Peter Casey's beliefs of Travellers' ethnicity Part II

Plumbthedepths

Captain Obvious wrote:

Social welfare isn't unique to travellers though. It doesn't address the issues I raised. There are some supports for traveller children but they aren't effective.

Never said it was but linking it to school attendance should force some change. You'll forgive me but you seem to believe no actions should be tried or taken just write off generation after generation.

Captain Obvious

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Never said it was but linking it to school attendance should force some change. You'll forgive me but you seem to believe no actions should be tried or taken just write off generation after generation.

That's the opposite of what I think.

Plumbthedepths

Captain Obvious wrote:

That's the opposite of what I think.

So what's your suggestion, you seem to have gone out of your way to dispute mine. Surely you have an alternative?

shady acres

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I would be of the opinion that most of them never come within a mile of court.

We are talking of those who do. And judges really need to send out a message I agree. But seems to me they don't

judges are the weak link
god help the gardai who waste weeks and weeks for the perps to get a slap on the wrist from some filthy commie pedo judge

shady acres

and another thing
ryan tubridy should be put into a catapult and shot into outerspace

end of the road

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

A start would be applying the laws of the state equally. A traveller child should be required to have the same school attendance as a settled child and not drop out before the legal minutes age. No exception. Easy to enforce by only paying child allowance on production of proof of school attendance. My wife and I had to get our son's school each year to confirm he was attending school for the benefit to be paid. Small step but education is key to breaking a cycle.

the laws of the state are applied equally. however as you may be aware, we currently have a severe shortage of police right now. a traveler child is required to have the same school attendance as a settled child. but again, we don't have enough manpower to get to every single child. only paying child allowance on production of proof of school attendance isn't a way to enforce anything because there are ways to mitagate against it and it doesn't work. you are correct in saying education is key to breaking a cycle but we do have to be realistic as to what we as a small country can do.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So you're happy not to try and incentise a child's school attendance? Education has been shown the world over to break the cycle of proverty and have positive results in crime reduction too. I 'm surprised giving the profession ( unless i read your posts wrong) you are in you don't know this.

the question was how removing child benefit incentivises sending children to education, and yet in answer to it you ask if someone is happy not to incentivise a child attending school in any way. something which was never stated. disagreeing with one method does not mean disagreement with the aim.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So basically you want everyone to accept what you think they should accept as dictated by you. Still having no luck closing the thread huh?

no, just except the basic facts as listed by dav3.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

I find the best way to encourage people to do what is right is through their pocket. I offered a suggestion what's yours or do you think just allow each generation repeat the bs of the pervious?

you may find that the best way to encourage people to do what is right is through their pocket, but out on the ground, that doesn't seem to be working well. that doesn't mean i want to allow each generation to repeat the bs of the previous, but i want to try and prevent it via solutions that have a high likelyhood of working and that have few if any ways around them.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Refusing to send your child to school can also involve a custodial sentence. The laws are there. They need to be enforced. The cycle needs to be broken.

correct however the costs of imposing a custodial sentence in the form of not only the prison costs but temporarily caring for the child should the child need to be in state care i should think are quite high, hence i'd imagine such is only ever used as an ultra-last resort and should realistically be avoided if possible.

end of the road

tayto lover wrote: »

Oh it's a conspiracy alright. It stinks to high Heaven.
I'm just hoping that it remains in people's minds until the next election.
Then we'll see that 10 percent rise a fair bit.
Again Francie, the message is more important than the messenger.

how is it a conspiracy. casey was given a platform and had no solutions to the issues he brought up. that's not a conspiracy.

Discodog wrote: »

You missed the point. We never had a thread like this & most threads were closed

from what i remember that only began happening in the last few years. before hand plenty of traveler threads ran until they died out.

Cupatae wrote: »

Why dont they cut the nonsense, and pandering and actually bring out the facts that they dont want to hear, alot of travellers got there reputations for good reasons, people didnt wake up one morning and randomly decided to dislike them the prejudice a lot of them are complaining about has been well earned by a large part of that community... and yet that is just brushed under the rug and ignored for the sake of political correctness and pandering for votes.

The whole "theres good and bad in every community" doesnt fly with me but it seems to be taken at face value alot of the time and is a go too response, while that is a true statement one could argue there seems to be an epidemic of bad in this community compared to most other communities, these opinions dont just spring up from the ground without any truth at all there is a reason so many people hold the same opinion of the travelling community.

The governments effort to help them should be mirrored by there own effort to help themselves.

prejudice against a whole group of people is never earned. the only people responsible for the prejudice is those who engage in the prejudice. it's only an individual who earns prejudice via their actions. the whole "there is good and bad in every community" will have to fly as it's reality.

maxwell smart wrote: »

I know it was inevitable with such an emotive topic but it seems that both sides of this debate are getting further and further apart.

On one side of the spectrum there is the 'Travellers are all roving bands of thieves, who can't work because they are too busy defrauding the welfare, beating up their spouses, making very poor quality documentaries on their home made fight clubs and organising very flashy communions / weddings etc' people.

On the other side are the 'Travellers never did me a days harm, are an ethnic minority, shouldn't be held to the same rules as the rest of us, marrying their cousins is what they do, no problem with them taking their kids out of education as early as possible, everyone is racist who doesn't agree with me' gang.

The truth lies somewhere in the middle.
There is a large number of them (a majority? I don't know) who are severely disadvantaged. Poor access to education, lack of basic sanitation, malnourishment, high suicide rate, large numbers in prison...all classic signs of being educationally disadvantaged. The only way these are going to become valuable members and contributors is by helping them get that education. I can't believe anyone would question or indeed begrudge them that help.
Then there is the section that carry out severe anti-social behaviour. Drug pushing, extortion, theft, social welfare fraud, intimidation. Again I'm sure that nobody would condone any of that behaviour.

The difficulty is that the anti-social section of this community are much more visible than the other section.

I grew up in a part of Dublin which has a high concentration of travellers and have never had anything but bad experiences with them. But I don't assume that they are all the same. I've grown up a bit maybe. I still wouldn't want any living next door to me, their values are different from mine and we wouldn't be able to get along. That's the truth.

What's needed and what Casey has put on the national agenda, is a frank and open discussion between both communities on how to develop and grow those travellers who want to become members of this society we all like in in Ireland, and how to deal with the criminal element in that community.

If Casey has done anything, he has brought that discussion out into the open, because when thoughts and feelings are hidden away, they fester, become bad, and ripe for exploitation.

So for those who think Casey is the Anti-Christ, and those who think he is the second coming of the Messiah. He's neither, and both.

nobody has ever said that travelers shouldn't be held to the same rules as the rest of us, that marrying their cousins is what they do and is okay, that we have no problem with them taking their kids out of education as early as possible. the truth is very much in the middle i agree, and it's me and other posters who are stating it. i have to disagree that casey has put anything more on the table then what is already being, and what has always been discussed, very openly since discussions on travelers began.

Idbatterim

At least Casey is speaking the truth. I can vaguely recall a time when varadkar used to do that..

I would love to know what percentage of the vote renua would go to with him in the party ...

Plumbthedepths

end of the road wrote:

the laws of the state are applied equally. however as you may be aware, we currently have a severe shortage of police right now. a traveler child is required to have the same school attendance as a settled child. but again, we don't have enough manpower to get to every single child. only paying child allowance on production of proof of school attendance isn't a way to enforce anything because there are ways to mitagate against it and it doesn't work. you are correct in saying education is key to breaking a cycle but we do have to be realistic as to what we as a small country can do.

There're not applied equally.

end of the road wrote:

the question was how removing child benefit incentivises sending children to education, and yet in answer to it you ask if someone is happy not to incentivise a child attending school in any way. something which was never stated. disagreeing with one method does not mean disagreement with the aim.

You seem to have twisted yourself in some knots here.

end of the road wrote:

no, just except the basic facts as listed by dav3.

dav3 posts nonsense not facts, so safe to ignore what he says.

end of the road wrote:

you may find that the best way to encourage people to do what is right is through their pocket, but out on the ground, that doesn't seem to be working well. that doesn't mean i want to allow each generation to repeat the bs of the previous, but i want to try and prevent it via solutions that have a high likelyhood of working and that have few if any ways around them.

What are your solutions so?

end of the road wrote:

correct however the costs of imposing a custodial sentence in the form of not only the prison costs but temporarily caring for the child should the child need to be in state care i should think are quite high, hence i'd imagine such is only ever used as an ultra-last resort and should realistically be avoided if possible.

So do nothing so. Why didn't you say that at the start save you breaking commmets into so many component parts. Bye the way are you on the evening shift? The other lad gone home?

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

At least Casey is speaking the truth.

you mean telling you what you want to hear? that's not "speaking the truth"

Idbatterim wrote: »

I can vaguely recall a time when varadkar used to do that..

I would love to know what percentage of the vote renua would go to with him in the party ...

probably a couple more % then originally voted for them last time. what would be the incentive for large scale votes to transfer to them with casey in the party, especially given they got hardly any vote last time dispite having policies that should on the face of it, appeal to quite a lot of casey's support base?

Plumbthedepths

end of the road wrote:

you mean telling you what you want to hear? that's not "speaking the truth"

Casey said everyone should be treated equally can't see why some would have an issue with that tbh. It's the direct opposite of racism.

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

who are they under orders from? matt cooper works for a private radio station.

Didn't Varadker try to influence the Casey vote public ally?
A nod and wink to an old pal privately gets a lot done too. Favours and all that jazz imo.

end of the road

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

There're not applied equally.

how aren't they?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

You seem to have twisted yourself in some knots here.

how so?

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

dav3 posts nonsense not facts, so safe to ignore what he says.

his post in this thread is a very fair post.

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

What are your solutions so?


So do nothing so. Why didn't you say that at the start save you breaking commmets into so many component parts. Bye the way are you on the evening shift? The other lad gone home?

i'm not saying do nothing, i'm saying the solutions we need to apply must work in terms of achieving the aim, but not negatively effect anyone.

Plumbthedepths

end of the road wrote:

how aren't they?

Self evident

end of the road wrote:

how so?

Try and decide what you said I can't

end of the road wrote:

his post in this thread is a very fair post.

It's not, it's dictatorial bs.

end of the road wrote:

i'm not saying do nothing, i'm saying the solutions we need to apply must work in terms of achieving the aim, but not negatively effect anyone.

So what are those solutions, I offered some. You haven't, when you're ready.

end of the road

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Casey said everyone should be treated equally can't see why some would have an issue with that tbh. It's the direct opposite of racism.

i don't think i said peter casey was racist? i don't believe he is . ill informed, sure.
people are treated equally in ireland. recognising the ethnic status of a minority group doesn't go against that.

Captain Obvious

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

So what's your suggestion, you seem to have gone out of your way to dispute mine. Surely you have an alternative?

Not specifically. I think you'd probably need people with a deeper understanding of child psychology and traveller culture to come up with a complete plan. I do think after schools programs are key though. Not only for retention of the days education but to socialise with non traveller children.

sabat

Just walked past the Teachers Club on Parnell Square, two squad cars, a van, and 6 gardai (that I could see) at the scene of some traveller function - it's 9pm on a Monday.

Plumbthedepths

Captain Obvious wrote:

Not specifically. I think you'd probably need people with a deeper understanding of child psychology and traveller culture to come up with a complete plan. I do think after schools programs are key though. Not only for retention of the days education but to socialise with non traveller children.

I live in a rural location, with a halting site within two miles of my home. The local school is also 2 miles to the halting site. There is a bus service each day bringing the children that 2 miles too school despite the parents having cars. There is also an after-school service. The services are provided it's the attendance that is the issue. The children when in school are reasonably ok with other children but more accute behaviourial issues. The school has a few SNA's to work with these kids but again it still comes down to attendence and the parents realising the importance of an education

Plumbthedepths

end of the road wrote:

i don't think i said peter casey was racist? i don't believe he is . ill informed, sure. people are treated equally in ireland. recognising the ethnic status of a minority group doesn't go against that.

Nice to see someone that disagrees with him admit he is not racist. Refreshing.

maxwell smart

sabat wrote: »

Just walked past the Teachers Club on Parnell Square, two squad cars, a van, and 6 gardai (that I could see) at the scene of some traveller function - it's 9pm on a Monday.

Are you saying they are short numbers?

Plumbthedepths

sabat wrote:

Just walked past the Teachers Club on Parnell Square, two squad cars, a van, and 6 gardai (that I could see) at the scene of some traveller function - it's 9pm on a Monday.

Nice to see them invite the guards to a gathering.

TallyRand

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think i said peter casey was racist? i don't believe he is . ill informed, sure.
people are treated equally in ireland. recognising the ethnic status of a minority group doesn't go against that.

Casey certainly not the slickest operator out there however judging by your posts it seems you’re the ill-informed one out of the two.

I’d be quite sure I’ve crossed paths with more travellers than you and I must be awfully unlucky to have met every bad one, all the lovely ones must go a different place.

Through retail businesses, area I live and a wide network of people with a brain that I encounter it’s a constant bad story when it comes down to the “un-settled” stories that would turn your stomach, getting 5yo’s to rob, animal fighting, bareknuckle fighting.

With a liberal, anti- Casey, pro-traveller media (undeniable) where are the easy to come by “heartwarming” do gooder, positive spin articles and pieces on them? Funny that in the height of hysteria the media darlings don’t even have loads of low hanging fodder!

TallyRand

end of the road wrote: »

i don't think i said peter casey was racist? i don't believe he is . ill informed, sure.
people are treated equally in ireland. recognising the ethnic status of a minority group doesn't go against that.

Casey certainly not the slickest operator out there however judging by your posts it seems you’re the ill-informed one out of the two.

I’d be quite sure I’ve crossed paths with more travellers than you and I must be awfully unlucky to have met every bad one, all the lovely ones must go a different place.

Through retail businesses, area I live and a wide network of people with a brain that I encounter it’s a constant bad story when it comes down to the “un-settled” stories that would turn your stomach, getting 5yo’s to rob, animal fighting, bareknuckle fighting.

With a liberal, anti- Casey, pro-traveller media (undeniable) where are the easy to come by “heartwarming” do gooder, positive spin articles and pieces on them? Funny that in the height of hysteria the media darlings don’t even have loads of low hanging fodder!

tayto lover

end of the road wrote: »

how is it a conspiracy. casey was given a platform and had no solutions to the issues he brought up. that's not a conspiracy.
n.

Casey wasn't even allowed to answer a question on the LLS ( now I have no faith that he could either but that's beside the point. I don't rate him.)
However if you examine the guest list and the planted audience and the fact that Tubridy fired 5 different questions at him in 10 seconds it is clear, to me anyway, that the whole thing was a conspiracy to down Casey.
Even the dipsy one (can't think of her name) tried to down him and has been found out for lying in false tweets since.
It was even worse than what Miriam O' Callaghan tried to do to Martin Mc Guinness in the Presidential debate in 2011.
RTE working on behalf of their political masters once again imo.

end of the road

tayto lover wrote: »

Casey wasn't even allowed to answer a question on the LLS ( now I have no faith that he could either but that's beside the point. I don't rate him.)
However if you examine the guest list and the planted audience and the fact that Tubridy fired 5 different questions at him in 10 seconds it is clear, to me anyway, that the whole thing was a conspiracy to down Casey.
Even the dipsy one (can't think of her name) tried to down him and has been found out for lying in false tweets since.
It was even worse than what Miriam O' Callaghan tried to do to Martin Mc Guinness in the Presidential debate in 2011.
RTE working on behalf of their political masters once again imo.

if a chat show is going to interview someone, then depending on the subject they will have someone of the opposite opinion in the audience or as a guest. that's the nature of the game. that's what happened on the lls. in fact they are likely obligated to do it as part of impartiality rules and expectations. i see no conspiracy here.

Plumbthedepths

end of the road wrote:

if a chat show is going to interview someone, then depending on the subject they will have someone of the opposite opinion in the audience or as a guest. that's the nature of the game. that's what happened on the lls. in fact they are likely obligated to do it as part of impartiality rules and expectations. i see no conspiracy here.

You were definitely watching a different LLS show if you feel the interview and traveller contribution were done in a fair and balanced manner allowing for questions asked to be answered.

Sycamore Tree

end of the road wrote: »

if a chat show is going to interview someone, then depending on the subject they will have someone of the opposite opinion in the audience or as a guest. that's the nature of the game. that's what happened on the lls. in fact they are likely obligated to do it as part of impartiality rules and expectations. i see no conspiracy here.

Seriously how did you convince your brain that you believed this post as you wrote it?
If you cannot see that Tubs interview for the biased setup it was then you are either blind or completely blinkered.

And what other chat shows plant 'someone of the opposite opinion in the audience'? It's not the 'nature of the game'. The point of a chat show is to find out more and more about the interviewee by asking probing questions and letting the person actually answer those questions.

FrancieBrady

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Seriously how did you convince your brain that you believed this post as you wrote it?
If you cannot see that Tubs interview for the biased setup it was then you are either blind or completely blinkered.

And what other chat shows plant 'someone of the opposite opinion in the audience'? It's not the 'nature of the game'. The point of a chat show is to find out more and more about the interviewee by asking probing questions and letting the person actually answer those questions.

Gay Byrne did it all the time. Oldest chat show thing in the book. Ratings my dear boy...ratings.
Not the first time a controversial guest got mauled on a chat show and not the last either.

Plumbthedepths

FrancieBrady wrote:

Gay Byrne did it all the time. Oldest chat show thing in the book. Ratings my dear boy...ratings. Not the first time a controversial guest got mauled on a chat show and not the last either.

He wasn't mauled, but you can keep telling yourself that if you wish. The Travellers came across really poorly, Tubs made a show of himself threatening his guest. "You'll know if I lose control". Maybe you and EOTR were watching a different programme.

FrancieBrady

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

He wasn't mauled, but you can keep telling yourself that if you wish. The Travellers came across really poorly, Tubs made a show of himself threatening his guest. "You'll know if I lose control". Maybe you and EOTR were watching a different programme.

Oh wow, somebody who has been posting anti traveller sentiments for pages and pages thinks the travellers came across really poorly.

I'm shocked! :rolleyes:

It was a curates egg of an interview. Casey was his usual bungling incoherent self, Ryan was a bit rude, and the travellers made some good points and sounded a bit ranty at times.

In terms of coming across as a coherent politician, Casey mauled himself largely, the Phoenix Park stuff is still a bizarre interlude 3 days later.