Ireland vs Argentina 10/11/18 - This time it's not personal [1830, RTE2 & C4]

Lucy8080

WillieMason wrote: »

not Bundees either tbf plus best is the captain its shameful

I like songs. I've even been known to watch Eurovision.

Sing along/don't sing along...shame has nothing to do with it.

WillieMason

laugh wrote: »

The line out is such pish tonight.

Yet ryan got motm?

leakyboots

Interesting call at 15 if RK is out, still think the jersey is Larmours. Thought Conway should have been brought on earlier for a look so that probably rules him out.

Pleasantly surprised by Addison, thought he was composed enough out there. Don't think he'll feature this weekend but he's definitely raised eyebrows. Aki was very impressive, he offers something very different to Henshaw going forward and is very solid in defence. He's knocking on the door big time now for me.

Ryan and Henderson didnt function well today, though Ryan picked it up majorly in the second half. Perhaps Beirne to bench and Toner to replace Henderson but they've earned enough credit to be given another shot at it.

Backrow were superb, Leavy was immense off the bench, POM was his usual self and Stander worked himself into the ground.

RE debate here - Ruddock is a good player but he's not on the same level as POM. Wouldn't lose sleep over seeing him in the lineup at all but POM is a step above. Theres a reason he's captained every team he's played for including the Lions and Ruddock wasn't really part of the conversation for them. Absolute menace in the lineout, arguably Munster and Ireland's best defensive weapon.

Marmion did very well until the injury, thought he did enough to warrant a start if Murray is out. Gotta feel for SOB, can't catch a break. Best wasn't at the races, I'd love to see Scannell given a shot in the big game but not sure it'll happen next weekend.

Curious game, we didn't hit our stride at all and Argentina put it up to us.

Looking at the other international games I'd be very worried about South Africa, they're building a serious team. They could put us out in the quarters of the RWC the way they're going assuming they finish as second to the ABs.

Don't think we'll win next weekend.

BonnieSituation

WillieMason wrote: »

not Bundees either tbf plus best is the captain its shameful

Even the horribly awful nationalist I am knows what that Jersey means even if AbF doesn't mean jack to "Our captain". To denigrate him for that is uncalled for. And pathetic.

That being said, watching Bundee belt it out warmed the cockles of this boy as I watched from Paris.

I can't wait for next week when I go to the jacks for Ireland's Call AND the haka

Try_harder

WillieMason wrote: »

not Bundees either tbf plus best is the captain its shameful

Its not. I think you are looking for reasons to be offended

duskyjoe

Is Bests position at risk as Inthougjt he brought little go forward to the game ? Nugget and Scannell for me

boredatwork82

The Irish lineout has been very hit and miss over the last few years. I remember reading an article about how the Irish lineout was the worst in the six Nations for awhile, but I they got it sorted.

I am not sure it is down to just Rory Best, but a combination of factors including a lack of movement and pace.
It is also important to remember that Rory Best is 36. At some point age will start catching up with him. But if are lineout is as bad as it was today we will get our holes opened on Saturday.

Regarding Larmour, if Kearney is not fit I assume he will start. Joe tends not to make mad radical changes. I think some people on forums like this don't realise the amount of specific details all the positions go into and their roles in the system in Joe's Ireland. I would highly doubt Addison has enough time in the system to be learning two roles to satisfy Joe that he can play there. He is our 5th choice centre. But Larmour is not taking his opportunities. Granted the Irish back play is horrendous and doesn't give him the same space and chances he gets in Leinster, but I would expect him to do better. He is beginning to look like a player who is class against poor/mediocre opposition, but the step up to top tier teams and he is nullified. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe Joe's system doesn't suit a naturally talented back like Larmour, ala Simon Zebo.

Former Former

boredatwork82 wrote: »

The Irish lineout has been very hit and miss over the last few years. I remember reading an article about how the Irish lineout was the worst in the six Nations for awhile, but I they got it sorted.

I am not sure it is down to just Rory Best, but a combination of factors including a lack of movement and pace.
It is also important to remember that Rory Best is 36. At some point age will start catching up with him. But if are lineout is as bad as it was today we will get our holes opened on Saturday.

Regarding Larmour, if Kearney is not fit I assume he will start. Joe tends not to make mad radical changes. I think some people on forums like this don't realise the amount of specific details all the positions go into and their roles in the system in Joe's Ireland. I would highly doubt Addison has enough time in the system to be learning two roles to satisfy Joe that he can play there. He is our 5th choice centre. But Larmour is not taking his opportunities. Granted the Irish back play is horrendous and doesn't give him the same space and chances he gets in Leinster, but I would expect him to do better. He is beginning to look like a player who is class against poor/mediocre opposition, but the step up to top tier teams and he is nullified. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe Joe's system doesn't suit a naturally talented back like Larmour, ala Simon Zebo.

The system seems to suit Kearney, Stockdale and Earls fine, Bowe and Trimble before them and in reality it suited Zebo too, Joe just preferred better players.

If Larmour can't fit in, then he's either not ready or not good enough. His problem last night was that he couldn't cope with high balls and the Argies targetted him because of it. That's nothing to do with the system.

Buer

Bit of a disappointing showing although I thought the expectation was completely over the top. The bookies had us at 18 point favourites which I thought was absurd. Losing Henshaw hurt us in defence although Argentina are great at creating space in midfield through quick hands and moving the point of attack. Aki was excellent and was probably my MOTM alongside POM, though. Neither were perfect and made some notable errors but both really stepped up with some big moments at important times.

I'm not surprised by Addison's showing at all. I was saying that he was a very likely RWC squad member two months ago and I think a spot is his to lose at this point. His flexibility and intelligence on the ball gives him a huge edge. Chris Farrell is the likely man to miss out given his complete lack of game time. He's in a race to make the 6N squad at this point.

The line out is a huge concern. That was very poor. Argentina defended it brilliantly and deserve more credit than they're getting but there were undoubtedly a couple of throws that were handy enough to disrupt and you'd be looking for better hands from some of our jumpers also at times. I think Best's jersey is going to be under huge pressure now and, whilst I expect him to get the nod next week, I think he needs to put in a very good showing to keep the wolves from the door.

SOB is brutally unlucky. I would expect him to be out of the 6N now and that puts him at a real disadvantage for the RWC squad where there's going to be an odd man out from the 3 opensides. If VDF and Leavy stay fit, they're now in the driving seat. On the topic of Leavy, if he had actually played more than 45 minutes, he was a shoe in for man of the match.

Sexton will need to up his game again. Goal kicking (conversion aside) was very good which is a positive but his general attacking play was not up to scratch. He'll be disappointed with himself but he's so far ahead of the others that he still couldn't be removed until the game was essentially over.

NZ won't be worried at all. Hopefully the physicality and conditions of Twickenham will have taken a little spring out of their step....but I really doubt it.

WillieMason

WillieMason wrote: »

not Bundees either tbf plus best is the captain its shameful

Zzzzzzz

Podge_irl

Buer wrote: »

NZ won't be worried at all. Hopefully the physicality and conditions of Twickenham will have taken a little spring out of their step....but I really doubt it.

Ah, I still remember the Aus game before the "game that must not be mentioned". It was a disaster and yet look how they turned it around. The preparation for this game was disrupted even without the late injury withdrawal.

As well as Addison did, I think Ringrose in at 13 will make an absolutely huge difference.

Quint2010

I think the time has come where Joe needs to start planning without Seán O'Brien. He's too injury prone and isn't as dynamic around the park as he used to be. He's seems to be carrying a lot of timber too. Leavy was sensational when he came on. A definite starter next week. I'd be worried about Larmour too. I'd be tempted to start Conway at FB. He seems comfortable under high ball.

Try_harder

Bests best days are behind him

bilston

Buer wrote: »

Bit of a disappointing showing although I thought the expectation was completely over the top. The bookies had us at 18 point favourites which I thought was absurd. Losing Henshaw hurt us in defence although Argentina are great at creating space in midfield through quick hands and moving the point of attack. Aki was excellent and was probably my MOTM alongside POM, though. Neither were perfect and made some notable errors but both really stepped up with some big moments at important times.

I'm not surprised by Addison's showing at all. I was saying that he was a very likely RWC squad member two months ago and I think a spot is his to lose at this point. His flexibility and intelligence on the ball gives him a huge edge. Chris Farrell is the likely man to miss out given his complete lack of game time. He's in a race to make the 6N squad at this point.

The line out is a huge concern. That was very poor. Argentina defended it brilliantly and deserve more credit than they're getting but there were undoubtedly a couple of throws that were handy enough to disrupt and you'd be looking for better hands from some of our jumpers also at times. I think Best's jersey is going to be under huge pressure now and, whilst I expect him to get the nod next week, I think he needs to put in a very good showing to keep the wolves from the door.

SOB is brutally unlucky. I would expect him to be out of the 6N now and that puts him at a real disadvantage for the RWC squad where there's going to be an odd man out from the 3 opensides. If VDF and Leavy stay fit, they're now in the driving seat. On the topic of Leavy, if he had actually played more than 45 minutes, he was a shoe in for man of the match.

Sexton will need to up his game again. Goal kicking (conversion aside) was very good which is a positive but his general attacking play was not up to scratch. He'll be disappointed with himself but he's so far ahead of the others that he still couldn't be removed until the game was essentially over.

NZ won't be worried at all. Hopefully the physicality and conditions of Twickenham will have taken a little spring out of their step....but I really doubt it.

Best will come under pressure, but some of the lineout losses clearly has nothing to do with his throwing, the MOTM (who was excellent the second half) was responsible for one and arguably two (maybe joint responsibility with Henderson for one close to the Argentina line).

I think we looked a lot more accurate in the final quarter last night, if we bring that level next week, get Kearney, Henshaw and Ringrose back, start Toner to strengthen the lineout and the attacking maul, added to the inevitable raising of the game that playing NZ brings...then I think we have a chance.

pickarooney

Crazy that England wouldn't cap Addison and are making do with the unimpressive Te'o. Too much scouting abroad and missing what's under their noses? (I know scouting abroad is exactly how we got Addison!)

flazio

I was out at a family do yesterday so I went looking on Sky catch up. RTÉ hasn't put the match up but Channel 4 have. Did Channel 4 just take RTÉ commentary?

bilston

flazio wrote: »

I was out at a family do yesterday so I went looking on Sky catch up. RTÉ hasn't put the match up but Channel 4 have. Did Channel 4 just take RTÉ commentary?

No, Ryle Nugent doesn't work for RTE anymore. C4 have him doing the Ireland games and Miles Harrison doing the European games with Jamie Heaslip (he is very good) as co commentator

Buer

Buer wrote: »

NZ won't be worried at all. Hopefully the physicality and conditions of Twickenham will have taken a little spring out of their step....but I really doubt it.

I thought the top two teams in the world looked like they were playing with half a mind on the following week. The All Blacks failed to play the conditions and England rattled them early in much the same way Argentina rattled us.

I could easily see England struggling against an Argentinian performance like that and ultimately we looked more convincing in our win despite failing to take our chances. All Blacks barely fired a shot for significant chunks of that game and an extremely harsh call was the difference between a narrow win and a deserved loss.

I think we're going to hump them next week, you heard it here first

Mookie Blaylock

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I thought the top two teams in the world looked like they were playing with half a mind on the following week. The All Blacks failed to play the conditions and England rattled them early in much the same way Argentina rattled us.

I could easily see England struggling against an Argentinian performance like that and ultimately we looked more convincing in our win despite failing to take our chances. All Blacks barely fired a shot for significant chunks of that game and an extremely harsh call was the difference between a narrow win and a deserved loss.

I think we're going to hump them next week, you heard it here first

I think we're going to get creamed... Sexton of yesterday... No Murray... that's my nightmare scenario

Granny15

Deleted User wrote: »

Chill out there Suspicious Minds, there is an episode of South Park that became an internet meme. In the episode kids were using a slur most commonly directed at gay people to describe this loud annoying gang of bikers that kept coming into town.

When the kids got in trouble over it, the joke of the episode was that the kids didn't realise it was a homophobic slur, they just thought it was something to call people who are being jerks.

It was relevant to the post I quoted, and a joke. I doubt Trump would have gotten it either!

What do you watch that sh1te for. I thought I’d noticed a sick element creeping into your posts. That sh1te wears off on you.

Granny15

boredatwork82 wrote: »

The Irish lineout has been very hit and miss over the last few years. I remember reading an article about how the Irish lineout was the worst in the six Nations for awhile, but I they got it sorted.

I am not sure it is down to just Rory Best, but a combination of factors including a lack of movement and pace.
It is also important to remember that Rory Best is 36. At some point age will start catching up with him. But if are lineout is as bad as it was today we will get our holes opened on Saturday.

Regarding Larmour, if Kearney is not fit I assume he will start. Joe tends not to make mad radical changes. I think some people on forums like this don't realise the amount of specific details all the positions go into and their roles in the system in Joe's Ireland. I would highly doubt Addison has enough time in the system to be learning two roles to satisfy Joe that he can play there. He is our 5th choice centre. But Larmour is not taking his opportunities. Granted the Irish back play is horrendous and doesn't give him the same space and chances he gets in Leinster, but I would expect him to do better. He is beginning to look like a player who is class against poor/mediocre opposition, but the step up to top tier teams and he is nullified. I hope I am wrong.

Maybe Joe's system doesn't suit a naturally talented back like Larmour, ala Simon Zebo.

Here’s hoping Kearney stays on in a coaching capacity when he retires. We’ll need to pass on that nous to the next generation of FBs including Larmour

Quint2010

In a way I'm glad we didn't play that well yesterday. It'll make us more focused I believe for next week. We need to meet ge up several years.

Granny15

Former Former wrote: »

The system seems to suit Kearney, Stockdale and Earls fine, Bowe and Trimble before them and in reality it suited Zebo too, Joe just preferred better players.

If Larmour can't fit in, then he's either not ready or not good enough. His problem last night was that he couldn't cope with high balls and the Argies targetted him because of it. That's nothing to do with the system.

My take is that he is trying to sprint to get to kicked balls rather than reading the out half and judging where they will kick. It’s a skill that comes with reading body language and the lineup of the centers then it’s all about covering the ground to get to where the ball is kicked without it touching the ground. Having extra bulk gives the catcher confidence that he won’t get upended in traffic also where I think Rob has an advantage over Jordan who is slight in traffic and gets pushed around.

sydthebeat

Quint2010 wrote: »

We need to meet ge up several years.

Best typo ever

Granny15

bilston wrote: »

Best will come under pressure, but some of the lineout losses clearly has nothing to do with his throwing, the MOTM (who was excellent the second half) was responsible for one and arguably two (maybe joint responsibility with Henderson for one close to the Argentina line).

I think we looked a lot more accurate in the final quarter last night, if we bring that level next week, get Kearney, Henshaw and Ringrose back, start Toner to strengthen the lineout and the attacking maul, added to the inevitable raising of the game that playing NZ brings...then I think we have a chance.

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

prawnsambo

bilston wrote: »

Best will come under pressure, but some of the lineout losses clearly has nothing to do with his throwing, the MOTM (who was excellent the second half) was responsible for one and arguably two (maybe joint responsibility with Henderson for one close to the Argentina line).

I think we looked a lot more accurate in the final quarter last night, if we bring that level next week, get Kearney, Henshaw and Ringrose back, start Toner to strengthen the lineout and the attacking maul, added to the inevitable raising of the game that playing NZ brings...then I think we have a chance.

I haven't looked at each of the lineouts again, but one of them we lost seemed to have been because they got their jumper in the air marginally quicker than us and in front of the target man. This was in their own 22. They also seemed to be jumping into the gap and almost into our side. Which would suggest that they closed the gap just before the throw. I'd need to look at it again, but that was my impression at the time.

Granny15

Granny15 wrote: »

What do you watch that sh1te for. I thought I’d noticed a sick element creeping into your posts. That sh1te wears off on you.

:pac:

Squidgy Black

I forgot how much I loved the international window. When rugby and AH collide.

WillieMason

Granny15 wrote: »

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

He is not up to it

WillieMason

Try_harder wrote: »

Its not. I think you are looking for reasons to be offended

no i just dont like the caption not showing me respect its like him playing for nz and standing up in the middle of haka cause his dance is better.

irishbucsfan

Squidgy Black wrote: »

I forgot how much I loved the international window. When rugby and AH collide.

To be fair its been a fairly rocky start but you have to allow these guys time to get up to speed. Between the international windows their involvement is fairly minimal, really apart from major club rugby events towards the end of the season. You can't expect them to turn up around the first international of the season and just "get it" straight away, there's always going to be a period of finding their feet again. I'm really excited to see how they go next week after the NZ game once they've had a bit more time.

WillieMason

Deleted User wrote: »

Zzzzzzz

you vote for brexit?

Quint2010

sydthebeat wrote: »

Best typo ever

It wasn't a typo...

Squidgy Black

irishbucsfan wrote: »

To be fair its been a fairly rocky start but you have to allow these guys time to get up to speed. Between the international windows their involvement is fairly minimal, really apart from major club rugby events towards the end of the season. You can't expect them to turn up around the first international of the season and just "get it" straight away, there's always going to be a period of finding their feet again. I'm really excited to see how they go next week after the NZ game once they've had a bit more time.

I think there's a real sense of cohesion starting to build within the group after last night's performance, I can only expect to see them at full strength against the all blacks.

Clegg

Furlong's really making the most out of this tighthead playmaking role. He was used as a link man quite a few times yesterday. Think we'll see him playing a lot more direct next week.

Try_harder

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

WillieMason

WillieMason wrote: »

you vote for brexit?

Yes

Diabhal Beag

Try_harder wrote: »

Aki Anderson solid

You really do have to respect Willie Anderson's comeback from a 20+ year retirement on 20 minutes notice to be played out of position.

WillieMason

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes

good luck then bye bye

WillieMason

Try_harder wrote: »

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

larmour too small.marmion playing the way joe told him

MarinersBlues

Try_harder wrote: »

Views on yesterday? Marmion too slow, Larmour to inexperienced. Ryan Furlong O Mahony all v good. Aki Anderson solid. Best past his best

Larmour is an exceptional winger not a full back.

Marmion put in a massive defensive shift in the first half and scored a smart try.
His passing was not exceptional but not terrible.
Joe has always seemed to put a lot of value on Marmion's defensive capabilities.

Deusexmachina

Granny15 wrote: »

Still not convinced James Ryan can function a lineout to international level yet. He always has 2/3 dodgy takes and sometimes loses altogether.

Sorry but wtf? First you have completely dismissed Larmour and now you are doubting Ryan.

Larmour had a mixed game - some good and some bad - against excellent oppositon on a tough night. He is a brilliant player and will get even better with experience.

Ryan is superb - leave him alone.

prawnsambo

MarinersBlues wrote: »

Larmour is an exceptional winger not a full back.

Marmion put in a massive defensive shift in the first half and scored a smart try.
His passing was not exceptional but not terrible.
Joe has always seemed to put a lot of value on Marmion's defensive capabilities.

Yeah, he's a very good defender and has a really good tackle technique. Also smart at taking the right option when takinig the ball on himself. Not something he was particularly good at early in his career, would often run up blind alleys and get turned over. The only criticism I'd have now is that his pass can often be a bit 'floaty' which gives me the sweats about getting intercepted.

flange888

We should listen to ourselves sometimes... hated the way the media kinda commented on last night's game as a disappointing performance, its like they expected the team to show up and hammer Argentina...Argentina are a quality side and a 28-17 win against any top tier team is a good win especially in the prevailing conditions

Dubinusa

How fortunes change in a week!! Last week Larmour was the resurrection of Christ, this week he's Brian Cowen.
Larmour has 1 yr of professional rugby under his belt. He's been sensational! He will improve with time as will Stockdale and Carberry. He is not the finished product.
Remember the qf at the last rwc? How Argentina got wide and exposed RK and DK.
I remember RK and stockdale got razzed for Thomas' try in the 6nations past. All players have some vulnerability. Larmour is young enough to fix his. Maybe, he is not the best option at fb now, but he will improve. We do not get gems coming through like Larmour. He was Brilliant in the 6nations. He was exceptional for Leinster last season and is playing superbly this year.
SOB is too much of a risk imo, at this stage. He's played little rugby over the past 3 yrs and his physical health is a crapshoot. He's played maybe 3 or 4 games in a row and then he's out with injury for months. I think he's a waste of a pick going forward as he would be a doubt to get through the rwc healthy. It's probably time to give VDF or Leavy the jersey.

prawnsambo

flange888 wrote: »

We should listen to ourselves sometimes... hated the way the media kinda commented on last night's game as a disappointing performance, its like they expected the team to show up and hammer Argentina...Argentina are a quality side and a 28-17 win against any top tier team is a good win especially in the prevailing conditions

To be fair, it's not because we didn't run away with it or hammer Argentina. It was the many errors that were made, especially in the first half. I'll give Argentina credit for the lineout problems, because they competed well there, but we had some poor defensive errors and especially for their try when we had two front rows as the last two defenders on the leftt and they were too far infield. That was a bad error in defensive organisation. A lot of silly errors when we really should be ramping up performances towards the ABs game.


On the other hand, there was a lot of time lost going to Chicago and back, so perhaps that was a factor.

Granny15

Deusexmachina wrote: »

Sorry but wtf? First you have completely dismissed Larmour and now you are doubting Ryan.

Larmour had a mixed game - some good and some bad - against excellent oppositon on a tough night. He is a brilliant player and will get even better with experience.

Ryan is superb - leave him alone.

I questioned the reasons for Larmour mediocrity in sweeping up high balls. I didn’t write him off in fact contrary to many posters on here I believe his future to be at full back. As for Ryan our lineout creaks a lot when he plays. All I’m saying is that a players position shouldn’t be solidified if they can’t do the core nuts and bolts of their job to perfection.

Granny15

Dubinusa wrote: »

How fortunes change in a week!! Last week Larmour was the resurrection of Christ, this week he's Brian Cowen.
Larmour has 1 yr of professional rugby under his belt. He's been sensational! He will improve with time as will Stockdale and Carberry. He is not the finished product.
Remember the qf at the last rwc? How Argentina got wide and exposed RK and DK.
I remember RK and stockdale got razzed for Thomas' try in the 6nations past. All players have some vulnerability. Larmour is young enough to fix his. Maybe, he is not the best option at fb now, but he will improve. We do not get gems coming through like Larmour. He was Brilliant in the 6nations. He was exceptional for Leinster last season and is playing superbly this year.
SOB is too much of a risk imo, at this stage. He's played little rugby over the past 3 yrs and his physical health is a crapshoot. He's played maybe 3 or 4 games in a row and then he's out with injury for months. I think he's a waste of a pick going forward as he would be a doubt to get through the rwc healthy. It's probably time to give VDF or Leavy the jersey.

Agreed on SOB. He’s out for the foreseeable but I think Leavy offers more to Ireland than even VDF with his tackle stats and gain line breaking carries. Leavy just raises his game for Ireland in a way you can’t measure in stats.

joseywhales

Granny15 wrote: »

Agreed on SOB. He’s out for the foreseeable but I think Leavy offers more to Ireland than even VDF with his tackle stats and gain line breaking carries. Leavy just raises his game for Ireland in a way you can’t measure in stats.

Ah I think you just play whomever is available based on their form and ability. Noone can avoid a broken arm in a tackle, it wasn't a reoccurrence of a long term injury thank God. Backrows are dropping like flies , you need about 8 in total to maintain a season.

Deusexmachina

Granny15 wrote: »

I questioned the reasons for Larmour mediocrity in sweeping up high balls. I didn’t write him off in fact contrary to many posters on here I believe his future to be at full back. As for Ryan our lineout creaks a lot when he plays. All I’m saying is that a players position shouldn’t be solidified if they can’t do the core nuts and bolts of their job to perfection.

Fair enough on Larmour (though I question the term 'mediocrity'). But you are being harsh on Ryan. He is absolutely outstanding. Last night our lineout catchers included O'Brien, Henderson, O'Mahony, Stander, Ryan (Toner and Leavy).. not fair to blame it all on Ryan. Best is far from a great line out thrower also.

Anyway, even if Ryan is not the line out operator that Toner is (for obvious reasons), his workrate, ball handling, tackling, carrying and running are exemplary and more than justify his claim to the shirt as a first choice.