Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Give him a test in a Mercedes like Russell got, then we’ll know for sure what the gap is

I'll arrange it straight away.

But seriously, he gets a test against Russell in a Williams every single race weekend. In a car that they're both familiar with. How would you describe the results for that test so far this season? Serious question.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

The Williams of today is the Minardi of their time. i strongly believe that you could put both Vettel and Hamilton into their cars and they couldn't get anymore from them. If Kubica is on the 2020 grid it won't be with Williams.

If he can pay for his drive with another team, the he might get another drive. He'll get nothing more on merit, unfortunately.

Given the gap between him and Russell, how can you say nobody would get any more out of the car? Russell gets an average of over 0.4 seconds in every qualifying so far this year and wipes the floor with him in the race in all but 2 races this year.

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'll arrange it straight away.

But seriously, he gets a test against Russell in a Williams every single race weekend. In a car that they're both familiar with. How would you describe the results for that test so far this season? Serious question.

Results are below what i was expecting, i was hopeful of him doing better than he has to date, looking at FP3 it appears there is over 6 tenths of a second gap and Stroll/Albon between Russell and Kubica. I'm inclined to say that while GR does clearly have the upper hand regardless, the 2 cars are different in some aspects. I expect Williams to drop him for 2020.

I revise the above, Stroll is at the back in FP3 with Kubica in a car that is better than the Williams,Russell in 18th, Stroll is just crap, Kubica is better than him without doubt, hence why Daddy Stroll wanted him at not force india as a test driver this year.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Results are below what i was expecting, i was hopeful of him doing better than he has to date, looking at FP3 it appears there is over 6 tenths of a second gap and Stroll/Albon between Russell and Kubica. I'm inclined to say that while GR does clearly have the upper hand regardless, the 2 cars are different in some aspects. I expect Williams to drop him for 2020.

Russell clearly has the upper hand, as you say. So why would we bother to keep looking to kubica? We don't even know if Russell is a top driver because we don't have enough data on him. He could be a decent middle of the road driver and still kubica is much slower than him.

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Russell clearly has the upper hand, as you say. So why would we bother to keep looking to kubica? We don't even know if Russell is a top driver because we don't have enough data on him. He could be a decent middle of the road driver and still kubica is much slower than him.

All we can tell for certain is from Bahrain where he drove both the Mercedes and Williams. He was 2 seconds quicker in the Merc than in the Williams. I don't see him as future champion material but maybe along the lines of another David Coulthard in the long run.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

All we can tell for certain is from Bahrain where he drove both the Mercedes and Williams. He was 2 seconds quicker in the Merc than in the Williams. I don't see him as future champion material but maybe along the lines of another David Coulthard in the long run.

So while you don't think he's top tier, he's still way faster than kubica. So what does that tell you about kubica?

weisses

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So while you don't think he's top tier, he's still way faster than kubica. So what does that tell you about kubica?

Kubica is the only one who scored points for them (pending the Alfa appeal) :pac:

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So while you don't think he's top tier, he's still way faster than kubica. So what does that tell you about kubica?

weisses wrote: »

Kubica is the only one who scored points for them (pending the Alfa appeal) :pac:

On paper Kubica is the better driver :pac::pac::pac:

Faugheen

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It is lalala stuff. But I'm sure both you and I would be delighted if kubica was nailing it and pushing for a more competitive drive next year.

Truth is he's not a good driver now. All the good will and wishful thinking in the world makes no difference to that. Likewise his, now legendary, potential to be multiple world champion, is being called into question. The reality just doesn't stack up.

It's interesting to see how much wishful thinking can interfere with people's assessment of a driver. The notion that he could be in contention for the e Mercedes drive is absolute fantasy stuff.

I agree. I wish he could be better than he is, and the sheer fact he's even driving an F1 car is admirable.

However, he's not even in the same league as Russell, never mind Bottas.

Cork Trucker

Faugheen wrote: »

I agree. I wish he could be better than he is, and the sheer fact he's even driving an F1 car is admirable.

However, he's not even in the same league as Russell, never mind Bottas.

Were the results of the 2017 Renault test ever made public? i know there were still questions that weren't answered for them but the lap times/fuel load etc. If i remember correctly he set his fastest time on a set of tyres not used in the actually race a few days previous.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

On paper Kubica is the better driver :pac::pac::pac:

Kubica should advocate for them to start driving on paper if that’s the case. Cos he ain’t faster on tarmac.

Based on what? And do this year’s results factor in at all?

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Kubica should advocate for them to start driving on paper if that’s the case. Cos he ain’t faster on tarmac.

Based on what? And do this year’s results factor in at all?

Based on why they opted to go for Sainz to replace Palmer rather than him, there must be something that Renault seen that Williams either didn't or overlooked for monetary reasons. In a car as bad as the Williams it's difficult to take the results at face value

Faugheen

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Based on why they opted to go for Sainz to replace Palmer rather than him, there must be something that Renault seen that Williams either didn't or overlooked for monetary reasons. In a car as bad as the Williams it's difficult to take the results at face value

Well they're in the same machinery so the fact he's been walloped by his rookie team-mate (freak result at Hockenheim aside) it makes it very easy to take the results at face value.

Cork Trucker

Faugheen wrote: »

Well they're in the same machinery so the fact he's been walloped by his rookie team-mate (freak result at Hockenheim aside) it makes it very easy to take the results at face value.

Stuff has circulated that the cars are different, Kubica being the one disadvantaged, there was something about the front suspension in recent times. I know the chassis was switched in Spain i think?

skipper_G

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Stuff has circulated that the cars are different, Kubica being the one disadvantaged, there was something about the front suspension in recent times. I know the chassis was switched in Spain i think?

That’s hearsay and rumours likely started by fans clutching at every conceivable straw to explain the performance differential. Debunked by the team

https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/11/absolutely-no-difference-between-kubica-and-russells-cars-williams/

Cork Trucker

skipper_G wrote: »

That’s hearsay and rumours likely started by fans clutching at every conceivable straw to explain the performance differential. Debunked by the team

https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/11/absolutely-no-difference-between-kubica-and-russells-cars-williams/

Of course it was debunked who in their right mind would admit to it even if true.

skipper_G

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Of course it was debunked who in their right mind would admit to it even if true.

I find it easier to believe that a professional race team are capable of producing two identical cars. However bad the cars are, they're equally bad. The difference is down to the drivers

Faugheen

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Stuff has circulated that the cars are different, Kubica being the one disadvantaged, there was something about the front suspension in recent times. I know the chassis was switched in Spain i think?

It's bollocks though, and a prime example of people being in complete denial.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Based on why they opted to go for Sainz to replace Palmer rather than him, there must be something that Renault seen that Williams either didn't or overlooked for monetary reasons. In a car as bad as the Williams it's difficult to take the results at face value

Would you agree that they went for Sainz because he clearly the faster driver ? In reality of not on paper.

Russell and Kubica are in the same car. Do you think it’s coincidence that he’s so comprehensively beaten by Russell? Do you think if they were both in the Mercedes, Kubica would start matching or beating Russell?

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Stuff has circulated that the cars are different, Kubica being the one disadvantaged, there was something about the front suspension in recent times. I know the chassis was switched in Spain i think?

Yeah Kubica claimed his chassis was broken somehow. So they actually switched chassis and the results was exactly the same. But still the hope that Kubica is actually still fast, lives on dispite the evidence.

I admire people’s dedication to denying the obvious. But he’s not your boyfriend or your brother. You don’t have to defend him no matter how clear the evidence

I mean, being serious, you’ve suggested that in spite of being comprehensive beaten by his rookie teammate week in, week out, we would need to see them in a one off test in a different at to know for sure if he’s actually slower than Russell.

At some point we’ll have to get back to reality and start looking to the facts rather than fantasy.

meeeeh

Comebacks after few years are hard even for healthy top drivers (unless anyone believes Rosberg was a better driver than Schumacher). I think there was a bit more fuss around Kubica even when he was racing first time but he is fairly poor this time. I was hoping he will do well but it's nit working out.

Faugheen

1.3 seconds to Russell this time, when the car looks more competitive too.

What's the excuse this time?

Dont be at yourself

Kubica's lack of pace wasn't a worry so long as Russell was P19, but if he's regularly challenging for Q2, it's got to put Kubica under pressure.

El_Duderino 09

Faugheen wrote: »

1.3 seconds to Russell this time, when the car looks more competitive too.

What's the excuse this time?

Needs a go in the Mercedes?
Can’t compare because the car isn’t good enough?
He has a disability and he’s better on paper (without the disability obviously).

Great performance from Russell though.

I’d love if Williams actually catch up to the mid field

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Needs a go in the Mercedes?
Can’t compare because the car isn’t good enough?
He has a disability and he’s better on paper (without the disability obviously).

Great performance from Russell though.

I’d love if Williams actually catch up to the mid field

The only comparison i can make for a similar legitimate gap is Monaco 1988 when Senna was 1.5 seconds faster than Prost unless Alonso did it in the 2001 Minardi?

Russell looks like starting P15 tomorrow as i expect Giovinazzi will be penalised for blocking Stroll

pjohnson

Faugheen wrote: »

1.3 seconds to Russell this time, when the car looks more competitive too.

What's the excuse this time?

Extremely controversial but maybe just maybe it means that Russell is actually a very good driver?

People are that busy fetishising Kubica being the worst driver ever that they cant seem to realise Russell is actually good. Minds will be blown next year :pac:


I wonder were Alonso and Webber recognised for their own achievements back in their Minardi's or just constantly compared to their teammates.

Cork Trucker

pjohnson wrote: »

Extremely controversial but maybe just maybe it means that Russell is actually a very good driver?

People are that busy fetishising Kubica being the worst driver ever that they cant seem to realise Russell is actually good. Minds will be blown next year :pac:


I wonder were Alonso and Webber recognised for their own achievements back in their Minardi's or just constantly compared to their teammates.

2 things i clearly remember about Webber in the Minardi, they both happened on his debut at his home race in 2002, passing Coulthard's (somewhat sick) Mclaren and the way Salo reeled him in during Toyota's first F1 race but spun, P5 then was like a race victory especially when they were such a small team and it was the final season that offered points down to 6th place. Alonso was in a different league to his Minardi teammates, anyone remember the 2001 Japanese gp? 53 laps of qualifying he did in that car.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Extremely controversial but maybe just maybe it means that Russell is actually a very good driver?

People are that busy fetishising Kubica being the worst driver ever that they cant seem to realise Russell is actually good. Minds will be blown next year :pac:


I wonder were Alonso and Webber recognised for their own achievements back in their Minardi's or just constantly compared to their teammates.

Russell might be a great driver but we don’t know yet because we don’t have enough info. The only driver he competes with is Kubica. We don’t have to decide he’s brilliant right now. We can wait until we actually see how he performs over time and against a broad range of drivers.

Declaring him brilliant seems like another desperate attempt to make Kubica look good by saying he’s being outperformed by a great driver.

Webber and Alonso were given great credit for outperforming their teammate in minardi. They both scored points early on so that gave them additional credibility. But it’s fine to only give them credit for what they had achieved at that time. What’s the alternator? Give them credit for things they hadn’t achieved yet?

Cork Trucker

Time for the F1 lads to brush up on their skills, this is just sickening :eek:

https://twitter.com/MotoGP/status/1157594538476736514

chicorytip

Dont be at yourself wrote:

Kubica's lack of pace wasn't a worry so long as Russell was P19, but if he's regularly challenging for Q2, it's got to put Kubica under pressure.

The Q1 result for Russell yesterday was an aberration because of the abortive final runs of both Magnussen and Ricciardo. Under normal circumstances both are half a second quicker. P 19 again for George today, I expect. He has the look of a top driver alright with the potential to be better than his peers Leclerc, Norris and Albon but not in the same league as Verstappen.