Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

Frank Bullitt

quokula wrote: »

While he's been a step up from Gasly, Albon is really not doing anything special. He beats everyone that's not in a RB / Ferrari / Mercedes, and loses to everyone who is. 99% of average drivers will finish in the same place.

It's true Max has been in some incidents and lost out here and there, but in the last race for example Verstappen had the speed to compete for the win if Hamilton hadn't hit him, while Albon never looked anywhere near giving the Ferraris or Mercedes any trouble. It's easy to get in fewer accidents when you're not fast enough to be fighting anyone else for position.

Hmmmm, this is a bit of a "if my aunty had wheels, she'd be a wagon" argument.

If Verstappen didn't have this, that or the other happen to him, he would be beating Albon. But, he has been making mistakes and they are costing him. Albon has made his fair share of them as well in Russia and Mexico, where he crashed on the Fridays, yet recovers to get a solid haul of points on the Sunday, where it counts.



I am more of a facts person, and the numbers speak for themselves.

pjohnson

Gintonious wrote: »

Hmmmm, this is a bit of a "if my aunty had wheels, she'd be a wagon" argument.

If Verstappen didn't have this, that or the other happen to him, he would be beating Albon. But, he has been making mistakes and they are costing him. Albon has made his fair share of them as well in Russia and Mexico, where he crashed on the Fridays, yet recovers to get a solid haul of points on the Sunday, where it counts.



I am more of a facts person, and the numbers speak for themselves.

Also Gasly got 63 pts in the Red Bull from 12 races.

Albon already has 58 pts from 6 races....its no contest Albon gets the seat.

Harika

Gasly is happy and performing well in the Toro rosso, Albon steadily improving in the red bull. Seems like a clear option for me

BDI

Shocked at Albon outscoring max but when you think of it if Max isn’t crashing he is probably driving the car on the limit and blowing it up. He could probably benefit from being neutered in a way. Relax him a little.

Itssoeasy

You know what track I would love to see back on the F1 Calender more than any other ? Imola . It has a rating to hold F1 races and is the real Ferrari home track even though monza is a brilliant track and the race this year was unbelievable, I think F1 one needs imola back on the racing schedule. I know there was a possibility it was coming back in 2017 which didn't happen.

I realise this is just my hope and a business like F1 doesn't operate on fans and their hopes and yes the track is the site of one of the darkest weekend in the sports history but I just think instead of some of these painfully boring circuits which all look the same imola while not the same as even when it was last one the calendar in 2007, it brings more than some circuits do.

Stallingrad

Albon reminds me of Button, quick, smooth, stays out of trouble. And he's not up his own arse like most of them.

Inquitus

Albon is doing way better than Gasly, he qualified with the same time as Max at Suzuka despite never having raced there, he's been reliable. At the weekend they screwed his chances of a better finish with terrible strategy. Also the Red Bull seems a lot less competitive v Merc and Ferrari since the summer break, Mexico's foibles aside.

mickdw

Stallingrad wrote: »

Albon reminds me of Button, quick, smooth, stays out of trouble. And he's not up his own arse like most of them.

......and beats his team mate yet doesn't get the recognition.

recyclebin

Verstappen has been awful the last few races. He just can't keep out of trouble. I'm surprised it hasn't got that much coverage. Albon has been steady but he is only the best of the rest. He hasn't really challenged a Merc or Ferrari yet.

shamrock55

Does anyone think if danny ric was in a merc/Ferrari that he would be a world champion and what is his contract with renault and will they even be here in the nxt couple of years

BDI

shamrock55 wrote: »

Does anyone think if danny ric was in a merc/Ferrari that he would be a world champion and what is his contract with renault and will they even be here in the nxt couple of years

Feel sorry for a few drivers that deserved more. Danny Ric, Perez, few over the years I think didn’t reach their full potential just out of not getting a drive they deserved.

AMKC

shamrock55 wrote: »

Does anyone think if danny ric was in a merc/Ferrari that he would be a world champion and what is his contract with renault and will they even be here in the nxt couple of years

He most certainly would be. I think his contract with Renault is for 3 years. They will be there next year and then hopefully the year after too but who knows after that? Maybe another Genii capital type investment company will take it over again if Renault do pull out again or maybe even Liberty Media sure they seem to be into everything else why not an F1 team but that might go against some rules so maybe it will never happen.

El_Duderino 09

shamrock55 wrote: »

Does anyone think if danny ric was in a merc/Ferrari that he would be a world champion and what is his contract with renault and will they even be here in the nxt couple of years

His stock has fallen this year. The car is probably pretty bad though. He’s about level with Hulkenberg which isn’t a sign of a top driver (38-35). I think being about equal with Hulkenberg means he’s currently in the ‘grand’ category. But nothing special and would be look at as a no.2 rather than a rattle challenger.

He’s on multiples of Hulkenberg’s salary so hulk is by far the better value for money driver between them this season.

weisses

BDI wrote: »

Feel sorry for a few drivers that deserved more. Danny Ric, Perez, few over the years I think didn’t reach their full potential just out of not getting a drive they deserved.

If Ric wanted to possibly reach his full potential he should have stayed with RB instead of going for the cash at Renault

So you don't need to feel sorry for the fella

Cork Trucker

https://www.planetf1.com/news/hulkenberg-to-red-bull-rumours-persist/

Red Bull may have denied that Nico Hulkenberg has a shot at the 2020 race seat but the rumours are refusing to die down.

F1 journalist Jack Plooij told Radio Veronica: “Voices that say Nico Hulkenberg will be the new team-mate for Verstappen next year are a growing.

BDI

weisses wrote: »

If Ric wanted to possibly reach his full potential he should have stayed with RB instead of going for the cash at Renault

So you don't need to feel sorry for the fella

He would have been second fiddle to Max who at the time looked like Red Bull would do everything in their power to win him races. Didn’t work out for Max so far but Ricciardo wasn’t to know. Even now Max gets all the coverage albon is treated like an also ran.

El_Duderino 09

BDI wrote: »

He would have been second fiddle to Max who at the time looked like Red Bull would do everything in their power to win him races. Didn’t work out for Max so far but Ricciardo wasn’t to know. Even now Max gets all the coverage albon is treated like an also ran.

I disagree that it didn’t work out for Max. Suggestions are that the car is built around max which means Ric would likely struggle compared to him and would look a lot slower as a result.

weisses

BDI wrote: »

He would have been second fiddle to Max who at the time looked like Red Bull would do everything in their power to win him races. Didn’t work out for Max so far but Ricciardo wasn’t to know. Even now Max gets all the coverage albon is treated like an also ran.

If you are a driver who runs away from a fight with your teammate then you are not world champion material .. period... he went for the cash at Renault, Red Bull is very much capable of getting 2 equally fast cars on the grid ... let's not forget that they want the constructor championship just as much as a driver championship. Albon is not the driver RB needs... to this date he adds nothing that pushes the team forward ...

uchimata83

weisses wrote: »

If you are a driver who runs away from a fight with your teammate then you are not world champion material .. period... he went for the cash at Renault, Red Bull is very much capable of getting 2 equally fast cars on the grid ... let's not forget that they want the constructor championship just as much as a driver championship. Albon is not the driver RB needs... to this date he adds nothing that pushes the team forward ...

I don't think he ran away from Red Bull, he knew that the team were going to focus on Max and Red Bull's image is always going to be focused towards youth as much as success. That Renault is a dog and I wouldn't trust Cyril to run to the shop for me.

Definitely agree with you on Albon. He is doing well in comparison to Gasly, but that wouldn't be too hard. Drove well on Sunday managing tyres but doing nothing of note other than selling cans in Singapore.

El_Duderino 09

weisses wrote: »

If you are a driver who runs away from a fight with your teammate then you are not world champion material .. period... he went for the cash at Renault, Red Bull is very much capable of getting 2 equally fast cars on the grid ... let's not forget that they want the constructor championship just as much as a driver championship. Albon is not the driver RB needs... to this date he adds nothing that pushes the team forward ...

It’s not true to say he ran away. Red bull made clear they were backing Max politically. That means he gets the best stuff, mechanics and more say over development, pit strategy preference etc. That’s not an equal setup. So if anyone were to be world champion at red bull, it would most likely be max.

His next best bet was to go to a constructor. Merc and Ferrari were full, so Renault was the best option. It wasn’t just for the money. It was s as do for the most realistic chance of winning - even though it was also a long shot.

skipper_G

weisses wrote: »

If you are a driver who runs away from a fight with your teammate then you are not world champion material .. period... he went for the cash at Renault, Red Bull is very much capable of getting 2 equally fast cars on the grid ... let's not forget that they want the constructor championship just as much as a driver championship. Albon is not the driver RB needs... to this date he adds nothing that pushes the team forward ...

Albon has finished in the top 6 every race for Red Bull, he's still in his rookie season. The facts suggest that he is comfortable at that level, and with time comes experience. He will likely get better. I can’t take any of what you say seriously

weisses

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s not true to say he ran away. Red bull made clear they were backing Max politically. That means he gets the best stuff, mechanics and more say over development, pit strategy preference etc. That’s not an equal setup. So if anyone were to be world champion at red bull, it would most likely be max.

His next best bet was to go to a constructor. Merc and Ferrari were full, so Renault was the best option. It wasn’t just for the money. It was s as do for the most realistic chance of winning - even though it was also a long shot.

Can you come up with something that clearly shows Verrstappen being favored ?

Remember Ric got pole last year in Mexico, to me that looks like he was getting the same material as Max

weisses

skipper_G wrote: »

Albon has finished in the top 6 every race for Red Bull, he's still in his rookie season. The facts suggest that he is comfortable at that level, and with time comes experience. He will likely get better. I can’t take any of what you say seriously

He is better then Gasly for sure, But in my opinion he is not the driver who will push red bull forward ...

every driver on that grid could have steered the red bull to a P6 in any GP

weisses

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It’s not true to say he ran away. Red bull made clear they were backing Max politically. That means he gets the best stuff, mechanics and more say over development, pit strategy preference etc. That’s not an equal setup. So if anyone were to be world champion at red bull, it would most likely be max.

His next best bet was to go to a constructor. Merc and Ferrari were full, so Renault was the best option. It wasn’t just for the money. It was s as do for the most realistic chance of winning - even though it was also a long shot.

Most of his DNF's were because of Renault ... I have to hand it to Renault though ..their PR worked well on Ric

And again can you at least post some evidence that Verstappen would have gotten the better material etc this season ? ... Because to me that makes no sense for a team that wants to be a constructors champion and has the money and resources to put to equally good cars on the grid

muckwarrior

weisses wrote: »

He is better then Gasly for sure, But in my opinion he is not the driver who will push red bull forward ...

every driver on that grid could have steered the red bull to a P6 in any GP

Gasly couldn't.

Anyway, Albon doesn't need to be the driver to push Red Bull forward. Verstappen is clearly number 1, Albon just needs to be a solid number 2 and so far he's doing a fairly decent job of that.

weisses

muckwarrior wrote: »

Gasly couldn't.

Anyway, Albon doesn't need to be the driver to push Red Bull forward. Verstappen is clearly number 1, Albon just needs to be a solid number 2 and so far he's doing a fairly decent job of that.

Problem is that to compete on the level RB, Ferrari and Merc are acting you need two top drivers ... So yes the driver next to Verstappen needs to be able to out qualify him and is able to push the team or at least his side of the garage forward ... If you think Albon doesn't need to do that he shouldn't be driving for RB. During Ric last year both drivers pushed each other and used each others data/setup to get faster ....

chicorytip

muckwarrior wrote: »

Gasly couldn't.

Anyway, Albon doesn't need to be the driver to push Red Bull forward. Verstappen is clearly number 1, Albon just needs to be a solid number 2 and so far he's doing a fairly decent job of that.

If Max qualifies in pole position then Red Bull expect their other driver to qualify in second position one tenth of a second behind. If Albon is unable get that close enough to Max over the remaining races of the season I think he will get the chop. The team's young driver programme is not producing the goods at present. Kyvat, Gasly, Albon, Ticktum. The problem they have is that there are no experienced drivers available who could do the job. Hulkenberg is really not good enough. Kubica would be a better option than him, strange as it sounds. Alonso looks like he's finished in F1 for good.

El_Duderino 09

weisses wrote: »

Can you come up with something that clearly shows Verrstappen being favored ?

Remember Ric got pole last year in Mexico, to me that looks like he was getting the same material as Max

A pole position at an individual race proves nothing. The point was that Ric wanted assurance that he would be given equal opportunity at RB and they didn’t give it. There are all sorts of issues behind the scenes. The political wrangling in the background is important. Max had the upper hand and it was clear to Ric that Max was their man for the short to medium term future.

One of the early signs would have been who's input they were taking more seriously for developing the next years car (the current car).

The chances of a red bull winning a championship in the next 3 years is far higher than a Renault. But Ric decided he would have to do it against Max who would have superior support from the team.

I don’t have any concrete evidence because I’m not involved. In only have what Ric said and the analysis of people like Joe Saward.

H3llR4iser

chicorytip wrote: »

If Max qualifies in pole position then Red Bull expect their other driver to qualify in second position one tenth of a second behind. If Albon is unable get that close enough to Max over the remaining races of the season I think he will get the chop. The team's young driver programme is not producing the goods at present. Kyvat, Gasly, Albon, Ticktum. The problem they have is that there are no experienced drivers available who could do the job. Hulkenberg is really not good enough. Kubica would be a better option than him, strange as it sounds. Alonso looks like he's finished in F1 for good.

Nope, they don't; They want the other driver to be out of Max's way and bring in some points. If he is second, close to Max, it's an issue; Daniel Ricciardo, as such, was an issue - especially as he often was ahead of Verstappen. Gasly was underperforming for, well, reasons, but the team themselves were actually reluctant to oust him. By all accounts, bringing Albon in was Helmut Marko's decision alone, no doubt based off the marketing potential in Thailand. What Alex is doing right now, it's what the company wants - be top 6 all the time, without coming near Verstappen.

The fact is, Red Bull are not a manufacturer nor a typical F1 team, they are much more interested to the younger part of the audience than any other outfit on the grid. They don't sell cars or industrial machinery, their name and image drives worldwide sales of a product that is mostly marketed to sub-30-years old people. And that generates massive amounts of revenue.

Max Verstappen is, right now, F1's wonderkid and the centre of attention of the younger spectators. He's young, talented, arrogant, smug, boastful with that aura of the "chosen one" built around him. He's the closest thing in F1 to an action movie hero or a videogame character. It's what 21st century kids all around the world adore, which makes him a money-maker in terms of marketing. Look at the grandstands at most F1 venues full of the "orange army" made up of people, a lot of them quite young, who mostly didn't even know what F1 was until 2016's Spanish Grand Prix.

Ricciardo was in the way of all that - you can't have a random, nearly 30 years old smiley dude from Australia, who's nice and charming but nothing like what kids want to be, beating your "choosen one", can you?

But don't take my words for this, there's Horner's interview in Netflix's documentary, where he goes without a single doubt about the fact that the team's goal is to make Max Verstappen the youngest F1 WDC of all times. They got 1 more season to achieve it - and a problem in the fact they don't have the "next wunderkid" lined up yet.

weisses

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A pole position at an individual race proves nothing. The point was that Ric wanted assurance that he would be given equal opportunity at RB and they didn’t give it. There are all sorts of issues behind the scenes. The political wrangling in the background is important. Max had the upper hand and it was clear to Ric that Max was their man for the short to medium term future.

It proves he gets equal opportunities and material ... Its not wrong for a team to say that they work with Max to make him world champion .. Ric was looking for a way out ... He didnt want to compete with max so he choose for the big bucks at Renault ... If Ric focus was to be a world champion he would have stayed at RB

Ill emphasize again ...RB can put out to equally competitive cars .. they want to be the best constructor as well

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

One of the early signs would have been who's input they were taking more seriously for developing the next years car (the current car).

So what ? If Ricciardo can potentially win races

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The chances of a red bull winning a championship in the next 3 years is far higher than a Renault. But Ric decided he would have to do it against Max who would have superior support from the team.

I don’t have any concrete evidence because I’m not involved. In only have what Ric said and the analysis of people like Joe Saward.

Ric choose the money and to be the n1 at Renault ... for what its worth

And again ... there is no evidence Max would get superior support over Ric ... Because it doesnt make any sense for a team as big as RB

Dont know what is bigger .. the mans ego or his bank account ( I still like him though)