Do you think nurses will get their payrise?

Varta

daithi7 wrote: »

Sorry, I got more than 2 honours in my leaving, so as a reward, I just have to pay for this ****eology

Are you suggesting that you can get into nursing with just two Hons in LC?

Gunmonkey

Twenty Grand wrote: »

It is entirely up to nurses to decide whether they want to stay or go. Of course if they have commitments here they may stay, but it is completely their own choice. They are not beholded to the government or limited in alternatives to Ireland.

As shown by the INMO and Government incentives, there are huge numbers of Irish nurses choosing to move abroad for better opportunities. This is not a pay issue, it is a conditions and under staffing issue which has been highlighted for the last decade.
The government has failed to act, so nurses must and all power to them.

So what was the strikes for then, as every piece of literature from the INMO and every interview with strikers made it out to be about pay.

Why were they not pushing forward policy changes with the threat of industrial action if its a "conditions" issue? If they know what needs to be fixed, why not provide everyone with their recommendations; they are the ones who will be impacted most and would want it changed.

Link me the INMO list of demands on their website, since they seem to have time to run a "trolley-watch" there must be a big list of ways to fix the HSE on there. If they are pointing out the numbers of folks on trollies then surely they would want that to end...so there must be a list of ideas attached to it but I never found it. Even the Q&A file for the recent strikes only listed the nurses pay scales and comparisons to other public sector workers; maybe I missed it in the pdf, but would probably remember something like that.

Also odd that as soon as the labour court intervenes and looks like a nice pay rise is on the horizon..."This is not a pay issue"

Varta

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Most of his posts are on this very thread. Makes you wonder who does pay him to spread lies and disinformation.

Still clinging on dearly to the OECD report :rolleyes:

As I've said before, FG tactic. They really believe they can influence public opinion by using morons to post social media sites.

Headshot

Im watching the Tonight show about the Nursing situation.

Makes my blood boil seeing the likes of the populist group People Before Profit letting the nurses have anything they want and they give the rest of the public sector their pay rise too

The day they are out of Government the better

On a separate note I'm really annoyed the Government caved on this issue

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

Well, as the respected Economist Colm McCarthy said today on the radio, its not fair that the taxpayer here spends up to a quarter of a million euro training

Tough sh*t.
If the HSE listened and made Irish hospitals attractive places to work then people wouldn't leave.

This isn't the fault of nurses. It's a systematic fault of the HSE and it's been aware for years. it's not just new graduates leaving either.

Everyone is leaving or threatening to leave.

feckthisgenie

feckthisgenie wrote: »

You must of arrived late into the HSE. I have 29 I think must double check. Some of my colleagues have 30 or 31 on the older contacts at senior grade

I got a proper education in the NHS. But unfortunately the HSE don't recognise that

Twenty Grand

Deleted User wrote: »

I got a proper education in the NHS. But unfortunately the HSE don't recognise that

Got higher standards

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

If I'm wrong or dismembered something I'll happily admit it.
Sure we're only human



And it's every workers responsibility (both public and private) to negotiate the best pay and condition for themselves.
If you have an in-demand, marketable skill then you're well placed to demand more money and benefits.

No one is a charity.

You haven't admitted it though?

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Got higher standards

I feel you mean higher wages. Strange that NHS nurses are more capable than Irish ones. #stir

Twenty Grand

Deleted User wrote: »

You haven't admitted it though?

Sorry, I thought i did. Yep, mea culpa, I wrote something I thought I read elsewhere in this thread and I probably misremembered it.

Deleted User wrote: »

I feel you mean higher wages. Strange that NHS nurses are more capable than Irish ones. #stir

If Ireland has higher wages, then why are Irish nurses flocking to the UK and elsewhere? Its doubtful to live in exotic UK. Maybe it's because they offer a better package than the HSE?

topmanamillion

alloywheel wrote: »

Well, as the respected Economist Colm McCarthy said today on the radio, its not fair that the taxpayer here spends up to a quarter of a million euro training each health professional, and they then scarper off to Australia when they qualify, to the benefit of the Australian economy. He made the valid point that pilots have to pay €100,000 for their training. Training all these nurses free of charge has been a massive drain on the Irish economy. He said either the nurses should reimburse us something towards the cost of their training, or else we should have a word with the Australian government. If they pay us for training all the nurses to go working over there, we will pay them to train whatever Oz architects come over here, he said (or words to that effect - we know that the Oz taxpayer does not spend much money training graduates to work in the Irish economy).

You've been spouting this bitter strawman argument for the last few days, interspersed with self righteous grandstanding along the lines of "I pay tax, I'm great".

The simple flaw in your argument is if nurses (and I presume all college students?) were forced to pay loans they would be more motivated to emigrate in search of better salaries to repay debts or they just wouldn't be able to go to college in the first place.

Twenty Grand

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Sorry, I thought i did. Yep, mea culpa, I wrote something I thought I read elsewhere in this thread and I probably misremembered it.


If Ireland has higher wages, then why are Irish nurses flocking to the UK and elsewhere? Its doubtful to live in exotic UK. Maybe it's because they offer a better package than the HSE?

The majority of Irish nurses in the UK are ones who trained in the UK. Never met an Irish nurse in the UK who trained in the republic. Not saying it does'nt happen but I imagine it's rare.

Glenbhoy

Twenty Grand wrote: »

Tough sh*t.
If the HSE listened and made Irish hospitals attractive places to work then people wouldn't leave.

This isn't the fault of nurses. It's a systematic fault of the HSE and it's been aware for years. it's not just new graduates leaving either.

Everyone is leaving or threatening to leave.

I thought the dept of public expenditure found turnover rates were very low by comparison to both other industries in Ireland and half the turnover rates experienced in nursing in UK and Australia?

machiavellianme

alloywheel wrote: »

There is a 10 to 15% of nurses even in Australia churn rate too. People leave for all sorts of reasons - to see the world, to take up other areas of interest, to chase dreams, to follow partners work, to have kids or whatever.

Exactly. Nursing is a skill that travels. You can go anywhere with that qualification. Even if you doubled the pay here, you'd still have nurses leaving for the UK, Australia, Canada, wherever for a few years. The right answer here is a weighting factor for nurses in Dublin and other high cost rental areas OR a more sustainable approach by building on-site accommodation for nurses/doctors etc and giving them options before/after long shifts.

Twenty Grand

alloywheel wrote: »

To those who say our HSE is understaffed:

Quote: Ireland has " a high number of nurses per capita compared to other OECD countries in 2015. This resulted in Ireland having a significantly high ratio of nurses to doctors at 3.8 in 2015, well above the OECD average."
[URL="file:///C:/Users/John%20Greer/Downloads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing%20(5).pdf"]file:///C:/Users/John%20Greer/Downloads/3.-HSE-Pay-and-Staffing%20(5).pdf[/URL]

In the shambles that is the HSE, the Examiner says that the HSE: hires almost three times more office staff than nurses:https://www.irishexaminer.com/.../hse-hires-almost-three-times-more-office-staff-than-n

Too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

As I always said, if absenteeism in the HSE was not such a chronic problem, with sick days of 100,000 per month not unknown, then our hospitals would be much better places for everyone. Irish nurses have only themselves to blame for taking so many more sickies than those nurses in the NHS.

Listen [Redacted]. we've gone over all those numbers before many times.
They've all been discredited I'm not going to revisit them.

Every nursing group has said that nurses are understaffed and thousands are emigrating. You're quick to write that off as a normal occurance, but thousands are being poached to the UK and beyond.

You keep touting the official line that everything is AOk but we have nurses on the street in their thousands and the government caving to their demands straight away. There are failed government initiatives to bring nurses back to Ireland. There are horror stories from nurses and patients. How can you say that staffing is even at a normal level with all this going on?

daithi7

Health at a Glance 2015
How does Ireland compare?
KEY FINDINGS
 Although expenditure on pharmaceuticals in Ireland fell over the past few years, it still
remains well above the OECD average.
 The number of doctors per population is Ireland is lower than the OECD average,
while the number of nurses is higher. This does not mean that there are no shortages
of nurses if the demand for their services exceeds their supply.
Despite recent cuts, expenditure on pharmaceuticals in Ireland remains well above th....

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

Health at a Glance 2015
How does Ireland compare?
KEY FINDINGS
 Although expenditure on pharmaceuticals in Ireland fell over the past few years, it still
remains well above the OECD average.
 The number of doctors per population is Ireland is lower than the OECD average,
while the number of nurses is higher. This does not mean that there are no shortages
of nurses if the demand for their services exceeds their supply.
Despite recent cuts, expenditure on pharmaceuticals in Ireland remains well above th....

What is that? Is it a separate study or just referencing the same ridiculous disproven OECD study?

daithi7

By contrast with other OECD countries, the number of nurses per population in Ireland was not
greater in 2013 than what it was in 2000, but nonetheless remains higher than in most other OECD
countries, except in Nordic countries and in Switzerland and Germany.
Practising nurses per 1 000 population, 2000 and 2013 (or nearest year)

Number of Nurses per 1000
Ireland: 12.4
OECD average: 9.1

So Ireland employs 25% more nurses per capita than the OECD average

Source: OECD Health Statistics 2015, http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/health-data-en.

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

By contrast with other OECD countries, the number of nurses per population in Ireland was not
greater in 2013 than what it was in 2000, but nonetheless remains higher than in most other OECD
countries, except in Nordic countries and in Switzerland and Germany.
Practising nurses per 1 000 population, 2000 and 2013 (or nearest year)

Number of Nurses per 1000
Ireland: 12.4
OECD average: 9.1

So Ireland employs 25% more nurses per capita than the OECD average

Source: OECD Health Statistics 2015, http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/health-data-en.

Had a read of the most recent one.
Here's a few choice passages.

On the topic of staffing.

. In Ireland and Israel, the number of
nurses per capita declined between 2000 and 2015 as the
size of the population grew more rapidly than the number
of nurses

staff levels in decline??? What??


On the topic of nurses per population (popular topic here)

.. Data include not only nurses providing direct care to patients, but also those working in the health sector as managers, educators, researchers, etc.

etc etc etc.. highest numbers but not all involved in direct care. Front line nurse shortage??


On the topic of remuneration:

. Definition and comparability
The remuneration of nurses refers to average gross
annual income, including social security contributions
and income taxes payable by the employee. It should
normally include all extra formal payments, such as
bonuses and payments for night shifts and overtime.
Data refer only to registered (“professional”) nurses
in Chile, Ireland and the United States, resulting in
an over-estimation compared to other countries
where lower-level nurses (“associate professional”)
are also included

What??? Overestimated?? Who'd have thunk it??
The Oecd also puts Irish nurse wages at a ratio of 1.01 to the average wage here.

. Ireland and Israel had the highest rate of hospital
bed occupancy at approximately 94%, followed by Canada
at 92% and the United Kingdom at 84%.

Highest occupancy rates in the world. Bed shortage. Trolley crisis!

There's loads more that show Irish hospitals to be in a shambles and nurses to be average paid at best, even with their "over-estimates" figures.

Lads please read the links before you post them.

daithi7

OECD health spending, poorest outcomes
BY: MICHAEL HENNIGANCATEGORY: IRISH ECONOMY
Ireland has the second-highest health spending ratio in OECD area which comprises of 34 mainly developed countries but it has some of the worst health outcomes among advanced countries.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

Twenty Grand

daithi7 wrote: »

OECD health spending, poorest outcomes
BY: MICHAEL HENNIGANCATEGORY: IRISH ECONOMY
Ireland has the second-highest health spending ratio in OECD area which comprises of 34 mainly developed countries but it has some of the worst health outcomes among advanced countries.

http://www.finfacts.ie/Irish_finance_news/articleDetail.php?Ireland-second-highest-OECD-health-spending-poorest-outcomes-506

Firstly, it's well accepted the HSE is a black hole. I'm not arguing that. Very little is the fault of nurses and they shouldnt be financially punished for the fault of the HSE.

Secondly, what the hell is finfacts.ie???
Founded in 1997? Website looks like it's from 1997 :rolleyes:

brendanwalsh

Handmaids won't be accepting this chicken feed offer. They wanted 12 % and will be back on the pickets soon

hawkelady

brendanwalsh wrote: »

Handmaids won't be accepting this chicken feed offer. They wanted 12 % and will be back on the pickets soon

Wtf is this handmaiden crap Brendan ?

Galwayguy35

Considering the health spend is 15.3 billion of taxpayers money per year we should have the best health service in the world for a country of less than 5 million people.

This is something that everyone employed in the health service from the top down needs to answer before anyone should be talking about pay rises.

facehugger99

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Considering the health spend is 15.3 billion of taxpayers money per year we should have the best health service in the world for a country of less than 5 million people.

It's even worse than that - our population is quite young compared to most countries so our health spend should be considerably lower than the average.

We're being absolutely screwed over by the public service in this country and getting a load of sh;te in return.

Kivaro

Watched 2 nurses being interviewed last night on RTE news. They had just put their banners/placards etc. into the boot of their cars and then they answered questions from the reporter. "We're not dumping our signs", one said, "we're just putting them into storage".

Yep, it will be constant striking even if they did get 12%.
I am hoping that the striking nurses refuses the latest offer; all of which I happened to agree they should get. That actually surprised me that I did not have a problem with what was offered. I thought it was reasonable.
This is the opportunity for Government to say "no" when the nurses officially reject the offer. Hold firm. Recruit more foreign nurses. Let the striking ones emigrate if they wish. Holding patients and their families to ransom is an abomination. They also broke an existing agreement and every one of the striking nurses should be penalised for that.

James Brown

Pascal, Simon and the boys were not aware that costs can go up. They never did a cost analysis, they merely took the lowest quote and hoped for the best. Next time they'll look more closely. Now move along. It seems any one of us could have put in a tender and won the contract.
But these Nurses, crooks... :rolleyes:

omega man

A lot of social media commenting, including from nurses, about rejecting this ‘government’ deal. The reality is rejecting a labour court recommendation will surely lead to a less sympathetic public and I suspect the INMO will be cognisant if this.

Randle P. McMurphy

Twenty Grand wrote: »

I really doubt that.

I always wondered what studying would have been like pre internet.
Suppose if you couldn't find an answer in the library, then you had to start phoning people.

Yeah. That's what we did in my day. Whip out the mobile phone and ask around. Oh wait...

hawkelady

omega man wrote: »

A lot of social media commenting, including from nurses, about rejecting this ‘government’ deal. The reality is rejecting a labour court recommendation will surely lead to a less sympathetic public and I suspect the INMO will be cognisant if this.

Not as simple as that though. If you read the document it states that basically new contracts will be signed , without stating if the new contract has the new pension agreements in it , which would be worse than a contract signed in the early 2000s regarding pensions alone .... it’s a wait and see but any nurse with a pre 2003 contract would be mad to agree to something that might affect her pension without knowing every detail.