Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293056#Comment_120293056

What conspiracy theory? It’s pretty evident that Galway’s traffic issues is generating a lot of comment from the anticar ….Grouping… from beyond Galway. The reams and reams and reams of threads here and in other places are evidence of that. I’m just asking why Galway and not the other cities of Ireland? Why does Galway get the focus? (Not to say the questions aren’t getting answered, just extending out the thinking behind them)

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293346#Comment_120293346

What evidence do you have of that? That none of the other road works listed on this page will up emissions or that the council are hellbent on prioritising cars?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293342#Comment_120293342

Thread. The Galway thread. The only one that’s closed, moderated, and split into two. Unlike the other threads which have none of the massive political focus upon them.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293397#Comment_120293397

The thread was closed because of trolling - nothing to do with any anti car or whatever agenda.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293385#Comment_120293385

Have you actually read anything about the road because you continue to seem completely uninformed about it?

When the plans were submitted and subsequently discussed/reviewed, they confirmed that there would be an increase in emissions and in the number of vehicle KMs travelled.

This was widely reported on, e.g.

It points out that official documents supporting plans for the new road confirm it will increase CO2 emissions by 37%.

The 37% increase in CO2 was stated in the government-approved Business Case for the proposed road, released to Cosain following a Freedom of Information request. This was subsequently confirmed by Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) in a letter to Catherine Connolly TD, who had submitted a Parliamentary Question on the subject.

TII stated that approximately 26,000 tonnes of CO2 would be generated by the proposed road in the opening year, and 35,800 tonnes by 2039 “with the main contributory factor being an increase in vehicle kilometres travelled”.

The document also projected that modal share for peak hour car commuting would increase to 67.3% by 2039, while just 5% of all commutes would be by bus. The modal share for cycle commuting would reduce, decreasing to 2.8% in 2039.

It all comes down to the hard-learned understanding that youo cannot solve traffic congestion by making it more attractive to drive!

https://connachttribune.ie/city-council-warned-ring-road-would-increase-carbon-emissions-099/

As for you asking me how I know that the council are "hellbent on prioritising cars" - well, they're telling us this. They will look at some vague plans to encourage cycling and public transport once the road is complete.

To push it back to you, what options for public transport and active travel have been put forwards and are being actively implemented? What is the projected reduction in car journeys from these projects? How will these current projects benefit those in Galway who actually need to drive?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293438#Comment_120293438

Finally, some pertinent questions. I don’t have the answers for them. I’m expecting the Council to come back with how they plan to proceed given their rejection at ABP, which I expect to go into the other thread when it’s opened up.

whether that’s enough or not will be up for interpretation. On a personal level I prioritise the opening of another river crossing for vehicular traffic north of the City above all else, for reasons already stated. And I will support any and all projects that will bring that distinct criteria until the first one of them delivers it in reality. If it’s part of a ring road I back the ring road. If it’s by itself then I back it.

If it’s already on the board & has considerable legal works done behind it then I back it ahead of theoretical ones that have yet to start.

Deliver the bridge. Save lives. None of this theory bullsh*t matters.

hans aus dtschl

SeaSlacker, I can't tell whether you have people on mute, who are replying to you, that are answering your direct questions, or whether you're ignoring their answers.

Either way, just a heads-up it's making it a bit difficult to know whether to respond to you.

Long story short, Galway appears to be one of the few local authorities in Ireland (and I'd wager one of few in Europe) who are saying that they will consider alternative modes AFTER the roads projects are complete, and that is likely why this road in particular gets a near-unanimous negative response in a forum where almost everyone comes on to discuss roads projects favourably. There's very few people in this forum "anti car". I probably come across as one of them, and yet I'm in favour of the Dunkettle scheme, the N/M20, the M28, N22 (all schemes), N17, N26, N72, N2, etc etc.

I'm not even against a Galway bypass, as I've said a few times. This planned road isn't a bypass.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293553#Comment_120293553

The project application is being reviewed by ABP given that they didn't consider the Climate Action Plan when considering the application.

The City & County Councils however are still holding the view that the ring road is the way forwards. There currently are no alternative plans. So given that they aren't looking at alternatives, it could be years before they finally change tact and do something that will have tangible benefits to all.

Sam Russell

@[Deleted User]

Mod: This is not a thread for support for the GCRR - that thread is currently closed because the project is suspended, and so there is currently a fact free space on it.

This thread is for discussing alternative ways of reducing congestion by other means. That means that cycling infrastructure should be proposed, plus other active travel options.

I do not want to lead this discussion as a mod, but I will comment as a poster.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293556#Comment_120293556

Seth is a mod so I cannot mute him in case he speaks as a mod. I have no way of discerning that without unmuting him.

Sam’s right that this place isn’t for discussing the ring road, so i will leave you unanswered.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293586#Comment_120293586

What evidence have you that the ring road is everything? Is there nothing on other matters? The new Salmon Wier bridge? The bus gate? The bus lanes? Are they things I just imagine?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292841#Comment_120292841

There’s been plenty of discussion of ways to reduce traffic on the threads for Limerick Northern Distributor Road, Cork N40 North, Cork Northern Distributor, and the M4 lane improvements threads, the Adare bypass/Foynes scheme, N/M20... I could go on. Posters there say the same things as are said about the Galway Ring Road, but because people generally stay on topic here, there’s almost no mention Galway at all.

I don’t know of a “National Solutions” thread on the Roads forum, so I can’t comment. But each city’s difficulties are different. Galway’s problems, which I think are the worst of any city in the state, for its size, are a combination of difficult geography and decades of criminally lax land-use planning that has created a sea of car-dependant super-low-density housing to the West; Cork’s problems are are down to a historical hijacking the national road network to use as a suburban commuter road network, creating the growth of car-dependent exurbs (what has happened with N40 after its many upgrades is the reason I changed my mind about N6 and now believe it’s a bad idea). Dublin has Cork’s problems multiplied, plus a strong anti-bus lobby in its more affluent areas, but Dublin at least has ambitious plans for public transport..

But we discuss those cities in their own threads. This one is about Galway, so you won’t hear much about those other places here.

Seth Brundle

What evidence have you that the ring road is everything? Is there nothing on other matters? The new Salmon Wier bridge? The bus gate? The bus lanes? Are they things I just imagine?

Can you show me actual coherent plans and how they will improve travel movements (although I probably shouldn't use the word "movement")?

Regarding the Salmon Weir Bridge work, have a read through this thread...

https://twitter.com/IrishCycle/status/1569403990466592768?s=20

That’s fair. I would have made the new bridge vehicular for busses & made the Salmon Wier for pedestrians & cyclists.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293706#Comment_120293706

That was everyone's thoughts on the new bridge but the cheaper option was chosen i.e. it's far cheaper to build a walking/cycling bridge than one that needs to be able to support the weight of buses etc

xckjoo

Is there any alternative traffic solutions being implemented by GCC at the moment that aren't being forced on them at a national level? Struggling to think of any. 30kmph speed limit might fit loosely in that category. The footbridge is one but with the problems outlined above. I doubt Bus Connect would be happening if they didn't have to. Have we had any new bus lanes, bus routes, cycle ways or footpath improvements in recent years? I'm sure there's something but I can't think of them.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293859#Comment_120293859

And I suppose that’s my point. “If you want action, you need to do it by force.” Council. Public. It’s all about what can be done to force them to live right.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293859#Comment_120293859

They've done a load of half measures. Even the GTS is full of them

Some good stuff they've done is around permeability and reopening of laneways

But then when people ask for pedestrian crossing, they build them, but not where they are needed i.e. away from desire lines, all in a bid to keep car drivers happy, the recent one at Blackrock is a good example of this

Even looking at some of the junctions which replaced the RAB's, they haven't put crossings on all arms. Tuam Rd is a good example, where a pedestrian ahs to go through 7 crossing, yes 7, to cross a road. Someone timed it previously, came in at 14 mins or something stupid like that, see the route from A to B below

Then there is the whole debacle around kissing gates. GCC were talking for years around doing survey because they didn't know where they all were. I went and did the survey myself and made a map of them, 70+.

GCC took the map, did up a report (phase 1) and said "yeah we should do another review (phase 2) to see which ones we are responsible for and then another report (phase 3) to see which ones they might actually, possibly, maybe, remove

In the meantime, they continued installing them around the city

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120293634#Comment_120293634

I think it's worthwhile mentioning Dublin and Cork from this point of view - the roads that should have been bypasses, the M50 and N40, instead ended up becoming Ring Roads because of the fact that there are far too many junctions on them.

By contrast, the Waterford and Limerick bypasses are proper bypasses. The Waterford Bypass has four junctions, three of which connect to national roads and the fourth to the inner ring road - and that's it.

Ditto with Limerick, which has six junctions, five of which connect to National Roads, and one which connects to an inner ring road.

Using the above two models, Galway's original Outer Bypass plan (IIRC), followed the Waterford and Limerick models, whereas the new Ring Road is a junction for everyone, Cork/Dublin type of design.

GCC could have gone the right way (junctions at Furbo, Newcastle (N59) and Doughiska), but chose not to.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120294684#Comment_120294684

I’m not one to go past a mod instruction, so I’d hope this question gets put in its rightful place or removed if needs be for the thread’s intent.

I take it the difference between Bypass & Ring Road is a RR has more junctions. What’s to stop any extraneous junctions becoming busgated to make the road a bypass in effect?

KrisW1001

Calling a road a “Ring road” (or “Orbital”) just describes the path that the road takes; it says nothing else about it. “Ring” roads go around the centre of a town or city, rather than into and out of the centre (those would be “Radial” roads). It doesn’t have to be a closed circle to be a “ring”, either, which is why some people prefer to describe these as “Orbital” routes to avoid the “but it’s not a circle” objections..

On the other hand, names like “Bypass”, “Distributor”, “Relief Road” describe the function of the road:

• A “Bypass” gives a way for long-distance traffic that has no interest in the town or city to completely avoid going near it. Usually it will be a good distance from the town with few intermediate junctions, very far apart (maybe just one for each side of the town).
• A “Distributor” (or “Collector/Distributor”, C/D) is more local, and is mainly for traffic in and around the city. It provides an express route from one part of a city to another. These can be any level of capacity, and they aren’t bad in themselves - especially if they act as public-transport and active-travel backbones, but high capacity, car-only C/D roads are a sign of car-dependency problems elsewhere.
• A “Relief Road” is smaller scale again, and usually provides a new route for traffic so that it will avoid a particularly congested street or streets.

These functions don’t have hard boundaries, and some roads will fit in two categories: Cork’s N40 provides a Bypass for East-West traffic in South Munster but it also acts as a Collector/Distributor for the southern suburbs. The N22 Macroom Bypass is a good example of a bypass road - it isn’t much benefit to people in and around Macroom except that it takes all the Cork/Kerry through-traffic out of their town’s main street.

The problem with calling Galway’s N6 a “Bypass” is that there’s nowhere beyond Galway that produces anything like the amount of traffic that would justify a road of this size. Functionally, it’s a Collector/Distributor, and it’s a huge one at that - the Eastern end is as wide as N40, for a city with less than half the population of Cork, and no through traffic.

A bypass of Galway would be very useful, and is needed, but it does not have to be a huge motorway.

there’s more to add re: the “no through traffic” lie (the phrase “chicken and egg “ come to mind)- but I’m restained by instruction from discussing it.

To bring things back on track as it were I wonder what people think of light rail on the Western side of the city? Where should it go?

Sam Russell

I would put a Luas from Claregalway to city centre, with a second line from Coolagh following B na dT to Knocknacarra, crossing the Corrib near the QCBridge. Of course a BRT or just buses would be just as good, and cheaper.

P&R provision spread across the route as appropriate.

Public transport is the key to solving congestion. Single occupancy cars take up too much road space to be sustainable - whether they are diesel or electric/battery powered.

xckjoo

I'd think buses would be the way to go too in terms of ease to implement but light rail is probably a better solution. I read something a few years ago about how we should be letting our transport infrastructure dictate the housing and not the other way round. Basically if we built light rail stations, new housing would naturally cluster near it. Right now we build housing and then scramble to supply it with bigger roads, etc. So if we were looking for new housing developments (e.g.) west of the city, start with picking a location for the station and then comes the planning permission for what would essentially be a village around it. Now you've new homes that aren't completely tied to using cars.

I thought it was an interesting point and a more forward thinking approach. But I doubt it would fly in Galway. GCC aren't exactly forward thinking.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120296423#Comment_120296423

There is no point in talking about light rail since it is not on offer to Galway from TII - Cork may get one in a decade's time, and Galway would be far behind that.

Also, there is very little evidence that GCC, even if they were to plan sensibly, would then actually provide the public transport corridor, or the public transport. Let's not forget that the WDR was designed to allow for future expansion to include Bus Lanes but, what, two decades later(?), there is no sign of any Bus Corridor on that road.

Adamstown in Dublin is an example of what you're talking about, but almost twenty years after it started, only a quarter of the planned houses were built.

xckjoo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297903#Comment_120297903

Oh ya. To be clear I don't think what I said is a runner in Ireland. We aren't organised enough for something like that. It would need a high level of long-term planning and inter-departmental cooperation and coordination between governmental/council bodies. We're also too invested in the private developer. I just thought it was an interesting take on how planning should probably work. It would be nice to see a bit of that mentality being adopted.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297903#Comment_120297903

13 years ago Council submitted a Bid to Dept for Transport for bus and cycles paths along full length of WDR for a mere €10million as part of Smarter Travel bid. No action on that since - but they have put in raised crossings along length of WDR at Roundabouts which have been great have to say.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120297953#Comment_120297953

Ah now - you're talking about proper planning and you're talking about Ireland. You only have to look at all the ribbon development in County Galway to realise that we don't go in for that kind of thing at all.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298202#Comment_120298202

I was pleased to see those raised crossings going in, but given a car can easily drive over them at close to 50k without issue, I wonder is a redesign in order. It should not be possible to drive over such a speed control at or close to the max speed limit

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120298373#Comment_120298373

I think I would narrow the carriageway first. Put in wider and raised cycle paths along WDR first before modifying the raised crossings themselves. Do get some vehicles speeding between the roundabout junctions but the raised crossings themselves have certainly reduced speeds that vehicles are taking the roundabout at.

SeanW

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120292412#Comment_120292412

I don't see how a city-wide 30kph limit is going to "solve traffic" considering that in traffic 30kph is a dream anyway. This just confirms my view that the only reason to have 30kph speed limits is to punish drivers. Sometimes 30kph limits are promoted on the basis of road safety, but these days road fatalities are so rare that they can be expressed in terms of low single digits per billion vehicle-kilometres. So that's BS. The environmental case does not exist either because holding to a 30kph limit over any distance uses more fuel than driving at a sensible speed. So that's a terrible idea unless you do not believe in anthropogenic climate change and think that petrol grows on trees. So that just leaves punitive value - lower speed limits disproportionately to punish people for driving.

Thanks for the confirmation.