Shotgun 2020

Swashbuckler

shotgunmcos wrote:

Tuesday 7 May Recovery and a note on Hansons

Great post. Will bookmark that one.

zico10

Fantastic race, Mike. Well done. Sub 3 just won't cut it in Dublin now.

Huzzah!

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Would I use Hansons again?
Sure why not! Its simple and rhythmic which I like but perhaps too simple for some. It means early mornings which is not for everyone. This is not the plan for the weekend warrior! I'd not necessarily change the LR approach other than to bring some "stuff" into the 16m LR like progression or MP reps.

Informative note - thanks.

Luke Humphreys (who writes the Hanson plans) did a couple of podcasts on the long run recently, that you might find interesting:

https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/marathon-long-runs-part-1/
https://lukehumphreyrunning.com/marathon-long-run-part-2/

shotgunmcos

zico10 wrote: »

Fantastic race, Mike. Well done. Sub 3 just won't cut it in Dublin now.

Cheers A. True, but I have a different outlook on marathons now

Thanks podcast links Huzzah! I'll check them out for something to do while I'm not running.

I don't know what is worse, taper madness or recovery madness

Abhainn

That was a mighty read Mike. Congrats again. Delighted for you

bryangiggsy

Mike curious did you take on much nutrition during the race?

EC1000

Great race and report MCOS, well done.

shotgunmcos

bryangiggsy wrote: »

Mike curious did you take on much nutrition during the race?

Nothing unusual Bryan. 4x GU caffeine gels (which I practiced eating without water in training) and a couple of High5 Zero tabs dissolved in water to keep cramp at bay.

shotgunmcos

Thursday 9 May
30min Row

Had to dust it off before a first go on it this year. Steady at 20 strokes per minute and 7,258m completed. The Concept 2 Erg kicks your ass, particularly if you haven't sat on it for months. Some more stretching.

Friday 10 May
Recovery 4.87m @9:10

After spending the last 4 days steadily gaining weight I needed to move. I walked in and out of work yesterday and this morning no problem. It looked lovely and sunny out but still bloody chilly and I got caught in hailstones, seriously! The body in general was ok but the left quad and hip flexor that went through all the pain are still a little tender. This was too soon. I'll stick with the rower, walking and just stop eating crap! Apart from that I've been sleeping in until 8am which has been wonderful. Lots of cancelled meetings at work the last 2 days so I've been doodling a plan. Perhaps if Limerick was the end of a series of marathon blocks I'd be sick of looking at plans but I had to write down what I learned and what I'd change etc.

The Next Block (Recovery)
Get the legs back running easy over the next 2 weeks and then start adding volume. I hope to do a Parkrun but the main aim will be to get back up to base mileage by the End of May

The Plan (DCM Block)
I'll start the DCM block in June after a holiday with Caz and the kids. Overall I'm sticking with the Hanson Method and progressing the advanced plan. The first few weeks of the plan its mainly easy so I'll look to do another Parkrun or a 10k.

No Change
The format of Tuesday, Thursday and Sunday SOS. It was a challenging enough pattern as is but worked.

The approach to DCM (apart from a tune up half marathon). I won't fixate on a specific target. I may never do for a race again actually. I'll put in a block of training and run my best on the day. What that produces is what will be. Of course I'll have a feel for what target pace to train at by mid program and a what that will translate to for a goal marathon pace.

The Minor changes
Tempo (MP) target pace will be 5-10 seconds faster
Speed and Strength target pace will be 5-10 seconds faster
Recovery pace will be 20 seconds slower

Basically hard gets a little harder and easy gets easier to balance the force

The Major Changes
Charleville Half Marathon half way through the race specific phase
The last Block was all work and no play! Worth it of course but I don't want to do another 18 weeks of just training. Plus, sub3 is in the bag and the pressure is off!

Increasing overall weekly mileage - Overall I averaged 50mpw over the 18 weeks but missed the bones of 10% of the plan. My last 6 weeks were 65mpw which was new territory for me. Not a huge jump to 70-75mpw but I'll do it slowly.

Adding strides or short hill reps to easy runs. To spicy them up without risking more intensity than necessary.

Longer and more frequent LRs and some "Stuff" in LRs. - I added stuff to the LRs in the advanced plan already and its something I always did back when I was last run fit. The main thing will be more frequent LRs but keeping them within 25% of the overall weekly mileage and capping at 2.5hrs max. The Advanced plan was proof that you don't need as many so I'll happily bin one of it stretches to overreaching territory.

Finally
I've achieved my 2 A Goals for the year already. The B goals are getting close to other PBs so I have benchmarks for next Spring with a winter base behind me. I feel blessed to go 4 months without injury, I will need to bring in S&C and be disciplined enough to step back whenever I need to stay that way for the rest of the year.

martyboy48

Longer and more frequent LRs and some "Stuff" in LRs. - I added stuff to the LRs in the advanced plan already and its something I always did back when I was last run fit. The main thing will be more frequent LRs but keeping them within 25% of the overall weekly mileage and capping at 2.5hrs max. The Advanced plan was proof that you don't need as many so I'll happily bin one of it stretches to overreaching territory.

How much longer and how frequent are you thinking??
Are you talking full on LR or MLR??

Just curious, that paragraph raised my eyebrow

shotgunmcos

martyboy48 wrote: »

How much longer and how frequent are you thinking??
Are you talking full on LR or MLR??

Just curious, that paragraph raised my eyebrow

Sup Marty! Any wounds from that fall?
How much longer? Longer than 16m and capped at 2.5hrs

How frequent? The advanced plan had a LR every other week with 10m/10m on weekends between. I actually did 4 weeks in a row as
14m with 2m,3m,5m MP
18m steady
16m easy
18m steady with fast last mile

I'll do a LR most weeks. The MP tempo midweek will still be priority

LR or MLR? LR and some with stuff. Not quite the 22m with 14MP that P&D prescribe but definitely some progression or M. Midweek sessions are practically MLRs themselves

Murph_D

Pace adjustments seem like major rather than minor changes. What’s the reasoning?

shotgunmcos

Murph_D wrote: »

Pace adjustments seem like major rather than minor changes. What’s the reasoning?

Firstly I wouldnt be targeting faster paces from the outset. I see it as a more natural progression of getting fitter, recovering faster and having more in the tank to push harder within the same heart rate zones.

That's a significant enough change as sustaining faster paces ultimately translates to improved performance. Trying to do that in the existing Hansons Advanced plan would push the cumulative fatigue over the brink. I didn't want the main change to be, do the same hard plan, harder!

To hit the reps and tempo harder I just can't carry the same fatigue forward (at least without a better base) Hence the reasoning for the slower recovery paced runs.

The LRs will not just be more frequent. I'll do the Saturday easy run at a steady aerobic ahead of a straight steady LR as per the Limerick plan. However an easier easy Saturday ahead of a Sunday LR with stuff in it will feature too and that will carry more fatigue into the following week. Messing with LRs is a major departure from the 3x16m steady approach.

70mpw will also be new territory for me, hence a major change. It's got to fit into a busy life.

shotgunmcos

Quick thought. I bumped into a mate at Disney on ice yesterday. Great to talk about something else amongst the Disney marathon that the day was. Anyway he is a Krusty/Zico standard runner and his main advice was to hit hard, really hard and do easy, really easy. How often does this pop up on this forum?!

shotgunmcos

Sunday 12 May
Row 10,000m in 44:02
Recovery 5.5m @9:02, hr 133, time 49:39
Core & Flexibility 30mins

A steady aerobic row on the decking under the sun. I had the wonderboom blasting beats and a chilly easterly wind to keep cool. Low rate 19spm, enough for 2 of the 4 blisters on my right fingers to open, one of which peeled off.

Change of shoes and straight out for a very easy run around the Raheen Industrial Estate. The legs felt good. Tight spots on my left hip and right lower calf. I'm going to book into the physio for a session to flush out the legs and suss out the calf. It's pretty tight when I get up in the morning but loosens out quickly and doesn't impact running. It's a niggle I've had for over a month and the marathon didn't make it any worse. Could be a knot but I want to sort it before the start of the DCM block.

Running back home and over the flyover I noticed a faint crescent moon in the blue sky. I also noticed for the first time, 3 separate church steeples across Limerick when I am on top of the flyover. Mad how I have not noticed that before on my bread n butter route. The things you see when running slow!

Straight onto the mat for 10mins intensive core and 20min's stretching. Feeling good. I stepped on the scale at 79.5kg this morning. It..will..not hit..80. Back to the runners diet!

Swashbuckler

If you're ever out around Raheen at 12 or 1pm during the week give me a shout. Would be happy to run with you.

shotgunmcos

Swashbuckler wrote: »

If you're ever out around Raheen at 12 or 1pm during the week give me a shout. Would be happy to run with you.

Thanks P and for sure. I rarely get to the Industrial Park on lunch runs as its nearly 3m just to get there. I'll give you a shout if I plan to do something longer or if I'm working from home

shotgunmcos

Monday 13 May
Easy 6.08m @8:47, hr 130, time 53:24

It would be a sin not to run on a day like today. A bit windy but warm and sunny. I opted for my favourite lunchtime route around the Island and the quays. Body OK. Nice and easy. The last mile back up town, up Carey's road and the long drag up to Roboro into a wind is tough but a good way to end a good run

eyrie

I've only just managed to read your report from Limerick and wanted to add to the congratulations! A gripping read and a fantastic result. Really enjoyed your write up of it, you give a great insight into your thought process at every stage. Sounds like the focused thinking helped? Beautifully run, and I love that you ran it with your friend and ended up finishing together too. Sub 3!!

shotgunmcos

eyrie wrote: »

I've only just managed to read your report from Limerick and wanted to add to the congratulations! A gripping read and a fantastic result. Really enjoyed your write up of it, you give a great insight into your thought process at every stage. Sounds like the focused thinking helped? Beautifully run, and I love that you ran it with your friend and ended up finishing together too. Sub 3!!

Thank you eyrie! Glad you enjoyed it. Yes the focused thinking helped. I knew every mile of the course which helped a lot to break it down into planned chunks and focus on each chunk in turn. Some had hills, some had gels, some had focus on specific things like maintaining HR zone etc... It worked a treat and I'll take the same approach for DCM. I won't have the same opportunity to explore the course but Boards is fantastic for having detailed reports that I can study. I'll run some bits of it when I travel up for work. All helps to break the 26.2m down to manageable chunks!

shotgunmcos

Tuesday 14 May
10,000m Row in 42:03, hr 141
10mins core
20mins flexibility

Early morning. Sat on the erg yawning for a bit then started. Low controlled rate (19spm) but a little laboured. My hands were so sweaty I could barely grip the handle for the last 2k. Open blisters not happy about that. The hands will toughen up soon.

The 10mins core. Sounds so small and innocent.
10x 50sec on 10sec off. Various dynamic plank and ab exercises. Growling on some. Kids thought I was imitating a lion about to pounce. They are obsessed with The Lion King. Long stretches afterwards.

I thought about heading out for a short run in this lovely evening but a bit tired and this is week 2 of recovery.

shotgunmcos

Wednesday 15 May
Recovery 4.87m @8:42, hr 128, time 42:24
30mins row, 7,186m, hr 132

Tired indeed. Put the kids to bed and went off to bed myself last night. Slept 10 glorious hours! Physio then first thing this morning. My hamstring flexibility has improved surprisingly enough. Quads and hips ok. Calves were a bit knotted and that meant pain. He tried to chat rugby with me to distract me but mother it hurt. Tender today but hopefully the legs feel fresh and bouncy by the weekend.

Another brick session after work. A brick is something I did often in my triathlon days. A bike session followed immediately with a run. The purpose was to get used to running initially with jelly legs.

The run was nice and easy up and around the Raheen Industrial Estate again. Used heart rate to control the effort. Nice evening but that wind sure is cool. Nice run too ruined by the sheer volume of cigarette butts I noticed. I picked 10 of them up out of my driveway before I set out blown in by the wind. Disgusting habit. I abhor smoking and this habit really annoys me.

Straight onto the rower at home. Not for jelly legs but just to continue the aerobic session off my feet, building the core. An easy short controlled 20spm out on the decking.

shotgunmcos

Thursday 16 May
10,000m Row in 41:57, hr 139
5.87m Easy Run @8:38, hr 135

The row was early morning as the house slept. Easy low rate 20 spm but didn't feel as easy as outside in the cool wind yesterday. The cardiac drift was faster. At about the half hour at the end of the stroke, a muscle in my lower left back suddenly "went" with a jolt of pain. It felt ok a few strokes later and I finished out.

The run was a lovely easy afternoon wander around town and a few old narrow Limerick streets I have never set foot upon. Still slow enough to observe city life but a smidge quicker than recovery effort. The lower back is just a bit stiff from that jolt this morning so some stretching and a heat patch later.

aquinn

Morning,

I was over at the gym yesterday and noticed they have upgraded gym equipment. They now have the Concept 2 rower. I know you highly recommend. Would you have tips for technique and what to aim for for starting out?

Thanks

shotgunmcos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

aquinn wrote: »

Morning,

I was over at the gym yesterday and noticed they have upgraded gym equipment. They now have the Concept 2 rower. I know you highly recommend. Would you have tips for technique and what to aim for for starting out?

Thanks

Hi aquinn yes its a brilliant XC workout. I'd highly recommend taking some time to get used to the technique with some slow deliberately light rowing (like you would with a physio or when learning a new run drill). Even stop at different points of the stroke and check your posture. The top tip I'd rank above all others below is: Your hip hinges, your back does NOT bend. much.

Hopefully the video below renders here for you as its a good breakdown of the stroke.

The sequence is: 1. legs, 2. back, 3. arms, 4. arms, 5. back, 6. legs

1. Legs
Generally pulling the handle is not the hardest to understand. The most common mistake is people pull with their arms (thinking rowing is an upper body sport like paddling). This crates a short stroke, doesn't use the power of the legs enough and you tire quicker as arms are smaller muscles.
Tip A: Keep your arms locked out as you pull until your legs are finished their drive. This will optimize the power in your legs and most of the stroke.
Tip B: The shoulders and legs pull at the same time. If your butt is sliding back before your legs you are not pulling with both simultaneously and your posture will fall forward putting pressure on your lower back.

2. Back
As your legs drive (and you are pulling the handle with straight arms at shoulder level) your hip hinge starts to open. This is where you engage your back.
Tip: Keep good upright posture. If you slump (as I did yesterday morning) you will put all the pressure on your lower back.

3. Arms when your legs drive is done and your hip has opened you finish by pulling the arms into your lower ribs.
Tip: keep your elbows close to your body and "finish" with the handle at your sternum.

4. Arms The stroke is done, time to recover with the mirror of what you did on the drive. Release your hands away from your body first, holding your finish body position.

5. Back Your hand should be out over your knees before you break your straightened leg. Pivot your hip closed again and reach your hands over your knees. This is called your reach.
Tip: keep your body position. Its only and arm/shoulder reach and pivot wit the hip. When tired this is the first thing to go. Your hands are slow to release and release lower too and likely bash of your knees as you bend them before your hands reach them.

6. Legs Hold that reach position! Then break the knees and slide forward. Mind your hamstrings as they are pulling you forward now. Don't rush them!
Tip: The "slide" is where you control your rate. So if you are trying to drop form 30spm to 20spm, you slow your slide forward

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai64EEexI0I

aquinn

shotgunmcos wrote: »

Hi aquinn yes its a brilliant XC workout. I'd highly recommend taking some time to get used to the technique with some slow deliberately light rowing (like you would with a physio or when learning a new run drill). Even stop at different points of the stroke and check your posture. The top tip I'd rank above all others below is: Your hip hinges, your back does NOT bend. much.

Hopefully the video below renders here for you as its a good breakdown of the stroke.

The sequence is: 1. legs, 2. back, 3. arms, 4. arms, 5. back, 6. legs

1. Legs
Generally pulling the handle is not the hardest to understand. The most common mistake is people pull with their arms (thinking rowing is an upper body sport like paddling). This crates a short stroke, doesn't use the power of the legs enough and you tire quicker as arms are smaller muscles.
Tip A: Keep your arms locked out as you pull until your legs are finished their drive. This will optimize the power in your legs and most of the stroke.
Tip B: The shoulders and legs pull at the same time. If your butt is sliding back before your legs you are not pulling with both simultaneously and your posture will fall forward putting pressure on your lower back.

2. Back
As your legs drive (and you are pulling the handle with straight arms at shoulder level) your hip hinge starts to open. This is where you engage your back.
Tip: Keep good upright posture. If you slump (as I did yesterday morning) you will put all the pressure on your lower back.

3. Arms when your legs drive is done and your hip has opened you finish by pulling the arms into your lower ribs.
Tip: keep your elbows close to your body and "finish" with the handle at your sternum.

4. Arms The stroke is done, time to recover with the mirror of what you did on the drive. Release your hands away from your body first, holding your finish body position.

5. Back Your hand should be out over your knees before you break your straightened leg. Pivot your hip closed again and reach your hands over your knees. This is called your reach.
Tip: keep your body position. Its only and arm/shoulder reach and pivot wit the hip. When tired this is the first thing to go. Your hands are slow to release and release lower too and likely bash of your knees as you bend them before your hands reach them.

6. Legs Hold that reach position! Then break the knees and slide forward. Mind your hamstrings as they are pulling you forward now. Don't rush them!
Tip: The "slide" is where you control your rate. So if you are trying to drop form 30spm to 20spm, you slow your slide forward

https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/training/technique-videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ai64EEexI0I

WOW, thank you very much.

shotgunmcos

Saturday 18 May
6.5m Easy @8:07, 52:47, hr 137
12,500m Row in 52:21, hr 139

I took Friday off. Days off will be few and far between when I get back into it. Nice run out of suburbia and a few country miles before looping back to suburbia. Went by heart rate with a 140 cap for control. The legs were a little creaky starting but felt better for a finish. Plenty of energy today.

About an hour to the row. Visitors in and out. Had the Concept 2 set up outside again. Wonderboom beats and a steady 19-20spm for a total of 1,043 strokes. Managed to get 10 minutes further than the first sessions during the week before the cardiac drift hit the top of the base aerobic cap.

shotgunmcos

Subday 19 May
Easy 8.14m @7:56, hr 134

I set a goal to run for an hour finding the 3 church steeples around town I noticed from a distance recently. Nice day for running. The first steeple, The Redemtorist was close by, bells tolling loudly for midday mass. I headed out by the river to take in Thomond Park and the Treaty Stone approach to the next one. It was a busy side of town with Cork and Limerick supporters abandoning cars everywhere to head to the Gaelic Grounds for the match.

I felt great aerobically but a bit of a dead left leg made an awkward stride. Not sure how it happened but I was hopping through and over hedges yesterday recovering balls for the kids. I did land heavily jumping off a wall hmm

The next steeple St Marys was actually the church and not the cathedral. It brought me to those narrow older parts of Limerick City again. As I headed back up town I eyed the third steeple of St John's and its impressive presence against the blue sky and white clouds. Ive run up this road a lot and failed to notice the amazing architecture of it. So tall, so ornate but also so narrow like massive grey detailed spear head.

The last mile mostly along Hyde Road, a rough part of town but I like the long gently undulating road. It's wide enough to run on the road and not get in the way of cars, quiet and lined with trees.

65mins very enjoyable running. The quad needs rolling. Overall 30m for the week over 4.5 hours. 3 hours of rowing supplemented that so ready to reduce the rowing a build the mileage back up.

shotgunmcos

Wednesday 22 May
10.66m as 3m wu, 6x400m w/400m recovery, 4m cd

Left quad still dead. I took the last 2 days off because of that and because I extracted one of the black nails probably a week or 2 too early, didn't get it all and it hurts. Wore the Nikes for this which was stupid as they are narrow. Oh well. I figured a shake out might loosen the quad. It didn't.

Meandered over to the Phoenix Park. Lovely evening and lovely to be out running instead of locked in commuter traffic hell. Once I hot 3m I got stuck in. Too stuck in. The plan was run the 400s hard but have enough to jog the recoveries, so I did. The first was up on the toes and over quickly. I knew I overcooked it so settled quicker for the next rep. From there just finished them up the spine of the Park. Overall too hard, or maybe just a lung opener for the first time. Its over 3 months since I did a speed interval.

Reps: 79, 89, 86, 81, 82, 84 - max hr 182 pain cave

Could I have done 6 more as the program will require for the first SOS? Maybe. Drop a few lbs, get the miles up etc. I just need more control. While I was doing them I thought about the BH 5K reports Ive been reading and considered speed reps should be at 5k pace. Could I hold even the slowest one for 5k? hell no! The cool down should have been 3m but I turn right down to Chapelizod, over the bridge and up bloody steep hill to find myself lost :rolleyes: A kind deeply tanned wrinkly local told me I was "miyals" from home but pointed me in the right direction bless her. An extra 1.5m my sore toe did not need.

On the body. Lungs fine, right leg fine, left leg not fine. Just an annoying sore spot on the outside of the quad. I've had it before. Tennis ball might find it.

chickey2

"Could I have done 6 more as the program will require for the first SOS?"

But would you be doing 12*400m at the same speed as this session? What is the recommended 400m split for your plan?