Shane Ross' new speeding penalties

_Kaiser_

So Ross is to bring his speeding penalty changes to cabinet today

From RTE :

those driving up to 10km/h above the speed limit could pay a fine of €80 and receive between three and five penalty points.


If you drive up to 20km/h over the allowed speed there would be a €150 fine and between four and six points placed on your licence.

Motorists driving between 20km/h and 30km/h over the speed limit will be hit with a €200 fine and up to seven penalty points.

Anyone driving in excess of 30km/h above the speed limits will be charged with dangerous driving.

The minister will also propose the introduction of variable speed limits on the M50 motorway in Dublin.

Let's forego the usual "speed kills" and "don't speed, don't get caught" stuff shall we?

Personally I think those changes are very harsh, especially for motorway drivers where 10-20 km/h over is not at all the same as in an urban area. This doesn't seem to have been factored in, and of course even the minimum penalty is higher than it is already which given how long the points stay on your license could see many off the road very quickly.

What say ye? Proportionate or overkill?

deisedevil

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So Ross is to bring his speeding penalty changes to cabinet today

From RTE :



Let's forego the usual "speed kills" and "don't speed, don't get caught" stuff shall we?

Personally I think those changes are very harsh, especially for motorway drivers where 10-20 km/h over is not at all the same as in an urban area.

What say ye? Proportionate or overkill?

Need a poll maybe.

Overkill.

Tzardine

I think it is a great idea. Hits those that drive the most recklessly.

If you really want to see serious penalties for speeding look at the Swiss model. They will take a fixed percentage of you annual income for the worst speeding offences. One lad got a fine of about 700,000., well he was going 170kmh over the limit.

The way they tier the offences and the penalties is actually quite fair IMO. Small penalty for minor speeding that scales pretty quickly with greater speed. I have driven quite a bit over there and people do not speed as a result.

https://www.ch.ch/en/driving-over-speed-limit/

uck51js9zml2yt

It will only effect those who speed....good man Shane:)

I say 10 points for driving under the limit ,
Stuck behind some arsehole doing 25/30kph in a 60/50 zone for 10 mins yesterday.
Breaking all the way up to green lights

Thestones

If speed cameras were set up in genuine accident black spots then yes but this country is notorious for putting in speed traps in ridiculous places just for the purpose of 'catching' you and making money 'not' to reduce to accidents. Speed traps are against an EU directive but we only follow the EU when it suits us. In Australia the purpose of speed cameras is to make you slow down in dangerous areas not to catch to make money, they warn you 3 or 4 times speed camera ahead so if you get caught you absolutely deserve it unlike the cloak and dagger shenanigans we do here.

amcalester

It might make more sense to link it to the speed limits that are being broken.

10km/h over in a 50 zone is worse than on a motorway, but 2 issues with that.

1 it introduces confusion and 2 We’d take the absolute piss with it anyway so what’s the point.

The Bishop Basher

Those points are off the scale..

Dangerous driving for being 30kph over the limit on a motorway is farsical especially with the reduced limits we have in many places..

Toyotafanboi

Seems a bit harsh to me. I'm all for proportionate penalties for speeding but almost doubling the fine and points for the most minor offence is insane, from €80 And 3 points to €80 and possibly 5 points? That's a joke.

If anything the category of "up to 10km/h over the limit" should be reduced to €50 And 2 points or something. Anyone can slip a tiny bit over the limit accidentally to be fair. The proposed new rules would give you just 2 chances in any 3 year period or you're off the road. I know 2 chances is 2 too many but human nature will have you make the odd mistake.

4ensic15

BrownFinger wrote: »

I say 10 points for driving under the limit ,
Stuck behind some arsehole doing 25/30kph in a 60/50 zone for 10 mins yesterday.
Breaking all the way up to green lights

Was it a small low-powered hatchback?

Gingganggooley

Easily known that he can take all day getting from A to B sitting in the back of a chauffeur driven limousine. Wan###r

OldMrBrennan83

The 'up to 10km/h over' is a little bit harsh but the rest are spot on.

Iseedeadpixels

He also wants a on the spot fine and points if you dont have you license on you.....Wanna hope you never forget your wallet then!

seamus

Any changes should be harsh tbh. We need a good dose of cop on in this country. Driving is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that should be hard to earn and easy to lose. Getting caught speeding once in 3 years is a stupid mistake. Twice is being sloppy. Three times means you're a danger. Realistically the 3rd strike should come with a ban.

It's very easy not to speed. We all know that. The only reason we whinge about these penalties is because we want to break the limits from time to time. How about we just...don't?

These will be significantly softened anyway, if they even get further than cabinet.

The Bishop Basher

I suppose politicians and guards don’t have to worry anyway so no skin off their backs either way.

JPCN1

Overkill.

The most odious politician in the Dail wants more attention.

Balmed Out

I think its silly as it is at the moment. Most people i know to have got caught speeding have either accelerated too quickly leaving an urban area as a roads limit changes or the opposite and deceleeared too slowly. Being 5kmph over the limit in this situation is not comparible to being over the limit in an urban area. The guards should have some amount of discretion to award a single point or more depending on the road and speed.

munster87

BrownFinger wrote: »

I say 10 points for driving under the limit ,
Stuck behind some arsehole doing 25/30kph in a 60/50 zone for 10 mins yesterday.
Breaking all the way up to green lights

Also a prison sentence if in the right hand lane and moving slower than the left lane

V8 Interceptor

Tzardine wrote: »

I think it is a great idea. Hits those that drive the most recklessly.

If you really want to see serious penalties for speeding look at the Swiss model. They will take a fixed percentage of you annual income for the worst speeding offences. One lad got a fine of about 700,000., well he was going 170kmh over the limit.

The way they tier the offences and the penalties is actually quite fair IMO. Small penalty for minor speeding that scales pretty quickly with greater speed. I have driven quite a bit over there and people do not speed as a result.

https://www.ch.ch/en/driving-over-speed-limit/

Because the Swiss do something ludicrous doesn't mean we should follow them.

How about the way the Germans let you drive as fast as you like on some of their roads?

seamie78

does anybody know does shane ross drive

_Kaiser_

seamie78 wrote: »

does anybody know does shane ross drive

Don't think he does. Seem to remember stuff about him cycling or getting buses back into Stepaside.

Peatys

I've no problem with 20 or so over the 120 on a motor way. But I'll stare the bejasus out of anyone doing anything over 20kms/h near a school/shops car park/housing estate

seamie78

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Don't think he does. Seem to remember stuff about him cycling or getting buses back into Stepaside.

sounds about right

Slattsy

I think a tough stance on excessive speed would be warranted, and will certainly make people think twice about speeding.
Whether that's a bigger fine, additional penalty points, or a charge on dangerous driving, it's certainly one to be debated openly and fairly.

However the penalties listed for lesser speeds is ridiculous.

Car99

If this bill has the intention to save lives it needs to look at the location of speed traps by the Gardai . A high percentage of garda speed traps I see are on the straight stretches of motorway with high volumes of traffic and in good weather . Those traps are revenue and number building traps and will do little if anything to improve road safety.

4ensic15

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

He also wants a on the spot fine and points if you dont have you license on you.....Wanna hope you never forget your wallet then!

If the driver doesn't have a licence, the car should be seized and not given back until a licence is produced.

highdef

Iseedeadpixels wrote: »

He also wants a on the spot fine and points if you dont have you license on you.....Wanna hope you never forget your wallet then!

I keep mine in licence holder on the the sun visor. No chance of forgetting it.

seamus

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the driver doesn't have a licence, the car should be seized and not given back until a licence is produced.

I guess it would make people think about it more seriously. Bit harsh though. A bit of linking of databases would solve a lot of problems. ANPR scans the number plate, details of insurance & tax come up, as well as the registered owner's driving licence and photo.

So at least if the person who has forgotten their licence is also the owner, the Gardai can confirm on the spot.

It's generally not a problem for me, I always have my wallet in my pocket. But especially for the ladies who will change handbags 3 or 4 times a week, it would be easy to forget your licence.

highdef wrote: »

I keep mine in licence holder on the the sun visor. No chance of forgetting it.

Until you go to drive someone else's car

Mooooo

Whatever about the fines but if they want to slow people down make the speed vans visible or even put up permanent cameras at black spots. Not much good in points and a fine being sent in the post if an accident due to speed happens to the same car down the road. Seen plenty of speed vans parked in the ditch at a changing of limits. Only there to send fines
The 10 km an hour increase seems harsh if on motorway. What's the margin of error in the accuracy of Speedometers?

CrankyHaus

Without consistent enforcement harsh penalties are pointless and even somewhat unfair.
Such harsh penalties will just cause an increasing number of businessmen and others who need to drive for work to challenge the points in court, clogging up the courts as road traffic matters did before we introduced penalty points to address that very problem.

I find the manner in which speeding is currently addressed to be reasonable and effective.
I rarely see dangerous speeding that makes me worry for the safety of road users.

I regularly see wilfully dangerous driving that makes me wonder how nobody is injured or killed - this is usually mobile phone use at the wheel, deliberate breaking of red lights and playing chicken with other motorists at junctions.
I'd have a lot more respect for a politician who addresses this than one who lazily curries favour with the road safety lobby by parroting mantras from the 1990's and imposing unworkable penalties that will probably not be enforced and certainly won't be enforced consistently.

BronsonTB

Why not improve enforcement of existing laws first!
(And increase the speed limits on some roads before penalising the motorist!)

Until they change from the 'speed only' concentration & each driver actually becomes responsible (for there vehicle)
Zero respect for the RSA
Zero respect for the Garda
Zero respect for the Councils
Zero respect for the Politicians
Zero respect for ignorant drivers that ignore the existing laws causing Shane Ross to propose such new measures

Everyone has a part to play but complete complacency is commonplace by everyone.

Melodeon

The simplistic 10Km/h over, 20Km/h over, etc, increments are disproportionate in my opinion.
50Km/h in a 40Km/h zone is a more egregious transgression than 130Km/h in a 120Km/h zone, again in my opinion.

A percentage based scale would be more acceptable, I think: 10% over, 20% over, etc, perhaps.

antodeco

Is dangerous speeding* really that bad of an epidemic in this country?

Are most speed related fatalities not on boreens, or at 4am, or single vehicle drivers?

More emphasis on drink driving and driving education is what is needed. Slow oblivious drivers are more dangerous!

*I'm defining dangerous speeding at either significantly over the speed limit or "over the limit" in poor conditions

whomitconcerns

Ridiculous idea. I'm in London these days and the UK limits and new fines were added last year. They are based on percentages. IE 30mph in a 20 mph zone is much more serious than 80mph in a 70mph zone. Bigger fine and more points. Why can't we do it like this if we have to do it?

5 penalty points for 130km/h on an empty dry motorway is insane!

Tzardine

V8 Interceptor wrote: »

Because the Swiss do something ludicrous doesn't mean we should follow them.

How about the way the Germans let you drive as fast as you like on some of their roads?

Is is ludicrous though? They have half the fatalities per year than we do and are actually the second lowest in the world.

Isn't that the whole point at the end of the day when it comes to road safety?

Padraig Mor

seamus wrote: »

Any changes should be harsh tbh. We need a good dose of cop on in this country. Driving is a privilege, not a right. A privilege that should be hard to earn and easy to lose. Getting caught speeding once in 3 years is a stupid mistake. Twice is being sloppy. Three times means you're a danger. Realistically the 3rd strike should come with a ban.

It's very easy not to speed. We all know that. The only reason we whinge about these penalties is because we want to break the limits from time to time. How about we just...don't?

These will be significantly softened anyway, if they even get further than cabinet.

How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!

happyoutscan

He's working for Revenue obviously.

lawred2

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So Ross is to bring his speeding penalty changes to cabinet today

From RTE :



Let's forego the usual "speed kills" and "don't speed, don't get caught" stuff shall we?

Personally I think those changes are very harsh, especially for motorway drivers where 10-20 km/h over is not at all the same as in an urban area. This doesn't seem to have been factored in, and of course even the minimum penalty is higher than it is already which given how long the points stay on your license could see many off the road very quickly.

What say ye? Proportionate or overkill?

it should be percentage based

seamie78

so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed

Bannasidhe

seamie78 wrote: »

so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed

In Australia you can be off the road in a single weekend - they double the penalty points on bank holiday weekends.

seamus

Padraig Mor wrote: »

How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!

I think it's fair to say that an approach of only going after the "bad" things is what we operated for many years, and it doesn't really work that well. Mainly because people realise that by staying below the bar of acceptability, they can get away with poor driving.

Road safety needs to be taken as a whole. Overall hygiene is more important than focussing all your resources on the problem areas.

Not least because the people who drink-drive, the people who have no insurance and the people who break the speed limits, will all have significant overlaps. People who break the more serious laws, habitually break the less serious ones.

So if you focus on less serious issues, like speeding, you will by default also catch those who engage in more serious behaviour. There is nobody on the road who drinks their head off, gets in the car, but never, ever breaks the speed limit.

There is also the amplifying effect - if more conscientious drivers are paying more attention to adhering to the "small" issues, then the drivers who break them habitually will stick out like a sore thumb. If everyone is ignoring lights and breaking speed limits by 10km/h, then the actual dangerous drivers are that little bit less obvious and harder to catch.

MTBD

Tzardine wrote: »

Is is ludicrous though? They have half the fatalities per year than we do and are actually the second lowest in the world.

Isn't that the whole point at the end of the day when it comes to road safety?

And is there any evidence whatsoever that their safety record is linked to income related fines?

They also have some of the most flawless roads in the world. Have you ever driven on a Swiss road? If you can find a pothole there, please take a picture and put it on the internet. And they also have one of the highest income rates of all countries meaning that they drive newer and safer cars.

Causation and correlation are not the same thing.

4ensic15

seamus wrote: »

I guess it would make people think about it more seriously. Bit harsh though. A bit of linking of databases would solve a lot of problems. ANPR scans the number plate, details of insurance & tax come up, as well as the registered owner's driving licence and photo.

So at least if the person who has forgotten their licence is also the owner, the Gardai can confirm on the spot.

How do they know the person driving the car is the owner unless the driver has a licence? It could be anybody.

Hurrache

This thread will get hysterical before long. It couldn't be easier to avoid getting fines and points, those that exist now or which will in the future. It's a bold move to raise the possibility of introducing them, and should cop a few people on.

Andrewf20

Sounds excessive. Enforcing harsh limits like this when conditions are good (clear, dry day with low traffic levels) is not a efficient way to making safer roads.

This country also has a reputation for having speed limits on certain roads that seem to defy reason, meaning that if you miss the speed limit sign your intuition of what the limit is could see you get points when you least expect it. 50km/h on parts of the n81? (How is this the same as a housing estate?). Dunboyne bypass is 60km/h despite nothing of any danger on it. 30km/h limits on n3/4/7 - m50 links are another example. It would create a world where people are constantly checking their speedometer rather than spending more time looking at the road if paranoia about points sets in.

It really bugs me how digital limits are created for an analog world. Is 145km/h on an empty, dry motorway really more dangerous than 120km/h in heavy motorway traffic in the rain.

EdgeCase

Irish road traffic fatalities are also very low by international standards.

I think I would weight those penalties differently.

1. Urban speed limits needs to be adhered to. Doing more than 10kmh above a 50 should carry a far heavier penalty than doing a 10km above 120 kmh on a motorway.

2. Link it to road type. I would also argue that on single carriage way roads there's a far greater need to stick to the speed limit. There are plenty of so called National Roads here with N designations that can't even handle 80kmh in some stretches.

seamus

4ensic15 wrote: »

How do they know the person driving the car is the owner unless the driver has a licence? It could be anybody.

Simple sanity check, that's all. ANPR pops up the details of the car, including the licence of the registered owner (if they have one).

It means that if you do forget your licence while driving your own car, then the Gardai don't have to waste their time and your time, seizing the vehicle until you produce a licence. They can see off-the-bat that you have one.

You could also provide the means for people to voluntarily link their licence to a vehicle (e.g. your spouse's car), so ANPR can pull up licence details of anyone who normally drives it.

99% of the "no licence on me" situations are probably perfectly innocent. So while in theory I fully agree with lifting and seizing for no tax, insurance or licence, in practice we should minimise the volume of false positives. Laws which are hard to enforce are less likely to get enforced. Seizing a vehicle is slow and annoying, so we should ensure Gardai only have to do it when it's necessary.

highdef

seamie78 wrote: »

so two speeding offences in 3 years and your off the road, I know of people who got caught twice in the same spot on the same day by a hidden speed trap. And I am not talking excessive speed

I've never heard of a hidden speed trap before although I can't say they don't exist as it's possible I just haven't seen them!

Having said that, the people you know who were caught twice in one day must need their eyes checked or something. I've been driving over 18 years and am yet to get my first ticket of any kind.

seamie78

highdef wrote: »

I've never heard of a hidden speed trap before although I can't say they don't exist as it's possible I just haven't seen them!

Having said that, the people you know who were caught quite twice in one day must need their eyes checked out something. I've been driving over 18 years and am yet to get my first ticket of any kind.

I myself have only had one speeding offence in 16 years driving, however I do think these new rules are excessive. I feel the present system works well in relation to speed

Micky 32

Padraig Mor wrote: »

How about we tackle the problems which are actually causing deaths on our roads (unlike driving in excess of the speed limit, which is the primary cause of only ~5% of fatal crashes)? Say proper drink driving (by which I mean the huge numbers driving at multiples of the limit in rural areas every weekend, rather then the 'drop the limit to 50, and bag a few people the next day' PR stunts), and the seeming legions of banned and disqualified drivers driving around with an empty windscreen? Nah, that stuff is hard to tackle - let's go for another PR press release instead!

Aye the mentality of good old Ireland. If people researched they'll see that excessive speed isn't the biggest cause of road deaths on irish roads.


Head on collisions, lack of attention, bad roads, inexperience , mobile phones, drinking , people on the wrong side of the road over white lines etc etc..


I was involved in a head on collision once. A yank on the wrong side of the road on a bend. We were both doing 45mph in a 50mph zone ( it was 1998). Both cars were absolutely annihalated with the other driver with bad breakages, shoulder etc. All you could hear was the auld ones on the side of the road that had stopped at the scene " God they must have being going an awful merciful speed" :rolleyes:

highdef

I agree that a percentage based system would be most suitable. 10% might seem a bit low to many but don't forget that would be 10% over the actual speed, not what your Speedo says. Your speedo could be reading 140 on the motorway but it's quite likely that you're still doing less than 10% over the 120 limit.

Strict enforcement of the 50 should be enforced as these areas are must likely to have pedestrians about the place.