With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

Calahonda52

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for that - you saying about most your charging is done at home, you know the granny cable that plugs into a 13a plug socket does it really take something like 3kw ? - so is that like you have to charge all night at 3kw per hour ? - thats quite hefty and if you left a 3kw fan heater on all night you would really bump up the electricity bill .. mind you i suppose it evens out if you save on buying petrol/diesel

1: GC only draws 2.2kw max.
The charge rate is irrelevant: its the total amount of kWs you draw and the price point.
eg I have a 30kW battery
so 15 hrs on the GC: so 12 hrs on night rate and 3 hrs on day rate.
on the free EV home charger it will be < than 12 hrs so all night rate

Re the day/night meter, IIRC once the night time consumption is > 1/3 of total then its a winner re the increased meter rental

GreeBo

DM1983 wrote: »

It's pretty simple guys. The cost of fuel is the big saving with EVs. The cost per km of electricity is approximately 20% of that for a modern diesel. You have to compare like with like. If you were about to buy a 5 year old petrol or diesel, buy a 5 year old ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. If you were about to buy a new petrol or diesel, buy a new ev and you'll save money in a nicer car. The latter is a possibility for all. The former is a possibility for those that 5 year old electric range suits their usage pattern.

Think of the additional tax and servicing savings as a bonus. They are an insignificant component unless your mileage is less than 10k km per year.

Maybe i missed it, but what exactly makes a new EV a nicer car then a new ICE?

Andy From Sligo

GreeBo wrote: »

Maybe i missed it, but what exactly makes a new EV a nicer car then a new ICE?

i tell you my findings so far that for me is making an EV nicer than an ICE car :

No VRT (I'm thinking of getting one from NI)

120eur PA vehicle tax

no topping up of oil and that what you would get in ICE and no oil change, changing spark plugs and all those other service stuff.

and wow, the gadgetry and things like air conditioning and that which EV seems like its overloaded with gadgets and features of an ICE car of same price/age (and I love gadgets/electronics in cars)

only 2 things concerned about at moment personally and (and the wife even more because she will be driving it mainly) and that is being caught out and battery running down when driving somewhere

and the battery rental (which you have to get if you buy a renault Zoe)

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

I think that competition in the market will keep the ecars charges at a reasonable level. They'll be competing with Ionity soon

Only on CCS. Here's an interesting thought: would the ESB charge more for the CHAdeMO charger than for the CCS charger - that has to compete with Ionity?

CHAdeMO fast charging already is very congested and with the arrival of ever more L40 (and the L62 is CHAdeMO too, incredibly), would a €1 per kWh be arriving soon? €2 per kWh? More? Captive audience. Once there are 9 Ionity chargers out there with 6 bays each, the ESB won't be able to charge (much) more than they do, which will probably not go over €0.50 or so per kWh in the next few years.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Only on CCS. Here's an interesting thought: would the ESB charge more for the CHAdeMO charger than for the CCS charger - that has to compete with Ionity?

CHAdeMO fast charging already is very congested and with the arrival of ever more L40 (and the L62 is CHAdeMO too, incredibly), would a €1 per kWh be arriving soon? €2 per kWh? More? Captive audience. Once there are 9 Ionity chargers out there with 6 bays each, the ESB won't be able to charge (much) more than they do, which will probably not go over €0.50 or so per kWh in the next few years.

The market will respond to events. If ecars can get €1 per kW from Chademo chargers, some company will set up Chademo chargers for 75c per kW... and so on. Competition will be the driver.

The UK companies charge 5p to 10p over the domestic kW rate for pay as you go customers. I reckon it'll be a similar charge structure here. Possibly 10c to 15c over domestic day rate to cover the smaller market. Any more than that and they'd be competing against diesel running costs.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

The market will respond to events. If ecars can get €1 per kW from Chademo chargers, some company will set up Chademo chargers for 75c per kW...

Do you think?

I reckon setting up a new nationwide network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland is not commercially interesting. Not even if the operator could charge €5 per kWh.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

Do you think?

I reckon setting up a new nationwide network of CHAdeMO chargers in Ireland is not commercially interesting. Not even if the operator could charge €5 per kWh.

Yeah, it's possible that market size would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be hampering Ionity for CCS or easygo for destination chargers though. Don't forget that the majority of the EVs on our roads are still Chademo, although that'll change over time.

It'll be interesting to see which way it goes, but I don't think ESB ecars will be able to just screw us over as they would dearly love to do. They will have to compete for our business.

unkel

Silent Running wrote: »

Yeah, it's possible that market size would be an issue. That doesn't seem to be hampering Ionity for CCS

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

If that was the case, the 2 CCS rapids in the Audi dealer near me would be available for public use.

unkel

The vision and wisdom of Eamonn, the local Audi dealer in Ballygobackwards, isn't quite the same as the strategic joint venture incorporated by all the main European car manufacturers, now is it?

NIMAN

Mike9832 wrote: »

All most all ICE come with free servicing too and 5 year warranties

EVs require servicing, even if it's just for warranty purposes, hate when people say they don't need servicing

OK so both need servicing, but I would still maintain it will be cheaper to service an EV than an ICE.

Silent Running

unkel wrote: »

The vision and wisdom of Eamonn, the local Audi dealer in Ballygobackwards, isn't quite the same as the strategic joint venture incorporated by all the main European car manufacturers, now is it?

Ballygobackwards? The cheek of ya!

ted1

Mike9832 wrote: »

The big ones are

How long are warranty’s? They’ll eventually need to do be done and it’ll be outside if warranty.

I’ve never heard of a timing belt or clutch he being done by warranty which are generally limited to 100,000 km

Andy From Sligo

ted1 wrote: »

How long are warranty’s? They’ll eventually need to do be done and it’ll be outside if warranty.

I’ve never heard of a timing belt or clutch he being done by warranty which are generally limited to 100,000 km

anyone want to take an educated guess on how much a battery pack will cost to replace when its out of warranty? - I bet its steep?

NIMAN

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

anyone want to take an educated guess on how much a battery pack will cost to replace when its out of warranty? - I bet its steep?

£5k was listed a few years back.

It is after all the main component on an EV.

unkel

Not really relevant. Batteries are under 8 year warranty these days and when there are issues, individual cells can be replaced or the battery can be refurbished fairly cheaply. The rest of the car is for the junkyard before the battery is end of life. In fact most batteries in EVs will enter a second life when the car they were in is being scrapped.

@Andy From Sligo - you should really spend a few days reading this forum. Pretty much all the questions you have been asking about EVs over the last few years are answered here very regularly.

Andy From Sligo

NIMAN wrote: »

£5k was listed a few years back.

It is after all the main component on an EV.

:eek:

the used car we are looking at is 2013 - say if that only came with a 5year warranty on the battery , that would be out now. I see a lot of the newer EV's out now may have longer warranty on the battery but the older ones might have only had a 5 year warranty on the battery could that be the case?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

The mission of Ionity is not to make profit. It's to promote the CCS charging EVs of its members.

What makes you think they don’t want to make profit on it?

Profit is at the centre of everything Ionity and it’s financial backers are doing.

NIMAN

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

:eek:

the used car we are looking at is 2013 - say if that only came with a 5year warranty on the battery , that would be out now. I see a lot of the newer EV's out now may have longer warranty on the battery but the older ones might have only had a 5 year warranty on the battery could that be the case?

The battery might be out of warranty, but its not going to suddenly stop working..its not like you'll wake up one morning and its dead.

Instead you'll see a gradual decline over time, until its down to maybe 2 or 3 bars left out of 12. But as Unkel has said, the car will probably be worthless by that time anyway.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

What makes you think they don’t want to make profit on it?

mission:

"to build a pan-European high-power-charging (HPC) network for Electric vehicles to facilitate long-distance travel"

obviously to take the main barrier away from people buying EVs: limited range, not easily repleted (unlike ICE)

ei9go

The real question is why does anybody answer questions from "Andy from Sligo"

Is there no google or internet in Sligo?

GreeBo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

i tell you my findings so far that for me is making an EV nicer than an ICE car :

No VRT (I'm thinking of getting one from NI)

120eur PA vehicle tax

no topping up of oil and that what you would get in ICE and no oil change, changing spark plugs and all those other service stuff.

and wow, the gadgetry and things like air conditioning and that which EV seems like its overloaded with gadgets and features of an ICE car of same price/age (and I love gadgets/electronics in cars)

only 2 things concerned about at moment personally and (and the wife even more because she will be driving it mainly) and that is being caught out and battery running down when driving somewhere

and the battery rental (which you have to get if you buy a renault Zoe)

Nothing there makes it a nicer car, even subjectively.
Possibly less painful to own and run but categorically not a nicer car!

Andy From Sligo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

been toying with getting a Renault Zoe EV but now it just seems a bit less attractive with having to rent the batteries, and still having to pay vehicle tax (although €120 per annul is still attractive) but now I have just read that ESB are going to start charging in 2019 for using street chargers.

with ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers is it still worth buying EV?

footnote: - i dont know how much they are planning to charge to use them ... i am not even sure if they know yet

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

thanks for that - you saying about most your charging is done at home, you know the granny cable that plugs into a 13a plug socket does it really take something like 3kw ? - so is that like you have to charge all night at 3kw per hour ? - thats quite hefty and if you left a 3kw fan heater on all night you would really bump up the electricity bill .. mind you i suppose it evens out if you save on buying petrol/diesel

This is a question I get asked a lot by people when I talk about electricity costs

"will it add much to my bill ? because my electricity bill is high enough and I don't want to add to it "

I say of course it will add to your bill but it's a fraction of the cost of diesel. I ask the question, how many 20 euro notes to you hand over paying for petrol/diesel and not even think about it ? now imagine you get a bill for that every two months ? it would be far higher than what you would pay to charge the car !

But people are instantly put off by the prospects of "adding to the electric bill" but are quite willing to shell out hundreds on Petrol and diesel they can not see a saving only a higher bill ! crazy really.

On the topic of charging for electricity, yes it's a good idea we all know that now, queues have grown over the last 4 years since I got the Leaf 24 Kwh.

I needed the Naas charger daily for 9 months when on shift so that was 14 times a Month to get home from work and I said never again, it was a complete heartache , mainly caused by inconsiderate assholes shopping in Tesco or going over to Aldi and being quite brazen about it.

So the moral of that story is , if you depend on public charging EV will be a pain in the arse, if you charge at home most of the time and would need to use the public chargers a few times a month or few times a week for a quick top up I'd say go ahead.

Most people won't be buying electric cars anyway that have 24 Kwh batteries and will be at least 60 Kwh and higher before most people even consider EV.

The larger the battery the less dependency on public charging.

I can now comfortably make my 142 Km commute in the i3 33 Kwh and I have the Rex if there are queues at public chargers or chargers are broken so I have if I want complete independence from the network and I might use 8 litres of petrol every couple of months or more. I can live with that no problem.

I have work charging now which meets 75-80% of my roughly , 30,000 Kms a year.

Some maths.

if an efficiency of 18/Kwh/100 km average then over 30,000 kms at night rate charging of say, 7.6 C/Kwh (night rate ) , and needing 5,405 Kwh of electricity then it would cost 410 Euro's.

If all your charging is done on day rate then double that cost but I expect most people to charge at home on night rate with some topping up on day rate for smaller batteries.

At some point in the near future you'll be able to charge the car and use some of that electricity to power the house during the day for cooking, washing etc. Called Vehicle-To-Grid or V2G. And/or export that to the grid.

Oh and I nearly forget, the 50 Euro extra yearly charge for the dual meter pays me back in a week , charging the car and using some appliances at night too.

Since we moved house about 1 yr 10 months ago well over half our total electricity has been used at night.

Gumbo

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

:eek:

the used car we are looking at is 2013 - say if that only came with a 5year warranty on the battery , that would be out now. I see a lot of the newer EV's out now may have longer warranty on the battery but the older ones might have only had a 5 year warranty on the battery could that be the case?

How much would it cost to replace the engine on a 520d if it went?

Battery longevity shouldn't be much of an issue with larger batteries as it means far less charging/discharging the more range you have + the more range it has the less likely the issue with 20-30% capacity loss.

20% capacity loss is far less of an issue on a 60+ Kwh battery than it is on a 24 Kwh battery. Most 2011 Leaf batteries are probably around 70% now after 8 years in Ireland some maybe less with higher usage but don't forget batteries are getting better and better all the time.

The BMW i3 has some impressive cycle life figures for the 33 Kwh battery something like 3,000 cycles to 80% is incredible and beats even LiFeP04 chemistry for longevity, of course the proof is in the pudding , it would mean 550,000 Kms to 80% capacity. Time will tell , so far my 171 March registered i3 33 Kwh has 45,300 Kms and 100% battery capacity after 1 yr 10 months.

My 2015 Leaf was sown around 7-10% after 3 years and about 85,000 Kms. I must see if I can find my last Leafspy data. I used to be able to make it home with about 20-30% battery but the low battery light and sometimes --- was showing at the end.

A reason for this too , as the battery ages internal resistance increases meaning it finds it harder and harder to deliver and receive power so when you put the foot down the weaker cells become known and the low warning can trigger a lot earlier than if you drive more gentle. This can clearly be seen with leaf spy.

So your pack voltage suddenly drops when you hit the throttle which happens more and more, so you not only have a weaker battery to contend with but also less battery capacity.

in the i3 I can put the boot down all the way home and get home with around 50% and that's driving hard enough and it's a bit more efficient than the 24 Kwh leaf also, easier driving and I can get home with 60-65% and in warmer weather about 70%.

As I said , when batteries get much larger it won't be much of an issue.

The J Stands for Jay

JPA wrote: »

Andy, just start a thread 'My questions' and put them all in there.

FYP

Mike9832

A BMW with 550k

Good luck 🀞

KCross

unkel wrote: »

mission:

"to build a pan-European high-power-charging (HPC) network for Electric vehicles to facilitate long-distance travel"

obviously to take the main barrier away from people buying EVs: limited range, not easily repleted (unlike ICE)

Thats fair enough but its a bit of a leap to take that mission statement and then say "The mission of Ionity is not to make profit."

If they didnt have an eye on profit they wouldnt have their introductory price at €8 per charge, it would be free. As an introductory price its only going to go up significantly from there in the years ahead.

Andy From Sligo

ei9go wrote: »

The real question is why does anybody answer questions from "Andy from Sligo"

Is there no google or internet in Sligo?

because i suppose they are being nice ... and they are being helpful - maybe thats not in your nature but there are genuine people out there who do want to help others with their enquiries.

Thanks I am more than aware Google and Internet exist but I am also aware that sometimes its just more easier and better to ask owners or people with experience rather than google'ing for answers

NIMAN

Keep asking questions Andy.

I'm still asking questions, and I've had an eV for a year or more.