Are foreign women more approachable than Irish girls?

professore

Shenshen wrote: »

They are when it comes to male-female interaction.
As I said before, back home having friends of both genders is the norm. Going out with a group means talking to and interacting with all members of the group, not just the ones that share your gender.

Here, my observations are that any "mixed" group separates into its male and female components at the first given opportunity on a night out, with the women talking to the women and the men talking to the men.
Anyone trying to cross that will be perceived as "trying to flirt" and expressing a sexual interest.

That's certainly not the norm in Germany at least, or at least not in my personal experience.

This is true. Hadn't really thought of that before. In secondary school this was true for me as I went to an all boys school and knew very few girls. However in college we went out in mixed groups all the time. When I came back "home" it was "the lads" again. Still is many years later. I socialise in mixed groups now mostly.

professore

Anna Chilly Sediment wrote: »

My plans for a fun night out, would as a rule, not feature half an hour of this :pac:

Me neither. I HATE places where the music is so loud you have to shout into someones ear to have a conversation. Whatever about nightclubs, where you can lep around a bit at least, what sort of bull**** is this to do in a pub?

professore

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

In fairness, the plumbers and carpenters I know are making big money at the moment. Much more than many more glamorous jobs. But I get your point.

At the moment, wait for the next crash.

professore

Anna Chilly Sediment wrote: »

That said, the idea that women are stand-offish because they can't be certain of your class is rubbish. You "signal your class" by speaking, wearing clothes, being wherever you are. Not exactly hard to figure out where to slot people after 30 seconds talking to them like.

For some reason your comment made me think of this:



Lots of guys in particular are very good at faking this while others might be socially awkward types in tech with an old t-shirt and jeans making 5 times what the "business mogul" who is actually a minimum wage telesales "exec" bull****ter is making. And "intelligent conversation" is a surefire way of not getting anywhere with most women on a night out. What is meant by "intelligent conversation" is being witty. Not talking about the best bubble sorting algorithms or the pros and cons of the gold standard.

I learned early on the best way to get a shift back in the day was to dumb down your conversation and have some craic.

Mister Vain

One eyed Jack wrote: »

the idea that Irish people tend to gravitate towards people of the same sex when they’re out in groups and don’t mix with the opposite sex? I really don’t know where that’s coming from.

That's generally the way it goes from my experience, at least in the early stages of a night out anyway. They only mix later on when everyone is pissed and the girls start dragging the lads onto the dance floor. It's like the night is not complete without the obligatory dance. I have terrible duck feet though and usually end up stamping on everyone's toes.

One eyed Jack

Mister Vain wrote: »

That's generally the way it goes from my experience, at least in the early stages of a night out anyway. They only mix later on when everyone is pissed and the girls start dragging the lads onto the dance floor. It's like the night is not complete without the obligatory dance. I have terrible duck feet though and usually end up stamping on everyone's toes.

I absolutely haaaate it when girls try to do that! I’m not one for being rude to people, but there’s been a few times alright when a simple ‘nope, I don’t dance, thanks’ is ever going to be good enough for some girls :pac:

Pug160

Anna Chilly Sediment wrote: »

Wouldn't agree that there are no classes in Ireland, though they're probably less rigidly defined and separated than a lot of other countries, and there's less of a spread (i.e. we don't have an aristocracy so it kind of just goes working class, middle class, upper-middle class, Denis O Brien). I've a few acquaintances and family friends who come from wealthy backgrounds and there is a vast gulf between them and working class people. In fact, and more to the point, a few of them are married to foreigners of a similar socio-economic background and not a single one married to an Irish person of a working or lower-middle class background.

The majority of our politicians, civil servants, broadcasters are from wealthy backgrounds (most of our government ministers went to private school, in fact), the majority of the prison population from poor backgrounds. We're not as finicky about it as the brits, it's not as tied up with race as it is in the States but we're no way a classless utopia.

That said, the idea that women are stand-offish because they can't be certain of your class is rubbish. You "signal your class" by speaking, wearing clothes, being wherever you are. Not exactly hard to figure out where to slot people after 30 seconds talking to them like.

There are always plenty of exceptions, but I think a lot of the time like attracts like. It's a continuous cycle which presumably won't change to a large degree. The one thing I would say is that we all live in a society where we at least have the ability to climb the socio-economic ladder. Family support and good fortune play into it but the one, almost essential ingredient is innate ability. I have seen this first hand with my sister who was blessed academically and was then able to make a much better life for herself and also marry a top 5% earner. It's a kind of genetic lottery, and if you win it and you're conscientious you have a decent shot at climbing the ladder.

I'm certainly no fan of elitism and think everyone should be given an equal opportunity. But I do think it's only fair to point out that intelligent parents are probably more likely to have intelligent kids, with the added benefit that the kids will have access to the best education and nutrition and everything else. There certainly seems to be preferential treatment given to people higher up the socio-economic ladder when it comes to custodial sentences. Although part of me wonders if at least part of the reason is that some people are clever enough to avoid being caught, and that those types are less likely to be poor. Money and influence probably play bigger parts in it though.

Spear Chucker

professore wrote: »

And "intelligent conversation" is a surefire way of not getting anywhere with most women on a night out. What is meant by "intelligent conversation" is being witty. Not talking about the best bubble sorting algorithms or the pros and cons of the gold standard.

I learned early on the best way to get a shift back in the day was to dumb down your conversation and have some craic.

This 100%. Even worse is talking about heavy topics like politics or religion. Guaranteed way to kill the vibe. I cringe when I see men do it.

Redneck Culchie

Spear Chucker wrote: »

This 100%. Even worse is talking about heavy topics like politics or religion. Guaranteed way to kill the vibe. I cringe when I see men do it.

Talking politics or religion is not a good idea on nights out unless with friends in a pub. Talking about it while trying to chat someone up would not be a good idea either.

The no politics/religion rule applies x10 on nights out in Belfast or most places up North.

Spear Chucker

Redneck Culchie wrote: »

Talking politics or religion is not a good idea on nights out unless with friends in a pub. Talking about it while trying to chat someone up would not be a good idea either.

The no politics/religion rule applies x10 on nights out in Belfast or most places up North.

I avoid talking politics with women even when in relationships since most women seem to be left wing by default.

Shenshen

professore wrote: »

Lots of guys in particular are very good at faking this while others might be socially awkward types in tech with an old t-shirt and jeans making 5 times what the "business mogul" who is actually a minimum wage telesales "exec" bull****ter is making. And "intelligent conversation" is a surefire way of not getting anywhere with most women on a night out. What is meant by "intelligent conversation" is being witty. Not talking about the best bubble sorting algorithms or the pros and cons of the gold standard.

I learned early on the best way to get a shift back in the day was to dumb down your conversation and have some craic.

I suppose your conversation would really depend on your target.
Personally, I would find someone telling me about bubble sorting algorithms rather fascinating, but then I tend to be on the more quiet, geeky side. Someone trying to be witty for the sake of it would bore me to tears.
But if you're interested in the orange girl with the blonde hair extensions and the Freddie Krueger fake nails, you may indeed want to dumb it down quite a bit

professore

Shenshen wrote: »

I suppose your conversation would really depend on your target.
Personally, I would find someone telling me about bubble sorting algorithms rather fascinating, but then I tend to be on the more quiet, geeky side. Someone trying to be witty for the sake of it would bore me to tears.
But if you're interested in the orange girl with the blonde hair extensions and the Freddie Krueger fake nails, you may indeed want to dumb it down quite a bit

How you doin? Wanna come back to mine and I'll sort your bubbles baby (in the most sleazy voice possible)

I'm willing to bet you wouldn't be in a pub with Nicky Minaj blasting in the foreground. Let's face it after 9PM on a weekend it's impossible to have a conversation in most Irish pubs due to the noise. Unless you smoke. The smoking area is my favourite place even though I don't smoke, at least you can talk to people

Anna Chilly Sediment

Anna Chilly Sediment wrote: »

That said, the idea that women are stand-offish because they can't be certain of your class is rubbish. You "signal your class" by speaking, wearing clothes, being wherever you are. Not exactly hard to figure out where to slot people after 30 seconds talking to them like.

What about... that... girl... whose... daddy... works... for...

Mister Vain

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I absolutely haaaate it when girls try to do that! I’m not one for being rude to people, but there’s been a few times alright when a simple ‘nope, I don’t dance, thanks’ is ever going to be good enough for some girls :pac:

But but... if you don't dance then you're as dry as an African footpath. Actually some people would argue that if you don't dance then you may as well be sitting at home. I just never enjoyed it. I can still have a good night without dancing.

suicide_circus

I only do the kind of dancing you see in period dramas

Church on Tuesday

Mister Vain wrote: »

But but... if you don't dance then you're as dry as an African footpath. Actually some people would argue that if you don't dance then you may as well be sitting at home. I just never enjoyed it. I can still have a good night without dancing.

Just get some drinks into you and you'll be a dancing queen in no time!

Mister Vain

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Just get some drinks into you and you'll be a dancing queen in no time!

No. Even when I'm pissed it still feels wrong. I usually just copy what other people are doing because I haven't a fecking clue. :pac:

Church on Tuesday

Mister Vain wrote: »

No. Even when I'm pissed it still feels wrong. I usually just copy what other people are doing because I haven't a fecking clue. :pac:

Works for me, although I'm not entirely sure you could classify my moves as "dancing" per se...

tylercheribini

I think single sex schooling here has a lot to answer for, being cloistered in an all boys school during my formative years has done irreparable damage to my social skills with the opposite gender anyway.

One eyed Jack

tylercheribini wrote: »

I think single sex schooling here has a lot to answer for, being cloistered in an all boys school during my formative years has done irreparable damage to my social skills with the opposite gender anyway.

When you say cloistered, do you mean educated in an all boys boarding school or something? The average child spends only 20% of the time in a calendar year in the school environment, and 80% outside of the school environment, and study after study shows that parents are their children’s primary influencers, not their school environment, so whatever social skills people think they have as a hangover from their school days, it’s not their education is responsible for that, but other factors outside of their educational environment in childhood.

tylercheribini

One eyed Jack wrote: »

When you say cloistered, do you mean educated in an all boys boarding school or something? The average child spends only 20% of the time in a calendar year in the school environment, and 80% outside of the school environment, and study after study shows that parents are their children’s primary influencers, not their school environment, so whatever social skills people think they have as a hangover from their school days, it’s not their education is responsible for that, but other factors outside of their educational environment in childhood.

I also lived in a rural area,creating further isolation from females. Anecdotally any of my friends that went to mixed gender schools were far more outgoing/confident with women. I acknowledge your citation of studies but I can only speak of my own experiences. To quote a 20% figure for school attendance is quite reductive, it is in this environment where friendships are forged which leads to extra curricular socialising.

Wibbs

If people could stop referring to women as "females" that might help. It's like a frigging nature programme. The female of the species is...

Wibbs

I'm not so sure about the whole single sex school thing. I went to one as did most of my mates. For the leaving cert I went to a mixed school and what I noticed(as did my single sex schooled mates) was that the in general the single sex school guys were more into engaging. Maybe because of the novelty? TO be fair these were all single sex rugger bugger schools, so maybe a sort of confidence, even arrogance was at play too.

One eyed Jack

tylercheribini wrote: »

I also lived in a rural area,creating further isolation from females. Anecdotally any of my friends that went to mixed gender schools were far more outgoing/confident with women. I acknowledge your citation of studies but I can only speak of my own experiences. To quote a 20% figure for school attendance is quite reductive, it is in this environment where friendships are forged which leads to extra curricular socialising.

I did say the average child, on the understanding that of course individuals experiences are going to vary wildly, such as children who are actually cloistered in single sex boarding schools, and even then they have interactions with the opposite sex in terms of extracurricular socialising. It’s very much a swings and roundabouts thing the whole idea of whether single sex or mixed schools are better for children’s personal and social development - in some ways single sex schools are better, in some ways mixed schools are better. For example my own anecdotal experience of children in mixed sex schools is that while they tend to mix with each other better in early life, they tend to be about as interested in academic achievement as each other (that is to say - not a whole lot), and so they tend to end up in lower paid employment - they still mix well with the opposite sex of course (at their own level), but they fall way down in terms of their own personal and social development in other areas as adults, so there is a trade-off there that I wouldn’t feel too bad about.

tylercheribini

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I did say the average child, on the understanding that of course individuals experiences are going to vary wildly, such as children who are actually cloistered in single sex boarding schools, and even then they have interactions with the opposite sex in terms of extracurricular socialising. It’s very much a swings and roundabouts thing the whole idea of whether single sex or mixed schools are better for children’s personal and social development - in some ways single sex schools are better, in some ways mixed schools are better. For example my own anecdotal experience of children in mixed sex schools is that while they tend to mix with each other better in early life, they tend to be about as interested in academic achievement as each other (that is to say - not a whole lot), and so they tend to end up in lower paid employment - they still mix well with the opposite sex of course (at their own level), but they fall way down in terms of their own personal and development in other areas as adults, so there is a trade-off there that I wouldn’t feel too bad about.

I attended a mixed gender primary school, I am speaking of my secondary school life which is obviously a completely different time of life in many ways. Personally I wouldnt have said my primary schooling would have affected me in later life one way or the other if I attended with FEMALES or not.

Wibbs

tylercheribini wrote: »

if I attended with FEMALES or not.

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I get the T, but jaysus, this "females" stuff is straight from the insane, fcuked up American identity politics shite that at best is divisive, at worst is beyond retarded in the way too many sub, or over educated beyond their capacities some 'Mericans can be. Sucked up thirdhand by Irish people like "mooom" and "stooore" and all the other mid Atlantic guff. Seriously T, have an oul search on this very website for the term in this context even five years ago. Feck all to none. Though to be fair the Boards search is not exactly fit for purpose, so...

professore

One eyed Jack wrote: »

study after study shows that parents are their children’s primary influencers, not their school environment.

Study after study shows pretty much the exact opposite. Those earlier studies were flawed. It's hereditary influence that make kids somewhat like their parents (or uncle Billy the black sheep) rather than their parents teachings. Their peer group has a much larger influence. Anyone who has more than one kid or has siblings will be aware how different they can be from each other, even though they have been raised by the same parents.

https://www.truity.com/blog/do-children-inherit-their-parents%E2%80%99-personalities

tylercheribini

Wibbs wrote: »

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I get the T, but jaysus, this "females" stuff is straight from the insane, fcuked up American identity politics shite that at best is divisive, at worst is beyond retarded in the way too many sub, or over educated beyond their capacities some 'Mericans can be. Sucked up thirdhand by Irish people like "mooom" and "stooore" and all the other mid Atlantic guff. Seriously T, have an oul search on this very website for the term in this context even five years ago. Feck all to none. Though to be fair the Boards search is not exactly fit for purpose, so...

God if "female" is now a trigger I give up, to think all the times I used the word I was unwittingly under the trance of insidious Americana. I think you are attributing far more linguistic baggage to the adjective than is there.(from an "over-educated" Masters Degree holder) I take it you're a disciple of Jordan Peterson?

Pug160

One eyed Jack wrote: »

When you say cloistered, do you mean educated in an all boys boarding school or something? The average child spends only 20% of the time in a calendar year in the school environment, and 80% outside of the school environment, and study after study shows that parents are their children’s primary influencers, not their school environment, so whatever social skills people think they have as a hangover from their school days, it’s not their education is responsible for that, but other factors outside of their educational environment in childhood.

The long summer holiday would of course bring any overall figure down, but I don't think it would necessarily lessen the importance of the great deal of time that is spent in school. I had a quick look at the requirements - and it's apparently set at 167 days for secondary pupils in Ireland. There seems to be a fair bit of variation between countries. But the statistics themselves are broken down in lots of ways and are probably too complex to be used as sound bites. I'm sure you know as well as anybody else that statistics can be misleading as well as helpful. All of that being said, I do agree - as I have in the other threads where we have discussed this - that this subject is complicated, and that it is probably foolish to think that there is any kind of one-size-fits-all silver bullet that will benefit everybody.

I think the most sensible approach would probably be to weigh the situation up when the time comes to make the decision. Observational parents might elect to make a choice based what they think the individual child needs, rather than stick to some rigid philosophy. People who feel they missed out by not going to a mixed sex school will probably be more inclined to send their own child there of course, and understandably so. For me personally, I'd probably do it if I felt he had inherited certain traits, and that the consequences of those traits may be lessened to some degree by being in a more balanced environment. It would be a decision made with the best intentions - whether right or wrong. Choices are also limited by location and other factors, so a good mixed school could well be better than a below average same sex school. It's not going to be a decision I'll be making for a very long time (if ever).

tylercheribini

I had this conversation with a friend of mine who attended a well known South Eastern MALE boarding school and from our own experiences we both concurred we would never send our kids to a single sex school.