With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

20-01-2019 10:28pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

because i suppose they are being nice ... and they are being helpful - maybe thats not in your nature but there are genuine people out there who do want to help others with their enquiries.

Thanks I am more than aware Google and Internet exist but I am also aware that sometimes its just more easier and better to ask owners or people with experience rather than google'ing for answers

If we didn't ask questions this forum would be dead.

It's hard to find answers in threads that are allowed to go on for 100+ pages.

No bother to me, ask away glad to help if I can.

Andy From Sligo · 21-01-2019 1:52am

NIMAN wrote: »

Keep asking questions Andy.

I'm still asking questions, and I've had an eV for a year or more.

Deleted User wrote: »

If we didn't ask questions this forum would be dead.

It's hard to find answers in threads that are allowed to go on for 100+ pages.

No bother to me, ask away glad to help if I can.

indeed - I think likewise. Thanks.

Sabre Man · 21-01-2019 2:27pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Nothing there makes it a nicer car, even subjectively.
Possibly less painful to own and run but categorically not a nicer car!

How about instant torque?

No rattling, clattering engine? Just peace and quiet.

The ability to preheat your car from the comfort of your home or office via a mobile app?

Not having to visit petrol stations and breathe horrible fumes, or risk spilling petrol or diesel on your car or yourself?

Andy From Sligo · 21-01-2019 11:55pm

Sabre Man wrote: »

How about instant torque?

No rattling, clattering engine? Just peace and quiet.

The ability to preheat your car from the comfort of your home or office via a mobile app?

Not having to visit petrol stations and breathe horrible fumes, or risk spilling petrol or diesel on your car or yourself?

I like the sound of all of that - sounds great. Sounds like the future as well.

Even with Hybrid you still have to visit the petrol station ... granted maybe not as much but you still have to

I have always hated in the past 3 Cylinder engines , they are I find much noisier/vibrate'ier than the 4cylinder engines especially when idling at the traffic lights what have you - horrible. They also sound/vibrate just like a Diesel engine I find - or rather to me they do, I havent come across a smooth 3cylinder ICE engine yet myself.

The preheat before you get into the car sounds bloody fantastic - nothing worse than waiting for an ICE car to reach near on normal engine temp to start defrosting the screen and warm up the inside of the cabin on a cold and frosty morning

DrPhilG · 22-01-2019 12:40am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

The preheat before you get into the car sounds bloody fantastic - nothing worse than waiting for an ICE car to reach near on normal engine temp to start defrosting the screen and warm up the inside of the cabin on a cold and frosty morning

Not all EVs have that function. The Leaf and the BMW i3 do, Ioniq definitely doesn't. Not sure about the Zoe.

unkel · 22-01-2019 1:07am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Not all EVs have that function. The Leaf and the BMW i3 do, Ioniq definitely doesn't.

Eh, yes it does.

Andy From Sligo · 22-01-2019 1:16am

unkel wrote: »

Eh, yes it does.

yes R-Link isnt it? - on all Zoe levels as well as standard (ie not an option) - I think thats what I have read.

With the amount of gadgetry you get on a used Zoe you would be hard to find such up to date electronic features comfort and niceties on an ICE car for the similar money - thats why i hope in the end the Mrs goes for a used Zoe EV rather than a 3cyl Kia or Polo or something for the same price or more

22-01-2019 1:37am

Do you feel the battery rental on a used zoe is a good deal ? same price for older battery with no guarantee of a new battery what so ever. Chances for all the money you spend on battery lease they will only install reconditioned battery.

DrPhilG · 22-01-2019 1:51am

unkel wrote: »

Eh, yes it does.

Sorry I was referring to a mobile app, not a precondition option.

Not having a mobile app will still give you a cosy warm car in the morning, but not when you're leaving work!

Andy From Sligo · 22-01-2019 1:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you feel the battery rental on a used zoe is a good deal ? same price for older battery with no guarantee of a new battery what so ever. Chances for all the money you spend on battery lease they will only install reconditioned battery.

who me personally do you mean? - I am unsure. Its a shame that it gets more expensive the more Km's you do . I wouldnt know if it would be best to start out at the lower 79eur per month for 12,500km's (but thats nothing that figure could drum that up in no time) and see how we go or what.

so i am presuming that if you want to get it at 79eur per month for 12,500km's then you have to lump sum €2,844 for the 3 year rental on top of the used 6,000eur for the Zoe - is that how it works ? (79eur per month = €948 per year and then 3 x €948 = €2,844)

or could you sign a 3 year contract and pay €79 PM? - thats the way i would like to do it but i doubt if they would do it like that (renaultbelgard.ie) - I must phone them and ask them .

But yeah €2,844 just for battery rental would break your heart and thats for the lowest Km's - and taking into account they may not replace the battery but just faulty cells or just swap it out for a refurbished battery pack.

Andy From Sligo · 22-01-2019 1:58am

DrPhilG wrote: »

Sorry I was referring to a mobile app, not a precondition option.

Not having a mobile app will still give you a cosy warm car in the morning, but not when you're leaving work!

could if you plug your car in at your place of work

heres a thing, I wonder if you dont pre-heat the Zoe how long it would take to warm up inside the car from when you first press the start/stop button? - wonder if heat comes through instantly through the vents?

Steve · 22-01-2019 2:27am

Elephant in the room here is in an 'ideal' world, everyone in the country moves to EV's. Government then says, 'wait what? where will we get out tax from??' 'ok lets tax the bejaysus out of EV's because they mostly run of turf and coal and we can't be having that.'

Same thing they did with the now hated diesel cars. I have a 2011, first tax was €120, now it's €280, terrified about what's next as I don't have the cash to by a less taxed car.

unkel · 22-01-2019 2:40am

Steve wrote: »

Government then says, 'wait what? where will we get out tax from??' 'ok lets tax the bejaysus out of EV's

Problem is, Steve, they can't

There is no way of knowing if someone is charging their car or heating their kettle for a cup of tea...

And in the case they will tax all electricity hard (very unlikely), we'll just make our own electricity. At home. 100% safe, 100% legal, 100% renewable and forever cheap :cool:

Unless of course you mean motor tax. This will never be higher than on a petrol / diesel car until most cars are EVs, which is a good 15-20 years away

Steve · 22-01-2019 2:59am

unkel wrote: »

Problem is, Steve, they can't

They can - it won't be long before the 'free' charge points attract a 'carbon tax' once EV's gain critical mass.

There is no way of knowing if someone is charging their car or heating their kettle for a cup of tea...

Agreed, and there is already an increasing tax to unit cost ratio for this.

And in the case they will tax all electricity hard (very unlikely), we'll just make our own electricity. At home. 100% safe, 100% legal, 100% renewable and forever cheap :cool:

I'm yet to be convinced of this, I spent a good deal of time researching (both form an engineering and cost/benefit point of view) it in my previous job and there was always a negative payback for micro generation. Biggest hurdle there is it's prohibited to sell back to the grid without a licence, which costs more than you would ever make back, also lifetime of PV cells is too short or pay for what they generate.

Unless of course you mean motor tax. This will never be higher than on a petrol / diesel car until most cars are EVs, which is a good 15-20 years away

They will balance that - need to take x billions off us in tax vs proportion of fuel type.

Wait and see..

22-01-2019 3:50am

Lads, there's pressure on the Government to massively increase carbon tax, they'll get their money.

Carbon tax is fine if they have alternative ways for people to heat their homes and drive and until there is sufficient ways for people to get of fossil fuels carbon tax is a disgusting disgrace. It's appalling to think people are taxed for such an essential fuel.

They should start with ridding us of solid fuels and the clouds of smoke over housing estates and in towns already with a smokey coal ban. It's a joke, start with the filthiest fuels because there are much cleaner alternatives to Coal, turf and briquettes.

22-01-2019 3:57am

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

who me personally do you mean? - I am unsure. Its a shame that it gets more expensive the more Km's you do . I wouldnt know if it would be best to start out at the lower 79eur per month for 12,500km's (but thats nothing that figure could drum that up in no time) and see how we go or what.

so i am presuming that if you want to get it at 79eur per month for 12,500km's then you have to lump sum €2,844 for the 3 year rental on top of the used 6,000eur for the Zoe - is that how it works ? (79eur per month = €948 per year and then 3 x €948 = €2,844)

or could you sign a 3 year contract and pay €79 PM? - thats the way i would like to do it but i doubt if they would do it like that (renaultbelgard.ie) - I must phone them and ask them .

But yeah €2,844 just for battery rental would break your heart and thats for the lowest Km's - and taking into account they may not replace the battery but just faulty cells or just swap it out for a refurbished battery pack.

No , chances are they will not give you a new battery and probably best you can hope for is a battery with 80% capacity, I would not give them this kind of money.

Have you considered a 30 Kwh Leaf ? you mentioned 16K was your budget, you'd be mad to get the Zoe in my opinion. You can find a few leafs with 30 Kwh battery and 6.6 Kw charger.

Andy From Sligo · 22-01-2019 12:33pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No , chances are they will not give you a new battery and probably best you can hope for is a battery with 80% capacity, I would not give them this kind of money.

Have you considered a 30 Kwh Leaf ? you mentioned 16K was your budget, you'd be mad to get the Zoe in my opinion. You can find a few leafs with 30 Kwh battery and 6.6 Kw charger.

No, 16k is no-where near budget. 5or6grand is what we should be able to get a CU loan for. We just filled out the form last night to see. Cheapest Zoe seen in the roi at moment is 8,000eur the cheapest from dealer up in Ni is around £5,500 if there is no VRT which it seems there isn't then best deal is to get one from Ni I'd prefer to buy one in ROI to save changing over numberplates , paperwork what have you but as you can see still a big difference between prices of cars up in North better selection too used Nissan leafs much more expensive but then again I suppose you haven't got the battery rental palava that's why.

The wife reckons the leaf's look physically bigger on the outside than the Zoe and harder to park. Is that the case? Are they physically larger car?

Round Cable · 22-01-2019 12:40pm

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

The wife reckons the leaf's look physically bigger on the outside than the Zoe and harder to park. Is that the case? Are they physically larger car?

The Leaf is definitely a bigger car. It would be comparable in looks, shape, and size to a 1st generation Toyota Auris. I don't find it difficult to park, to be honest, but a Zoe would definitely be more nimble in this area.

Zenith74 · 22-01-2019 12:48pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Carbon tax is fine if they have alternative ways for people to heat their homes and drive and until there is sufficient ways for people to get of fossil fuels carbon tax is a disgusting disgrace. It's appalling to think people are taxed for such an essential fuel.

They should start with ridding us of solid fuels and the clouds of smoke over housing estates and in towns already with a smokey coal ban. It's a joke, start with the filthiest fuels because there are much cleaner alternatives to Coal, turf and briquettes.

Worth having a listen to this podcast on how a carbon tax can work that it won’t penalise the average person - https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/07/12/201502003/episode-472-the-one-page-plan-to-fix-global-warming. Essentially that all funds raised are paid back to citizens equally. So if you’re an average carbon creator you will not see any increase in your cost of living. If you’re a lower than average carbon producer, like say you have lower income so live in a smaller house, drive a smaller car, then you’ll still get the same rebate but be paying less of the carbon tax - you’ll be in a net positive position. Same for those who move to more carbon efficient lifestyles. But if you’re a high carbon producer, for instance you own a McMansion, you drive a 4L Range Rover etc the carbon tax will have a net negative impact on you.

It’s actually a clever system and conveniently is backed by lots of research that categorically shows these kinds of measures change behaviour.

unkel · 22-01-2019 12:58pm

Steve wrote: »

They can - it won't be long before the 'free' charge points attract a 'carbon tax' once EV's gain critical mass.

The free public charge points will no longer be free later this year. Something that most EV owners welcome. We charge at home 99% of the time, and we are delighted to pay top dollar for the occasional time we drive beyond the range of our car if that means we won't have to wait to charge.

Steve wrote: »

I'm yet to be convinced of this, I spent a good deal of time researching (both form an engineering and cost/benefit point of view) it in my previous job and there was always a negative payback for micro generation. Biggest hurdle there is it's prohibited to sell back to the grid without a licence, which costs more than you would ever make back, also lifetime of PV cells is too short or pay for what they generate.

Things have changed a lot in the last few years. Panels only cost a fraction of what they used to cost (they last many decades by the way, without any maintenance and only having a tiny bit of degradation) and we now have a subsidy of up to €3,800 on a domestic solar PV install. Pay back times have come down a lot. The payback time on my own solar has proven to be negative :cool:

ELM327 · 22-01-2019 1:26pm

Cockadoodledoo wrote: »

€5 to fully charge? How many km would that take you?

If I had to pay €5 to fully charge my Ioniq I would get 180-220km for that.
Not bad value, and still cheaper than an ICE.

Silent Running · 22-01-2019 1:44pm

ELM327 wrote: »

If I had to pay €5 to fully charge my Ioniq I would get 180-220km for that.
Not bad value, and still cheaper than an ICE.

If the UK model is followed, it would be a bit more than that.

Just looking at my Ecotricity emails from last month...

21.8 kW delivered @ 30p per kW, +VAT @ 20% costs £6.54, which is €7.42 at today's rate.

unkel · 22-01-2019 1:49pm

I'd consider the Dutch Fastned network as a reasonable benchmark of things to come. Without a monthly subscription, you pay 59c/kWh

The occasional time you drive beyond the range of your car (say Ioniq) and you fast charge it up from 20%-80% it will take 15 minutes and will cost you €9.90

I'd be more than happy with that...

GreeBo · 22-01-2019 1:51pm

kceire wrote: »

How much would it cost to replace the engine on a 520d if it went?

"If" versus "when" though.

ELM327 · 22-01-2019 1:53pm

Silent Running wrote: »

If the UK model is followed, it would be a bit more than that.

Just looking at my Ecotricity emails from last month...

21.8 kW delivered @ 30p per kW, +VAT @ 20% costs £6.54, which is €7.42 at today's rate.

Still happy to pay that if I knew there were multiple chargepoints per location and there were no local freeloaders.

If you apportion that 95% of your charging is at home (7c/kWh) /work (0c/kWh) and 5% is at 30p(~40c)/kWh, then it's still a great deal compared to ICE.

ELM327 · 22-01-2019 1:54pm

GreeBo wrote: »

"If" versus "when" though.

cough m47 cough

Gumbo · 22-01-2019 1:56pm

GreeBo wrote: »

"If" versus "when" though.

No ifs and buts around timing chain failure, turbo failure due to breather valve clogging.......

You don't buy a car wondering how much it will cost to replace the engine if it goes..

Silent Running · 22-01-2019 2:08pm

unkel wrote: »

I'd consider the Dutch Fastned network as a reasonable benchmark of things to come. Without a monthly subscription, you pay 59c/kWh

The occasional time you drive beyond the range of your car (say Ioniq) and you fast charge it up from 20%-80% it will take 15 minutes and will cost you €9.90

I'd be more than happy with that...

The only problem I have with that is that I didn't buy my car to pootle around my local area. That's not what the Ioniq was developed to be either.

I very regularly drive well beyond my car's range, and please don't roll out that old trope "you bought the wrong car". Europeans don't see the Ioniq as just a local runabout, I don't see why we should.

Regarding the cost of charging. I do a regular trip to the UK. The return is just over 1000 kms. In my last car (161 diesel auto) I used to fill up in the unmanned petrol station in Wexford. I wouldn't have to fill up again until I got back to that station. The most I ever had to put in on return was €50.

My last run last month cost me a shade under €38 in electricity. That included one home charge before leaving and 3 free charges while in the UK. The free charges were a bonus that only happen when the chargers go out of contact, they go freevend. If I had to pay those charges, I would have been looking at a similar electric and diesel bill.

My point is that a cost much more than the UK 30p +vat per kW brings me into diesel territory. If we want to convert people to EVs, high public charging fees isn't the way to go about it.

Silent Running · 22-01-2019 2:18pm

ELM327 wrote: »

Still happy to pay that if I knew there were multiple chargepoints per location and there were no local freeloaders.

If you apportion that 95% of your charging is at home (7c/kWh) /work (0c/kWh) and 5% is at 30p(~40c)/kWh, then it's still a great deal compared to ICE.

In the UK, there are very few multiple CCS units in any location. Worse still, where triple head units are placed beside older Chademo units, the Leafs will connect to the triple head charger, as it's shinier, or something. The Chademo unit is left unoccupied while I wait for a Leaf to finish on the triple header.

No freeloaders makes a big difference though.

I'm normally far away from my home charger, so I only get my initial charge there. No work = no work charging. I'm just an old dosser.

ELM327 · 22-01-2019 2:34pm

Silent Running wrote: »

The only problem I have with that is that I didn't buy my car to pootle around my local area. That's not what the Ioniq was developed to be either.

I very regularly drive well beyond my car's range, and please don't roll out that old trope "you bought the wrong car". Europeans don't see the Ioniq as just a local runabout, I don't see why we should.

Regarding the cost of charging. I do a regular trip to the UK. The return is just over 1000 kms. In my last car (161 diesel auto) I used to fill up in the unmanned petrol station in Wexford. I wouldn't have to fill up again until I got back to that station. The most I ever had to put in on return was €50.

My last run last month cost me a shade under €38 in electricity. That included one home charge before leaving and 3 free charges while in the UK. The free charges were a bonus that only happen when the chargers go out of contact, they go freevend. If I had to pay those charges, I would have been looking at a similar electric and diesel bill.

My point is that a cost much more than the UK 30p +vat per kW brings me into diesel territory. If we want to convert people to EVs, high public charging fees isn't the way to go about it.

There is no correlation between the cost of fast charger usage and the uptake of EVs. The chargers have been free since 2011 and usage has only recently started to uptake from a minimal base.

If you are basing your driving around 100% or even 50% of the charging done on the public network then you are in the wrong car. It does not suit your use case.

I'd be happy with 30c/kWh or even 50c-100c/kWh at fast chargers as it will leave them free for those who need them while still enabling long distance travel. For an idea, 100c/kWh for 24kWh in my Ioniq, charging from 10-15% to 94% would cost €24. But I'd have left home with 100% at 7c/kWh so the cost for the whole trip assuming 1 fast charger use at exact right point is as follows:

Discharge 100% to 15%, 85pp used, charge 7c/kWh. 85%* 28kWh*0.07 = €1.66, 180 km driven
Charge at CCS 15% to 94%, 79pp used, 79%*28kWh*1.00 = €22.12 , 170km driven
Total trip 350km, cost €23.78.

And that is only for trips outside the range of the car.

Look at Ionity, they are charging €8 per session and I'd still charge there in preference to a one off ecars charger that may or may not work or be in use / hogged by a local etc

It remains to be seen if €8 per session as a cost will be borne by the market but judging by the UK experience it seems like it will.

With ESB having plans to charge for using street chargers, is it worth buying EV?

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