Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

pjohnson

Foxtrol wrote: »

But they've shown that they aren't ok with people who get powers other ways and cant control them. Hulk and Scarlet Witch were two of the causes of the requirement to register, with the former going into self imposed exile and the latter being basically under house arrest to being in jail to being on the run for years.

In the US, more people die from domestic terrorism than foreign terrorists, but that didn't stop them electing a President who ran on a 'Muslim Ban', mainly due to fear-mongering about terrorists acts by people of that faith. Looking closer to home, look at Brexit and how much of that was driven by further fear mongering of foreigners. What people fear isn't necessarily rational and there is a big difference between a handful of super powered Avengers on TV and mutants popping up in your local area, who could blow up your child's school or burn down your house. With their gene they can be targeted and put 'under control'.

Plus sticking with that with Magneto (or Toad/Mystique/Havok/Mastermind/Joseph versions) Broterhood, Magneto's Acolytes, Mr. Sinister and his "Nasty Boys" (that name will need some work soon), the MLF etc. all commiting terrorist acts it doesn't help mutants.

These acts of those groups gave feul to the likes of Stryker and Graydon Creed to incite the mutant hatred further.

Not that disimilar to how some (not all) use ISIS as a way to fear monger against all immigrants.

RayCun

Foxtrol wrote: »

But they've shown that they aren't ok with people who get powers other ways and cant control them. Hulk and Scarlet Witch were two of the causes of the requirement to register, with the former going into self imposed exile and the latter being basically under house arrest to being in jail to being on the run for years.

rather than arguing with that description, let's accept it for the sake of argument.

In that case, why would mutants be different?
If a mutant can't control their powers or refuses to sign - hunt them, arrest them, whatever.
If a mutant can control their powers and signs up for the army - cool, give them a cool codename and a costume.

RayCun

pjohnson wrote: »

Plus sticking with that with Magneto (or Toad/Mystique/Havok/Mastermind/Joseph versions) Broterhood, Magneto's Acolytes, Mr. Sinister and his "Nasty Boys" (that name will need some work soon), the MLF etc. all commiting terrorist acts it doesn't help mutants.

These acts of those groups gave feul to the likes of Stryker and Graydon Creed to incite the mutant hatred further.

Magneto et al are usually portrayed as justifying their actions as a response to existing persecution.
Where does that come from?

Foxtrol

RayCun wrote: »

rather than arguing with that description, let's accept it for the sake of argument.

In that case, why would mutants be different?
If a mutant can't control their powers or refuses to sign - hunt them, arrest them, whatever.
If a mutant can control their powers and signs up for the army - cool, give them a cool codename and a costume.

And there's nothing to stop Marvel from going that route in the MCU and it would be fine for most stories they want to tell. We've seen how the Avengers were fine and helped their government chase and imprison their close friends for not registering or controlling their powers. They aren't going to throw all mutants into internment camps straight off the bat, but there's no sign there would be push back from them to having mutants register and keeping those who can't control their powers off the streets.

To keep with the real world US example, there are plenty of Muslim people in the US army but there is a huge focus on getting 'the bad ones' and this results in many situations where perfectly innocent people are still feared and ostracized by many.

Foxtrol

RayCun wrote: »

Magneto et al are usually portrayed as justifying their actions as a response to existing persecution.
Where does that come from?

The same as Captain America etc, being asked to register for something they were born with and seeing mutants who can't control their powers being taken off the streets by the government. The former went into hiding where as the latter want to fight back.

I'm struggling to see what the huge difficulty you're seeing with having the Avengers and mutants in the same world

RayCun

Foxtrol wrote: »

They aren't going to throw all mutants into internment camps straight off the bat, but there's no sign there would be push back from them to having mutants register and keeping those who can't control their powers off the streets.

Foxtrol wrote: »

I'm struggling to see what the huge difficulty you're seeing with having the Avengers and mutants in the same world

If mutants are just another group of people with weird abilities, then there's no difficulty.

The difficulty is that usually the comics treated mutants as different from other people with weird abilities, that was generally a core element of the stories.

Foxtrol

RayCun wrote: »

If mutants are just another group of people with weird abilities, then there's no difficulty.

The difficulty is that usually the comics treated mutants as different from other people with weird abilities, that was generally a core element of the stories.

You're ignoring the core elements as why mutants would be different than those others (that the movies have shown the public and world governments don't really like to begin with):

1) The number of them. Mutants will likely start appearing everywhere, it'll be your next door neighbour or your kid's classmate rather than a handful of people you see every now and again on TV.

2) They can be identified. Their gene (and sometimes their appearance) will allow them to be targeted when for most others 'super folk' unless they are unmasked their identity can be kept secret.

3) They'll have other mutants committing acts of violence in their name. As pjohnson pointed out, the Brotherhood etc will likely take actions that will further turn the public against the mutants

As I said, they already did a similar storyline with the Inhumans in Agents of Shield and it fitted in perfectly with the events leading up to and after Civil War.

RayCun

Foxtrol wrote: »

1) The number of them. Mutants will likely start appearing everywhere, it'll be your next door neighbour or your kid's classmate rather than a handful of people you see every now and again on TV.

If mutants are everywhere and randomly distributed, that's less reason for them to be persecuted. Would you stand back and watch your next door neighbour or kid's classmate be dragged off to a camp? What about your nephew or niece?

These are people that live the same lives as you, look like you, watch the same tv and listen to the same music. They wake up one morning and they're changed in one respect, but not in others.

Sure, if that kid next door blows up the school you'll want his blood, but what if he wakes up next day with scaly skin? Will you be rounding him up?

Foxtrol wrote: »

2) They can be identified. Their gene (and sometimes their appearance) will allow them to be targeted when for most others 'super folk' unless they are unmasked their identity can be kept secret.

Yeah, identified with widespread genetic testing. Are you going to sign up for that? I won't, mutant or not.

Foxtrol wrote: »

3) They'll have other mutants committing acts of violence in their name. As pjohnson pointed out, the Brotherhood etc will likely take actions that will further turn the public against the mutants

They'll have mutants committing acts of violence in their name if we start rounding them up and sending them to concentration camps. So what if we don't?

Ethereal Cereal

I just don't think mutants work in a society with super hero's. When the x-men were first wrote, there wasn't the same level of integration of stories as there is today. I dont see how people can be prejudiced against someone who got there superpowers from an x gene, yet still admire earths super heroes.

*Alltho, after the death of 100's of 1000's of ppl after the snappening, maybe the public turn on superheros?

I really don't see Marvel Entertainment incorporating mutants into the MCU. And I would prefer it that way. I would rather see Marvel head a mutant only movie universe. Similar to what we have today, but a much higher quality.

pjohnson

Maybe the X-Men were better off at Fox if Marvel are *according to some here* just going to keep them shoved out of the way. Seems remarkably stupid they bothered going for the X-Men at all.

Going to the effort of binning all mutants away in a corner is a waste. Hell thats the kind of dumphole place guys like Cable and Bishop try to prevent and get the hell out off so if they are already stuck in shít creek why not just leave them with Fox?

It sounds like people want the Kitty Pryde DoFP timeline to be the main X-Verse :pac:


Think its safe to assume Marvel have plans for their investment that dont involve banishing them to an alternate universe. Altho given that almost every Marvel comic crossover between 2000 - 2018 was apparently "the one" that would banish/exterminate mutants for good to screw Fox over and yet it never happened and instead characters like X-23 and Hope Summers were introduced and the mutants remained. Even when Marvel did try to push Inhumans to the front it simply didn't sell and they had to drop that push.

Foxtrol

RayCun wrote: »

If mutants are everywhere and randomly distributed, that's less reason for them to be persecuted. Would you stand back and watch your next door neighbour or kid's classmate be dragged off to a camp? What about your nephew or niece?

These are people that live the same lives as you, look like you, watch the same tv and listen to the same music. They wake up one morning and they're changed in one respect, but not in others.

Sure, if that kid next door blows up the school you'll want his blood, but what if he wakes up next day with scaly skin? Will you be rounding him up?

US elected a president who ran on a Muslim ban and despite what some right wing personalities believe they don't have powers to kill or destroy large parts of towns with a thought. Who's to give you comfort that the kid with the scales doesn't also have the power to blow up a school? It is perfectly plausible that people could think that way in that situation and if you can suspend disbelief to watch a comic book movie then this shouldn't be a struggle.

Yeah, identified with widespread genetic testing. Are you going to sign up for that? I won't, mutant or not.

Sentinels have been known to be able to detect the X-gene, no need to sign up to anything.

They'll have mutants committing acts of violence in their name if we start rounding them up and sending them to concentration camps. So what if we don't?

I never mentioned concentration camps.

They're in a world where Avengers have taken out their own team members when they lost control of their powers and threw others in jail for not registering. The mere act of demanding a registration has been seen by Magneto as being enough justification and the government and Avengers are hadly going to allow uncontrolled superpowered people run wild.

If anything your Kumbaya 'what if we don't do anything' is far less plausible outcome in the built MCU world than what I've proposed.

Foxtrol

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

I just don't think mutants work in a society with super hero's. When the x-men were first wrote, there wasn't the same level of integration of stories as there is today. I dont see how people can be prejudiced against someone who got there superpowers from an x gene, yet still admire earths super heroes.

*Alltho, after the death of 100's of 1000's of ppl after the snappening, maybe the public turn on superheros?

I really don't see Marvel Entertainment incorporating mutants into the MCU. And I would prefer it that way. I would rather see Marvel head a mutant only movie universe. Similar to what we have today, but a much higher quality.

Throughout the MCU movies they've made it clear that a large part of society and especially world governments don't admire the current super heroes though. Their 'victories' have come at huge death, cost, and destruction.

pjohnson

Foxtrol wrote: »

Throughout the MCU movies they've made it clear that a large part of society and especially world governments don't admire the current super heroes though. Their 'victories' have come at huge death, cost, and destruction.

Yep not just Zemo there was that lady who told Stark to his face she blamed him for her son dying in Sokovia (technically she was right since he DID create Ultron) but yeah the absolute idea that all Avengers are loved and all X-Men hated is just bizarre.

Foxtrol

pjohnson wrote: »

Yep not just Zemo there was that lady who told Stark to his face she blamed him for her son dying in Sokovia (technically she was right since he DID create Ultron) but yeah the absolute idea that all Avengers are loved and all X-Men hated is just bizarre.

There are loads of other examples of how the Avengers are disliked - Scarlet Witch taking out that building by accident, all the stuff Hulk did until Endgame (e.g. Harlem, NY, Africa), repeated comments about Loki's connection to Thor and how that led to so much destruction, how the Sokovia crowd attacks Iron Legion at the start of AoU, SHIELD/Hydra being so close to the Avengers, no noted public outcry about registration, jailing of super heroes, or forcing Captain America and crew to go on the run.

They could go a lot of routes with public sentiment towards the Avengers post Endgame, but I'm pretty confident that it won't be a love fest. The planet will likely face serious repercussions due to the return of the 50% and even if they know the Avengers saved them they won't avoid all blame due to the fallout.

RayCun

It's easy to turn people into "the other" when you don't have contact with them. The Fox news **** plays best when it is talking about Muslims far away - no go zones in London for example - or people speaking different languages, or coastal elites.

If random people turn into mutants in their teens, then it's the kid you know from playdates and football games, whose mom is in the same church group as you and whose dad drinks in the same bar. Much harder to whip up hate in those circumstances.

Foxtrol

RayCun wrote: »

It's easy to turn people into "the other" when you don't have contact with them. The Fox news **** plays best when it is talking about Muslims far away - no go zones in London for example - or people speaking different languages, or coastal elites.

If random people turn into mutants in their teens, then it's the kid you know from playdates and football games, whose mom is in the same church group as you and whose dad drinks in the same bar. Much harder to whip up hate in those circumstances.

Hate is an aspect that I believe would be there but you're ignoring the understandable fear that superpowers bring.

In some instances kids have powers that are akin to giving them an assault rifle to walk around or something much more powerful. Would you want your child going to class with a teenager who carries around live grenades? No matter how well you know the child or their parents, there is a decent chance their powers could hurt your child, whether intentional or not.

Whether you think you'd be above that and believe it wouldn't change how you would look at that child, there is justification for people to relate to that fear today as it was when the original x-men comic books came out.

pjohnson

Foxtrol wrote: »

Hate is an aspect that I believe would be there but you're ignoring the understandable fear that superpowers bring.

In some instances kids have powers that are akin to giving them an assault rifle to walk around or something much more powerful. Would you want your child going to class with a teenager who carries around live grenades? No matter how well you know the child or their parents, there is a decent chance their powers could hurt your child, whether intentional or not.

Whether you think you'd be above that and believe it wouldn't change how you would look at that child, there is justification for people to relate to that fear today as it was when the original x-men comic books came out.

I think its just another case of the "how did Pepper use the armor" discussion from a few pages ago at this stage.

brianregan09

Just a few thoughts on the whole Female Heroes Assemble and the silly backlash some people have given it ,

Calhoun

I would agree, what is the difference between a mutant and a super hero? very little in my eyes.

Its the world around them that is different and defines them more i think.

Calhoun

brianregan09 wrote: »

Just a few thoughts on the whole Female Heroes Assemble and the silly backlash some people have given it ,

Don't take this the wrong way but probably be best if you had a script or a few notes to follow on your video. Was a little bit rambling and basically your point is that its only 20 seconds long in a 3 hour film and little girls like it and let them have it.

I like the scene allot but felt it could have been better had the film had a consistent female lead for the whole film. It impact wasn't the same because of that.

Mr Crispy

Finally got around to seeing it his evening. Will have a sleep and a ponder tomorrow, but my initial reaction is that I didn't like it anywhere near as much as I enjoyed Infinity War.

brianregan09

Calhoun wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way but probably be best if you had a script or a few notes to follow on your video. Was a little bit rambling and basically your point is that its only 20 seconds long in a 3 hour film and little girls like it and let them have it.

I like the scene allot but felt it could have been better had the film had a consistent female lead for the whole film. It impact wasn't the same because of that.

No offense taken what so ever only really starred doing these discussion videos the last few days so still learning

Calhoun

brianregan09 wrote: »

No offense taken what so ever only really starred doing these discussion videos the last few days so still learning

Ah cool, best of luck with them. Do you know much about the expanded lore in the universe?

I have only ever really followed the films so allot of the comic stuff i find interesting as hell.

brianregan09

I've followed the comics since I was a kid so I do have a Big of knowledge to say the least ����

pjohnson

brianregan09 wrote: »

I've followed the comics since I was a kid so I do have a Big of knowledge to say the least ����

Kudos. Takes some big balls to put yourself up on youtube like that man!

Calhoun

brianregan09 wrote: »

I've followed the comics since I was a kid so I do have a Big of knowledge to say the least ����

I'll give you a follow so, some of the stuff I have learned on threads like these has been so cool . I love listening to YouTube when I'm driving on topics I have interest in.

Calhoun

Went to see it again tonight, Bucky definitely knew what he was planning, and i would say helped him make the decision.

Makes sense in a way considering that Bucky wouldn't be considered friendly to the US.

irish_stevo815

Saw it for a second time last night and nearly enjoyed it a bit more. I guess with all the hype and excitement of not knowing made me appreciate more. Still had all the emotional gut punches though.

One thing I noticed was when Nat finds Clint in Tokyo, the Vormir music is playing. Nice bit of foreboding there

Doctor DooM

This just occurred to me yesterday:

There is a Marvel comics event named Endgame. It's not really famous or big like Infinity Gauntlet or Secret Wars, but it is interesting.

It's the event that broke up the status quo of the time for the x-books and lead to the creation of the blue and gold X-Men teams (the ones the 90's cartoon series is based on).

It's also the kick off for the Cable character, with Nathan Summers dayspring d'askani son (really that's Cable's full name) being sent to the future to become him.

It'd be a crazy easter egg if the Endgame film led to the formation of the X-Men or the time travelling shenanigans led to Cable showing up somewhere down the line

pixelburp

So Kevin Feige let it slip that Endgame is going to be re-released in the (US?) cinemas, complete with extra footage. No details on when, or how much footage mind you.

Just when you thought there might be some slice of the year without any Disney film playing, oh no, how naive.