly), would a €1 per kWh be arriving soon? €2 per kWh? More? Captive audience. Once there are 9 Ionity chargers out there with 6 bays each, the ESB won't be able to charge (much) more than they do, which will probably not go over €0.50 or so per kWh in the next few years.

The market will respond to events. If ecars can get €1 per kW from Chademo chargers, some company will set up Chademo chargers for 75c per kW... and so on. Competition will be the driver.

The UK companies charge 5p to 10p over the domestic kW rate for pay as you go customers. I reckon it'll be a similar charge structure here. Possibly 10c to 15c over domestic day rate to cover the smaller market. Any more than that and they'd be competing against diesel running costs.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

The market will respond to events. If ecars can get €1 per kW from Chademo chargers, some company will set up Chademo chargers for 75c per kW...

Do you think?

I reckon setting up a new nationwide network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland is not commercially interesting. Not even if the operator could charge €5 per kWh.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Do you think?

I reckon setting up a new nationwide network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland is not commercially interesting. Not even if the operator could charge €5 per kWh.

Yeah, it's possible that market size would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be hampering Ionity for CCS or easygo for destination chargers though. Don't forget that the majority of the EVs on our roads are still Chademo, although that'll change over time.

It'll be interesting to see which way it goes, but I don't think ESB ecars will be able to just screw us over as they would dearly love to do. They will have to compete for our business.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Yeah, it's possible that market size would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be hampering Ionity for CCS

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

If that was the case, the 2 CCS rapids in the Audi dealer near me would be available for public use.

unkel

The vision and wisdom of Eamonn, the local Audi dealer in Ballygobackwards, isn't quite the same as the strategic joint venture incorporated by all the main European car manufacturers, now is it?

NIMAN

Mike9832 wrote: »

All most all ICE come with free servicing too and 5 year warranties

EVs require servicing, even if it's just for warranty purposes, hate when people say they don't need servicing

OK so both need servicing, but I would still maintain it will be cheaper to service an EV than an ICE.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

The vision and wisdom of Eamonn, the local Audi dealer in Ballygobackwards, isn't quite the same as the strategic joint venture incorporated by all the main European car manufacturers, now is it?

Ballygobackwards? The cheek of ya!

ted1

Mike9832 wrote: »

The big ones are

How long are warranty’s? They’ll eventually need to do be done and it’ll be outside if warranty.

I’ve never heard of a timing belt or clutch he being done by warranty which are generally limited to 100,000 km

Andy From Sligo

ted1 wrote: »

How long are warranty’s? They’ll eventually need to do be done and it’ll be outside if warranty.

I’ve never heard of a timing belt or clutch he being done by warranty which are generally limited to 100,000 km

anyone want to take an educated guess on how much a battery pack will cost to replace when its out of warranty? - I bet its steep?

NIMAN

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

anyone want to take an educated guess on how much a battery pack will cost to replace when its out of warranty? - I bet its steep?

£5k was listed a few years back.

It is after all the main component on an EV.

unkel

Not really relevant. Batteries are under 8 year warranty these days and when there are issues, individual cells can be replaced or the battery can be refurbished fairly cheaply. The rest of the car is for the junkyard before the battery is end of life. In fact most batteries in EVs will enter a second life when the car they were in is being scrapped.

@Andy From Sligo - you should really spend a few days reading this forum. Pretty much all the questions you have been asking about EVs over the last few years are answered here very regularly.

Andy From Sligo

NIMAN wrote: »

£5k was listed a few years back.

It is after all the main component on an EV.

:eek:

the used car we are looking at is 2013 - say if that only came with a 5year warranty on the battery , that would be out now. I see a lot of the newer EV's out now may have longer warranty on the battery but the older ones might have only had a 5 year warranty on the battery could that be the case?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

What makes you think they don’t want to make profit on it?

Profit is at the centre of everything Ionity and it’s financial backers are doing.

NIMAN

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

:eek:

the used car we are looking at is 2013 - say if that only came with a 5year warranty on the battery , that would be out now. I see a lot of the newer EV's out now may have longer warranty on the battery but the older ones might have only had a 5 year warranty on the battery could that be the case?

The battery might be out of warranty, but its not going to suddenly stop working..its not like you'll wake up one morning and its dead.

Instead you'll see a gradual decline over time, until its down to maybe 2 or 3 bars left out of 12. But as Unkel has said, the car will probably be worthless by that time anyway.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

What makes you think they don’t want to make profit on it?

mission:

"to build a pan-European high-power-charging (HPC) network for Electric vehicles to facilitate long-distance travel"

obviously to take the main barrier away from people buying EVs: limited range, not easily repleted (unlike ICE)