John Waters gone mad

CrankyHaus

Waters was actually ahead of the curve, in a way. He was a bit of a forerunner of those alt-right types.

Back during the late 80s culture wars he copped that there was an audience of mainly rural traditionalists that the national media ignored. He built his success on pandering to that audience while sucking up to FF big beasts. In exchange he has a house in Dalkey and sits on a few public sector boards, including some sinecure at RTE. Having read his books and articles I'd say this success is punching above his weight.

Really he's anything but a rebel. However the Irish media is such an echo chamber it managed to make him one.

SafeSurfer

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Waters was actually ahead of the curve, in a way. He was a bit of a forerunner of those alt-right types.

Back during the late 80s culture wars he copped that there was an audience of mainly rural traditionalists that the national media ignored. He built his success on pandering to that audience while sucking up to FF big beasts. In exchange he has a house in Dalkey and sits on a few public sector boards, including some sinecure at RTE. Having read his books and articles I'd say this success is punching above his weight.

Really he's anything but a rebel. However the Irish media is such an echo chamber it managed to make him one.

The traditionalists in the 1980s were not merely a rural phenomenon and were certainly not ignored by the mainstream media. It was pretty much the complete opposite of the position today where the traditionalist/conservative view is rarely articulated by mainstream journalists who face a backlash for expressing any view questioning the rush to progressiveness.

The media darling Panti Bliss, who RTE gave a 90 minute self promotion vehicle to in the wake of the marriage referendum called Waters homophobic on RTE for expressing reservations about the marriage equality referendum.

Waters was pilloried and vilified by those who champion the importance of diversity but cannot countenance any diversity in opinion.

I disagree with much of what he says, I find him difficult to like but I don’t think he can be accused of pandering. He could have towed the line and expressed the majority opinion and be a media grandee a la Saint Vincent O Toole but he has been ostracized precisely because he didn’t pander.

evolving_doors

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whos john waters? couldnt be arsed googling

http://bfy.tw/Kv6b

AndrewJRenko

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The traditionalists in the 1980s were not merely a rural phenomenon and were certainly not ignored by the mainstream media. It was pretty much the complete opposite of the position today where the traditionalist/conservative view is rarely articulated by mainstream journalists who face a backlash for expressing any view questioning the rush to progressiveness.

The media darling Panti Bliss, who RTE gave a 90 minute self promotion vehicle to in the wake of the marriage referendum called Waters homophobic on RTE for expressing reservations about the marriage equality referendum.

Here's what Rory actually said about Waters, which doesn't quite fit your description;


From https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/columnist-john-waters-in-a-panti-twist-over-anti-gay-claims

Asked about changing attitudes toward the LGBT community in Ireland O'Neill has said: 'The only place that you see it’s okay to be really horrible and mean about gays is you know on the internet in the comments and you know people who make a living writing opinion pieces for newspapers. You know there’s a couple of them that really cheese...'
Host O'Connor asked O'Neill to name the people he was talking about and O'Neill replied:
'Oh well the obvious ones. You know Breda O’Brien (the Irish Times Columnist) today, oh my God you know banging on about gay priests and all. The usual suspects, the John Waters (Well known Irish journalist) and all of those people, the Iona Institute (a conservative Catholic lobby group) crowd. I mean I just…you know just… Fe-k off! Get the hell out of my life. Get out of my life…'

SafeSurfer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The traditionalists in the 1980s were not merely a rural phenomenon and were certainly not ignored by the mainstream media. It was pretty much the complete opposite of the position today where the traditionalist/conservative view is rarely articulated by mainstream journalists who face a backlash for expressing any view questioning the rush to progressiveness.

The media darling Panti Bliss, who RTE gave a 90 minute self promotion vehicle to in the wake of the marriage referendum called Waters homophobic on RTE for expressing reservations about the marriage equality referendum.

Here's what Rory actually said about Waters, which doesn't quite fit your description;


From https://www.irishcentral.com/opinion/cahirodoherty/columnist-john-waters-in-a-panti-twist-over-anti-gay-claims

Asked about changing attitudes toward the LGBT community in Ireland O'Neill has said: 'The only place that you see it’s okay to be really horrible and mean about gays is you know on the internet in the comments and you know people who make a living writing opinion pieces for newspapers. You know there’s a couple of them that really cheese...'
Host O'Connor asked O'Neill to name the people he was talking about and O'Neill replied:
'Oh well the obvious ones. You know Breda O’Brien (the Irish Times Columnist) today, oh my God you know banging on about gay priests and all. The usual suspects, the John Waters (Well known Irish journalist) and all of those people, the Iona Institute (a conservative Catholic lobby group) crowd. I mean I just…you know just… Fe-k off! Get the hell out of my life. Get out of my life…'

You have linked to an Irish central article which is basically a Panti Bliss monologue.

Comments made by O Neill on the cutting edge branded a number of journalists including Waters homophobic and were cut from the subsequent broadcasts of the programme.

All journalists including Waters were awarded damages by RTE for defamation following legal action.

gordongekko

Bloody hell i thought it was Jonathan Walters when i saw the title. I wouldn't have bothered clicking on the link if i knew it was that flute you were talking about

AndrewJRenko

SafeSurfer wrote: »

You have linked to an Irish central article which is basically a Panti Bliss monologue.

Comments made by O Neill on the cutting edge branded a number of journalists including Waters homophobic and were cut from the subsequent broadcasts of the programme.

All journalists including Waters were awarded damages by RTE for defamation following legal action.

I've quoted an article which quotes what was said on the Brendan O'Connor show, word for word. It was the Saturday night show, not Cutting Edge.

That's exactly what Panti said, with a bit of prompting by Brendan.

Church on Tuesday

I blame his Eurovision sojourn.

Elemonator

Silentcorner wrote: »

Can anyone give me the gist...I refuse to pay for IT content?

Just wipe your browser history, should clear up that block no problem.

The Crowman

He got Sinead O Connor up the spout back in the day.

The Crowman

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

He is many things but I thing he is less hypocritical than a certain high profile environmental journalist who regularly condemns meat eaters and commuters while driving a 3 litre 15 mile per gallon petrol Mercedes.

Capt'n Midnight

He promised to leave the country if Yes won.

Despite all his protests about marriage laws he wasn't married to Sinea, or even in a long term relationship.

He wasn't actively loading when parked illegally and rather than accept a fine went to court.

I'm not aware of any redeeming characteristics, though some consider him the enemy of their enemy.

AndrewJRenko

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

The irony of complaining about the white, middle-class media ostracising Waters may have gone over your head. In case you didn't notice, he is just that - white- middle-class.


He had years of media coverage for his various whinges about fathers rights and rural Ireland and more, including a regular column in Ireland's newspaper of record for a couple of decades. The fact that Ireland has matured past his narrow and bigoted views is not some form of censorship. It's just that most people don't want to listen to his crap anymore.

P_1

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

He is many things but I thing he is less hypocritical than a certain high profile environmental journalist who regularly condemns meat eaters and commuters while driving a 3 litre 15 mile per gallon petrol Mercedes.

Indeed. Sure look at how people were pushed to the margins of the repeal the 8th campaign of they weren't white, middle class and cishet

SafeSurfer

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Except he doesn’t have nice middle class opinions anymore so clearly he must be insane.

The orchestrated campaign against him by his former colleagues and other liberal commentators was driven by this former insider cracking the edifice of liberal media homogeneity.
An example is Patsy Mc Garry, a former neighbour and presumed friend seeking help from Waters on behalf of his nephew who was suicidal while simultaneously and anonymously making vile criticisms of Waters and how uncaring he was etc.

Waters has some very out ther views but so have many journalists whose sanity is never questioned.

This. Well said. And refreshing given the attacks on Waters here. Patsy McGarry was exposed there as a backstabbing, sly and classless individual. Had McGarry been more technologically literate his lie wouldn't have been exposed. McGarry is obviously well in with The Irish Times if they haven't taken any disciplinary action against him on ethical grounds. That incident really deserves more publicity.

As for the rest of you, it shouldn't be too difficult to find a harder target than John Waters. Aside from Waters famous Hot Press interview with Haughey in the early 1980s, he has been on the margins of medialand for a long time. I vividly recall him as an almost isolated voice - Declan Kiberd & Vincent Browne being the other two - in the early 1990s questioning Tony O'Reilly's control of the Irish media. That took real courage. He also wrote some memorably thoughtful articles which introduced me to the work on colonialism of Franz Fanon at a time when for explicitly political reasons the entire Dublin media/Independent Newspapers would never mention Irish history in a colonial context.

Yes, the man has definitely moved to the right in the past 17 years (since 9/11) and has said things and made public scenes that would be better not said or done. But none of us know the twists and turns of life that can befall us in the future so perhaps a bit of kindness in treating this man now might spread and if anything happens us or a loved one in the future they will not be sneered at or derided for it. As so often in After Hours, silence has a dignity.

Gimme A Pound

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

He is many things but I thing he is less hypocritical than a certain high profile environmental journalist who regularly condemns meat eaters and commuters while driving a 3 litre 15 mile per gallon petrol Mercedes.

I admire his battle for fathers' rights but his controversy for the sake of it schtick damages his credibility. E.g. saying depression is "bullsh1t".

As said also, he is middle-class too, so I don't know what that's about. I know the crowd you refer to though, but being mostly white is something they're mortified over.

I see why people take issue with the Iona Institute too - it's entitled to its views but the manner it puts those views across can be odious.

SafeSurfer

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Irish journalists are an almost completely homogeneous group. White, middle clas, with nice white middle class opinions.

This media has collaborated with the political class in this country, withholding information from the general public which could have changed the results of elections.

They do not perform the role of a proper fourth estate by holding the political class to account.

Anyone who fails to conform to the narrative is ostracized and labeled mad, extreme or dangerous.

Waters spent years trying to highlight the cause of fathers rights. But because the cause didn’t fit the narrow liberal agenda of opposition to anything that could be considered patriarchal he was condemned by the very colleagues who championed other social injustices.

The irony of complaining about the white, middle-class media ostracising Waters may have gone over your head. In case you didn't notice, he is just that - white- middle-class.


He had years of media coverage for his various whinges about fathers rights and rural Ireland and more, including a regular column in Ireland's newspaper of record for a couple of decades. The fact that Ireland has matured past his narrow and bigoted views is not some form of censorship. It's just that most people don't want to listen to his crap anymore.

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

spacetweek

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

It's more likely that that's just because of the general erosion of newspaper readership worldwide due to the internet.

The IT still remains the paper of record and is the only one left with deep dive journalism.

SafeSurfer

spacetweek wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

It's more likely that that's just because of the general erosion of newspaper readership worldwide due to the internet.

The IT still remains the paper of record and is the only one left with deep dive journalism.

If by deep dive journalism you mean one has to hold one’s nose then I would have to agree.
One must remember that the Irish Times has long been a bastion of exclusion, only permitting its first catholic editor in 1986.

s7ryf3925pivug

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

Fintan O'Toole has a new book on the mentality of Brexit voters. I read an extract of it in The Guardian. Compellung stuff, and I think he nailed it. They're all deranged really. Not his words but that's what it amounts to... I'm a bit fascinated by the new nationalist attitudes because I feel like I don't get them.

s7ryf3925pivug

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

Middle class people are not the elite.

paw patrol

Kingsley Unsightly Inch wrote: »

Fintan O'Toole has a new book on the mentality of Brexit voters. I read an extract of it in The Guardian. Compellung stuff, and I think he nailed it. They're all deranged really. Not his words but that's what it amounts to... I'm a bit fascinated by the new nationalist attitudes because I feel like I don't get them.

fintan o'toole is deranged so perhaps he is best placed to recognise it.

Fintan O'Toole hates Ireland , any sense of national price or our cultural.
Always stating how sh1t we as a nation are, while he pontificates and berates us from his moral high ground.

SafeSurfer

spacetweek wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years. Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

It's more likely that that's just because of the general erosion of newspaper readership worldwide due to the internet.The IT still remains the paper of record and is the only one left with deep dive journalism.

If by deep dive journalism you mean one has to hold one’s nose then I would have to agree. One must remember that the Irish Times has long been a bastion of exclusion, only permitting its first catholic editor in 1986.

Kingsley Unsightly Inch wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

Middle class people are not the elite.

One doesn’t have to be wealthy to be a member of the elite.
The ability to be opinion influencers and informers, the power to set the agenda and hold politicians to account absolutely makes journalists members of the elite.
Take a look at the book The Media Elite from nearly 40 years ago and things have scarcely changed.

“The survey revealed a group of individuals at once remarkably similar to one another in background, status, and beliefs and strikingly different from the general public. In 1980, this "media elite" was predominantly white (95 percent), male (79 percent), college-educated (93 percent), and well paid. Four out of five had been raised in relatively affluent business or professional families.”

Aidric

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

"Driven by angelic recall, they plod on clay feet into the mire of three-dimensional reality. They do not know, are not conscious, that their appetites are infinitely greater than the world's capacity to satisfy them."

Angelic recall? fúck me that's some creative liberty right there. John sounds like he watched the matrix trilogy too many times while necking the hot whiskeys.

ToddyDoody

Just taking a look at the Wikipedia page. One bit that stands out:

"Electric Picnic 2010
Waters attended the Electric Picnic music festival in 2010 and wrote that he felt a sense of dissatisfaction with the event, concluding that there was a lack of meaning underpinning events at the festival.[27] Sunday Tribune journalist Una Mullally replied that if John Waters felt disconnected or out of place at the Electric Picnic, that it was because the country had changed, and continued "perhaps this is the first Irish generation who have purposely opted out of tormenting themselves by searching for some unattainable greater meaning and who have chosen instead just to live".

Probably biting off more than you can chew here.

Wheety

Elemonator wrote: »

Just wipe your browser history, should clear up that block no problem.

Or just right click on link and open in incognito window.

Elemonator

Wheety wrote: »

Or just right click on link and open in incognito window.

Didn't think of that but good point. Thanks for that.

spacetweek

ToddyDoody wrote: »

Just taking a look at the Wikipedia page. One bit that stands out:

"Electric Picnic 2010
Waters attended the Electric Picnic music festival in 2010 and wrote that he felt a sense of dissatisfaction with the event, concluding that there was a lack of meaning underpinning events at the festival.[27] Sunday Tribune journalist Una Mullally replied that if John Waters felt disconnected or out of place at the Electric Picnic, that it was because the country had changed, and continued "perhaps this is the first Irish generation who have purposely opted out of tormenting themselves by searching for some unattainable greater meaning and who have chosen instead just to live".

Probably biting off more than you can chew here.

Una Mullaly is, or John Waters is? I agree with Una completely there.

I remember when JW went to EP and wrote about it. He came across as a complete fuddy-duddy.

kneemos

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

Do non white middle class folk in Ireland have radically different life experiences and opinions?

SafeSurfer

kneemos wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

The point I am making is that these great institutions promoting and celebrating diversity are some of the least diverse working environments In the country. It wasn’t enough that Waters was white and middle class, he committed the fatal sin of not conforming to the liberal group think as well.

There is an audience for opinions other than those of the urban, liberal, middle class elite in this country. Even if you remove one of those characteristics and replace it with another.

The Irish Times has lost over 40% of its readership in just 7 years.

Maybe more people don’t want to read the pontificating charlatans of the mould of Fintan O’ Toole spouting their social fashionista opinions.

Do non white middle class folk in Ireland have radically different life experiences and opinions?

Is that a serious question?