Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303631#Comment_120303631

Again, it's really very simple

• Impacts at 30k lead to almost no deaths where the opposite is true at 50k
• Injuries in survivors of impacts at 30k are a lot less severe whereas injuries suffered from being hit at 50k can have life altering consequences
• Cycling in 30k traffic is a lot more appealing to a lot more people than cycling in 50k traffic
• Also less noise
• Less emissions

There's a lot to like.

SeanW

First of all, the question was of how to solve traffic. It's in the thread title: Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

30kph has nothing to do with this because speed limits are theoretical when nobody is moving. As to your points:

• Point 1 is largely irrelevant in the Irish context where fatalities of any case are incredibly rare. Point 2 is broadly similar.
• As to cyclists, I never understood why they harp on about speed limits so much considering that they just use the footpath whenever they feel like it.
• As to emissions, that's a demonstrable falsehood. Holding a 30kph speed for any length of time wastes fuel. I proved that.

So there is no reason to apply 30kph limits on a broad basis. That just leaves a punitive case, which you expressly make by putting 30kph limits under the heading of "Making the car the least attractive option." I understand your logic - if you have rules that serve no purpose except to cause frustration and waste people's time and fuel, then yes, that may indeed disincentivise some from driving. But it won't to anything about traffic congestion, will have a negative effect on the climate, won't make any difference to lawbreaking cyclists, and won't do very much for road safety considering that almost all drivers in this country will never even be involved in - let alone the cause of - a fatal incident of any description.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303928#Comment_120303928

Nope, to, well, all of that

Incidentally your opinion is not shared by GCC and Councillors as they have already approved the 30k limits, they're just working on the finer details before it gets applied in 2024

https://www.galwaydaily.com/news/council-votes-to-include-30km-h-speed-limits-for-schools-in-review/

SeanW

No, to, well, what exactly? As to Galway City Council introducing 30kph limits, that doesn't prove it's a good idea, lots of bad ideas have been implemented throughout history for various reasons.

xckjoo

A slower speed improves flow and reduces the bottlenecks. It's the same reason you're told not to run to the exit in a fire.

It wouldn't have the same effect as something like improved PT but it would improve things. That's assuming it's enforced and people stick to it. The other thing that would help is stopping red light jumpers and people blocking junctions. That has a huge knock on impact. And people moving off faster when the lights go green. Don't think that last one is a law, just reduces the junction throughput and is really annoying 😁

KrisW1001

^^@xckjoo Exactly!

Under a lower, 30km/h limit, you do have slower travel time between each light-controlled junction, but in most urban areas, waiting at lights is the larger contributor to journey times, so there’s no actual loss of time, and there will usually be a gain, as the lower speed makes the junctions more efficient (as you say, lower limits reduce the number of people running red lights, which is a major problem in congested streets, and can quickly reduce a whole neighbourhood to a standstill as more people ignore the traffic lights and just go whenever there’s a space), so overall you will probably get through the area slightly faster than if a 50km/h limit applied. And as a bonus, you use less fuel. And another advantage: you’ve more time to react to hazards. And again: even if someone does something completely reckless and you end up in a crash, the chances are nobody will be seriously injured.

The only disadvantage is that Jeremy Clarkson hates the-- no, hang on, that’s another advantage.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120303631#Comment_120303631

This is a quote from the article that you linked to:

"For velocities below 30 km/h the fuel consumption is quite high (above 8 l/100km – 29.34 mpg). Unfortunately this speed range is typical for cars circulating in a city – urban environment. Cars are subjected to a continuous start and stop motion due to junctions and traffic lights. Furthermore, at the main city roads (at the center of the city for example) there is very often traffic congestion. These two parameters – as well as some others – lead to a very low average speed, and, consequently, to high fuel consumption and emissions."

SeanW

A lot to unpack here. Firstly the fire exit example. I'm familiar with the idea and something like that is being tried on the M50 with variable speed limits. The difference though is that the hypothetical fire exit is clear and the idea on the M50 is to keep things moving continuously. That's not the case where a group is going to end up waiting at lights no matter what, and it remains true that most won't get anywhere near either 30kph or 50kph during serious congestion. The other problems identified by both @xckjoo and @KrisW1001 are not directly connected, e.g. red light running and yellow box junction blocking. They should be addressed separately.

As to the comment that: "even if someone does something completely reckless" again this does not really apply to Ireland. For reference, when last the RSA published statistics, there were a little over 2.5 million Fully Category B (car) licenses in this country, and a total of just over 2.8 million people with some kind of license (Full Motorcycle, Bus, Truck, Learner permit for something etc) as of 2016. The odds of any driver being involved in - let alone the cause of - a serious incident during a journey are infinitesimal, even over a driver's lifetime very small, and it's very difficult on a factual basis to claim that road safety in this country is a wide scale systemic issue. Serious/Fatal incidents are so rare in this country that an argument can be made that we should punish those who cause them, rather than 2.5 or 2.8 million people that were not involved in, let alone the cause of them.

As for the argument that we should force 2.8 million people to crawl everyone for no reason just to piss off Jeremy Clarkson ... frankly I'm having difficulty figuring out how best to respond to something so moronic and puerile.

Finally, it is not true of every road in an urban area that one is subject to continuous stop-start motion. In Ireland there are many roads in urban areas that have urban limits where you may be able to travel anywhere from 500M - 2KM at a continuous speed, and the data are clear that in these cases, higher speeds are more fuel efficient up to around 60kph. One example is in Galway, the N59 from the last set of traffic lights to the city limits at the Glenlo Abbey, or in Dublin the R109 between Islandbrige and Chapelizod. Go around the country to smaller, less dense urban areas and you will find plenty more of such roads. Again, a broad application of 30kph limits on routes like these will cause more emissions, not less due to the laws of physics.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306891#Comment_120306891

Your Galway example is perhaps not that useful. You are not travelling through sets of traffic lights. Probably better example is an area with many traffic lights like Terryland or Seamus Quirke Road, or roads with lots of juctions/houses on it like Bohermore or Shantall Road. Most of the traffic lights in the City are currently configured for a 50kmph average speed. They can also be adjusted to 30kmph if need be.

Definitely the 30kmph ZONE that the City Council are proposing should also include the Roads on the perimeter which is been kept at 50kmph. Especially roads like the Lower and Upper Newcastle Road. Spanish Arch, Wolfe Tone Bridge, Fr Griffen Road .

Any wide Roads will need to re-engineered to be 30kmph - for example the Siobhan McKenna Road in Westside for it to be an effective 30kmph ZONE

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306891#Comment_120306891

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306942#Comment_120306942

That Galway example is also very badly chosen when you consider that only a few weeks have passed since a lady crossing the road at that location was killed by a driver..................

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307115#Comment_120307115

True. Just trying to cross a very wide road. The N59 within the City Boundary needs to be given a major road diet. Needs re-engineering IMHO and then put in 30kmph. The Cycle paths will narrow the carriageway widths. Thomas Hynes Road and Clifden Road are ideal for it - will be cheap enough to do. TII would need to get on board.

Going back to why lower speed limits are used in an urban area, one of the main reason the roads engineers do it, it's not for people on foot or bike but to get greater throughput of vehicles through the junctions.

Unrealistic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120306891#Comment_120306891

@SeanW "The odds of any driver being involved in - let alone the cause of - a serious incident during a journey are infinitesimal, even over a driver's lifetime very small, and it's very difficult on a factual basis to claim that road safety in this country is a wide scale systemic issue. Serious/Fatal incidents are so rare in this country that an argument can be made that we should punish those who cause them, rather than 2.5 or 2.8 million people that were not involved in, let alone the cause of them."

You can keep repeating your argument that there is some tiny minority of drivers with an exceptionally dangerous driving style that makes them stand out from all the rest, and that serious injuries and deaths on Irish roads are caused by this identifiable tiny cohort, but no matter how many times you repeat it, it's still nonsensical.

Collisions generally happen because of dangerous behaviour that is exhibited by huge swathe of drivers on our roads. Most times they get away with it but then, that one time, some other circumstance works against them and the results are catastrophic. One example from personal experience; I cycle to work most days along a stretch of country road with four blind bends in relatively quick succession. At least once on every journey a driver will decide to gamble that there is no one coming around the bend towards us and overtake me on the bend, rather than waiting a few seconds until we're back on a straight section and they can pass safely. If another driver is coming around the bend, and is still just out of sight while the overtaking driver has gone past the point of no return, then the outcome is likely to be fatal for someone (me most likely seeing as I'm the one not in a protective metal box). Doing this manoeuvre is completely illegal but most of the time there are no consequences, other than to my blood pressure, because there isn't a car coming around the corner. Sometimes there are close calls where an oncoming car has to hit the brakes and/or the overtaking driver has to brake hard and pull back in behind me. Two of those have been very close, one van driver very narrowly avoiding a head on collision because the oncoming driver braked to a complete stop so quickly, and the reckless driver of an ancient Toyota coming within inches of taking me out when she had to brake hard and pull left as a car came around the corner.

A close relative of mine, and those in the car with her, were seriously injured by an oncoming driver taking a chance and overtaking when he couldn't see enough clear road to be sure he could complete the manoeuvre safely. More recently, in Wexford last week, a man was tragically killed and two other drivers and two kids were seriously injured in a collision involving two cars and a tractor. We won't know the full details until an inquest is held but the details already released make it sound like it has many similar elements. These collisions don't happen because a tiny minority of drivers do something astoundingly reckless that the rest of the drivers in the country wouldn't dream of doing. They happen because a huge number of drivers every day break the law and take a gamble that there won't be another vehicle, or a person walking or on a bike, in a particular space and moving at particular trajectory. The drivers who lose that gamble aren't aberrations and your call to punish those for whom the gamble has not paid but ignore the many other drivers exhibiting similar behaviour, is completely wrongheaded.

Lastly, regarding the assertion that "it's very difficult on a factual basis to claim that road safety in this country is a wide scale systemic issue", I think you've been called up on this before but it's worth repeating if you are going to continue to make this groundless claim. Road safety is not just about reducing the deaths and serious injuries that do happen. It's also about addressing the journeys that don't happen at all because the roads here are so hostile. Ireland has some of the worst stats in Europe for the proportion of short journeys undertaken by car, for the number of kids being driving to school etc. A huge part of that is that parents feel compelled to drive their kids to school because they perceive the roads to be too dangerous for them to walk or cycle, and adults cite safety fears around driver behaviour and poor infrastructure as the primary reasons why they choose not to cycle on short journeys, leaving the weather in third place. It's not my analogy, but it's a good one; you don't judge the safety of a shark infested swimming pool by its low number of drownings. Allowing people to feel they can comfortably choose to walk or ride a bike to get to where they need to go is a critical measure of road safety.

SeanW

@what_traffic the N59 in Galway is basically a rural road, with one-off houses, farms, leading out to what looks like a high end rural retreat ...

@Unrealistic I'm not going to defend genuinely dangerous drivers. If someone is going to do crazy things like regularly overtake on blind bends, they shouldn't be on the road. But if the roads were as full of reckless gamblers as you claim, it would be borne out in statistics. It's not. And I never claimed that there was an identifiable cohort of maniacs that could be easily identified, only that fatal/serious incidents are so rare in this country that virtually all drivers will never even be involved in one let alone the cause - which is an irrefutable fact. My opinion thusly is that this cohort - almost the entirety of the 2.5/2.8 million - should not be collectively punished for the small number of incidents that do occur, instead the culpable parties should be.

Regarding the "sharks in a swimming pool" analogy, my first answer to that would be the fact that people are not dying is ipso facto a good thing. My second answer to that is that is that those using the analogy to promote 30kph speed limits are trying to punish 2.5/2.8 million motorists for accidents that not only were they not involved in, but that only ever happened in someone's mind! And as a routine pedestrian, I find the case overstated in any event. Granted this is anecdotal, personally there are only a handful of types of environments I would not walk in, such as main roads in rural areas with no hard shoulder or footpath, but I have little cause do so in any case.

Regarding your point about schools, none of the usual complaints about 50kph speed limits or "car centric culture" or whatever explain some of the issues surrounding schools. I've referenced in other threads how other countries plan education such that even if their society is dramatically more car centric than Ireland, they don't have the same problems at schools. I have specific evidence for root causes that are not transport related, but as I regard it as off-topic, I may post another thread about it.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307675#Comment_120307675

Serious question, where is it that you (or these motorists) going to that they need to drive up to 50kph in a city centre?

Cities should be for people to live, work, socialise, shop around - having a 30kph limit would improve the quality of life within the city, as well as the safety benefits.

SeanW

My objection is to a broad application of 30kph limits, such as the idea of 30kph as default. They have a place for sure, residential estates, some core central streets, some places where there is some specific problem etc. But on arterial roads, especially further from core central areas they would do nothing but waste people's time and fuel.

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307720#Comment_120307720

There’s a reasonable amount of evidence that at lower average speeds, drivers are more likely to be courteous to other road users (including other drivers). More likely to let pedestrians cross the road, more likely to wait for cyclists until there’s room to get past safety, more likely to let drivers join from a side road, etc. So it’s not entirely true to say that lower speeds wastes people’s time, it saves other people time too. And given that average speed in cities dictated primarily by stopping time, not moving speed, a higher speed limit has very little ability to save a driver time at all.

KrisW1001

@SeanW The Jeremy Clarkson comment was clearly humorous: I’m disappointed that you decided to take it seriously.

When I said “do something reckless” I was referring to pedestrians and cyclists, who often put themselves directly in the path of oncoming cars though a lack of observation.

You don’t give a number for “serious/fatal accidents” when you claim they’re vanishingly rare, so let me add some data: The latest data, 2022, is 156 fatalities in 150 incidents. Drivers were are the most often killed (60), then pedestrians (42, a more than doubling of 2021) [source: PowerPoint Presentation (rsa.ie)]. However, this is incomplete data, and 2022 was still not a “normal” year.

In 2019, the last year for which figures are available, and the last “normal” year until this one, there 129 fatal incidents, and 140 people killed, but there were also 5,700 non-fatal collisions, causing injuries to 7598 people. Taking your 2.8 million figure for licence-holders (which is correct for 2019, by the way), that’s one collision causing injury per 491 licenced drivers. “Infinitesimal” is definitely not the right word. [and here’s the source for those figures: road-casualties-and-collisions-in-ireland-2019.pdf (rsa.ie) ].

And the argument for 30 km/h limits is not a blanket one, and never has been. Setting speed limits based on observed traffic flow is standard practice, not some shadowy “punishment”. Where there are areas that are under 50 km/h limits but have average traffic speeds below 30 km/h, then setting the lower limit in these cases has been shown, time and time again to improve throughput. Your core argument seems to be that slowing traffic down in these cases will cause needless delays and wasted fuel; if that is your objection, it is baseless.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120307675#Comment_120307675

No its not. The N59 in Galway City is of a National Road Standard construction within the Galway City. It ONLY gets "rural" at the very perimeter of the City Boundary at Bushypark, West of Kelehans pub where the City Boundary actually ends (Glenlo Abbey Hotel is in the County). A lot of ribbon development on roads off the N59 in this area for sure.

On a side note Kelehans pub which is currently getting renovated and will reopen soon.

Great news since the Westwood Hotel was demolished and in its place we now have Student Apartments in Dangan.

xckjoo

A few general comments.

1) 30kmph shouldn't be blanket applied but should be where applicable for safety and efficiency. 2) Even minor fender benders have a bit impact on traffic so should be reduced as much as possible (and slower speeds help this). 3) stop-starting is massively inefficient and speeding increases this. There's multiple streteches of road around the city with lights at each end that are timed to match max speed limits but people don't notice because they speed on the road and then sit at a red light and slowing things down. There's also good videos online showing the ripple effect on traffic if drivers have to make big adjustments like rapid slow downs. 4) improving driving standards would reduce traffic a lot but it's a difficult one to tackle. Enforcement of existing rules would be the easist start. 5) I've no problem with Bothar na dTreabh speed limit being increased but also have not problem with it staying the same. Speed limits should probably be reviewed regularly and adjusted on the basis of safety and efficiency.

There's no silver bullet to fix the traffic issues in the city but there's lots of small things that can be done to improve it. Things that GCC could be pursuing now without any changes to road infrastructure

Sam Russell

Quote: There's no silver bullet to fix the traffic issues in the city but there's lots of small things that can be done to improve it. Things that GCC could be pursuing now without any changes to road infrastructure

Mod: That is precisely the point of this thread - not complaining about speed limits, or other actions suggested by posters.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308869#Comment_120308869

 5) I've no problem with Bothar na dTreabh speed limit being increased but also have not problem with it staying the same. Speed limits should probably be reviewed regularly and adjusted on the basis of safety and efficiency.

DITTO. The chatter the Bothar na dTreabh Speed van gets locally is a nuisance at this stage, it really would be better if the speed vans and our local Gardai had more presence in around the inner City roads itself - I'd rather see a big focus on speed limits within 500 meters of all the Schools instead.

what_traffic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308916#Comment_120308916

Minor changes to the road infrastructure should be on the table though IMHO. Council are just not systematic in how they operate. Roads Dept are structured for just ONE OFF Projects and not continuous minor improvements for our streets and roads.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120308176#Comment_120308176

Roads have never been safer and are getting safer all the time, even though population, car ownership and journeys are increasing

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_road_traffic_accidents_deaths_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland_by_year

markpb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309184#Comment_120309184

The problem with looking at road crash statistics in isolation is that it ignores the people who are unwilling to use active transport because of the perceived risks involved. The word perceived is important there. If parents are unwilling to let their kids cycle to school because they see the road as unsafe, it doesn't matter what the accident rate actually is.

Car safety systems are constantly improving so a road used entirely by drivers of modern cars will have a fantastically low accident rate. If no-one else feels safe using that road, it's all meaningless.

hans aus dtschl

Also, the statement that "Roads have never been safer and are getting safer all the time, even though population, car ownership and journeys are increasing" doesn't seem to be true. Road deaths are either stable or slightly on the increase for the last five years. Trending the data, the downward curve in road deaths that had been the norm has basically flat-lined. Serious injuries are on the increase for the last few years.

Road deaths are particularly on the rise for vulnerable users, whose mode share numbers appear to have been dropping (we'll find out in April). This likely coincides with vehicle size increases, but basically....it seems like something closer to the OPPOSITE of what was posted might be the truth. That is to say, something more like the following is the truth:

"Roads appear to be getting more dangerous, particularly for vulnerable users. This is despite road safety consistently improving for those inside of vehicles." It's actually a topic that many people are discussing at the moment in terms of a lack of Garda enforcement of roads, and apparent current ineffectiveness of the Road Safety Authority. Their original goal was zero road deaths, but seem to have quietly given up on that goal.

The shark-pool analogy starts to look more accurate under those conditions.

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120309184#Comment_120309184

Roads are safer .......

Streets, not so much...

Pedestrian deaths doubled last year as road deaths rose 13% overall

xckjoo

And as I mentioned before, in the context of traffic even slight tips can cause huge delays. Doesn't have to be a fatal crash.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120310040#Comment_120310040

2022 was the 5th lowest number of road fatalities since 1946. This followed 2021 which was the lowest. Doesn’t sound as alarmist is 13% increase though. 2021 pedestrian deaths were by far the lowest they have been over the previous years. 2022 returned to the normal trend. It is never advisable to judge a trend over a single year

TnxM17

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314326#Comment_120314326

Ok then, lets have a look over the 10 years to 2019.

While fatalities in car crashes decrease, pedestrian deaths remained stubbornly high and didn't have the same downward trajectory as car fatalities.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120314911#Comment_120314911

More people in the country. Deaths steady. Equals falling rate.

There is no utopia where there will be no accidents ever.

We are in a much better position than we ever have for road deaths since widespread use of motor vehicles began. It doesn’t fit with the everything is awful always narrative that fills public discourse here however.