Immigrant Caravan's WTF?!

wexie

JohnMc1 wrote: »

We're not legally or morally obligated to take in everyone with a sob story [which Europe is finding out with its constant influx of migrants from a Continent that's 3x or more the size of Europe]. Why aren't they marching on their Govts to improve their Countries instead of always rushing to ours?

Legally no, morally....well that's an entirely different debate. Wouldn't take much to argue that a large part of the riches of Europe is founded on Africa's natural resources.

Aside from that though, completely leaving the argument of whether or not we should allow them in.

What do you think is going to happen if all we do is firm up our borders and laws to stop them from getting into Europe or the US?

Will it change anything for the better? Do you think it will stop them from coming?

Or do you think they'll only become more desperate, take larger risks and perhaps commit greater crimes in order to get what they want?

green shoots

JohnMc1 wrote: »

We're not legally or morally obligated to take in everyone with a sob story [which Europe is finding out with its constant influx of migrants from a Continent that's 3x or more the size of Europe]. Why aren't they marching on their Govts to improve their Countries instead of always rushing to ours?

Nobody is obliged, I know, I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective, you can't really blame them. Those countries are damaged beyond belief with corruption and poverty, I'm sure they feel life is hopeless there. If you think it's bad now it's going to get way way way worse, and Europe and USA will be overwhelmed. There's only so much border controls can do but I'd say you're looking at 10s of millions migrating in the coming decades, so we need to look for solutions.

Sweetemotion

green shoots wrote: »

Nobody is obliged, I know, I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective, you can't really blame them. Those countries are damaged beyond belief with corruption and poverty, I'm sure they feel life is hopeless there. If you think it's bad now it's going to get way way way worse, and Europe and USA will be overwhelmed. There's only so much border controls can do but I'd say you're looking at 10s of millions migrating in the coming decades, so we need to look for solutions.

Two solutions for you, first one is to build a wall at the border. The second is to replace those in power of these countries with Western governments.

Coillte_Bhoy

JohnMc1 wrote: »

We're not legally or morally obligated to take in everyone with a sob story [which Europe is finding out with its constant influx of migrants from a Continent that's 3x or more the size of Europe]. Why aren't they marching on their Govts to improve their Countries instead of always rushing to ours?

Indeed because govts in Central America have traditionally tolerated mass protests on the streets :rolleyes:

green shoots

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Two solutions for you, first one is to build a wall at the border. The second is to replace those in power of these countries with Western governments.

And how do we build a wall around Europe? Population explosion in Africa right now is going to see boat after boat after boat flowing into Europe by hook or by crook.

wexie

Sweetemotion wrote: »

The second is to replace those in power of these countries with Western governments.

okay....walk us through your reasoning and explain to us how you think that might help?

Sweetemotion

wexie wrote: »

okay....walk us through your reasoning (if you can call it that) and explain to us how you think that might help?

Migrates are fleeing their own countries for a better life in mainly Westernised countries. Why not try to westernise their countries?

Danzy

green shoots wrote: »

And how do we build a wall around Europe? Population explosion in Africa right now is going to see boat after boat after boat flowing into Europe by hook or by crook.

Military option Id checks, etc

It will not be pretty but with the insane population explosion in Africa for the rest if this century, even a month of the annual growth would destabilize Europe.

Danzy

green shoots wrote: »

And how do we build a wall around Europe? Population explosion in Africa right now is going to see boat after boat after boat flowing into Europe by hook or by crook.

Military option Id checks, etc

It will not be pretty but with the insane population explosion in Africa for the rest if this century, even a month of the annual growth would destabilize Europe.

Danzy

wexie wrote: »

okay....walk us through your reasoning (if you can call it that) and explain to us how you think that might help?

If you do not have rule of law and a high trust society, it doesn't matter what resources you have in a state. It will be a mess.

That doesn't mean conquering the continent.

wexie

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Migrates are fleeing their own countries for a better life in mainly Westernised countries. Why not try to westernise their countries?

They're not coming for Western culture and lifestyle though are they? They're coming for the Western wealth and quality of life.

Simply replacing their governments with western style governments (whatever that may be) isn't going to make their countries suddenly richer. (although admittedly just solving the corruption problems in some of these places would be a big help).

I agree with you insofar that the only solution (imho) is to improve conditions to such an extent that the benefits of packing up and leaving no longer outweigh the risks.

But I don't think that doing it by forced government changes (if that's what you meant) is the way to go, it would more likely lead to civil wars and all kinds of other unpleasantness which in turn would lead to an increased refugee stream.

green shoots

Because puppet governments installed by the USA are always such a success in unstable countries

Danzy

wexie wrote: »

They're not coming for Western culture and lifestyle though are they? They're coming for the Western wealth and quality of life.

Simply replacing their governments with western style governments (whatever that may be) isn't going to make their countries suddenly richer. (although admittedly just solving the corruption problems in some of these places would be a big help).

I agree with you insofar that the only solution (imho) is to improve conditions to such an extent that the benefits of packing up and leaving no longer outweigh the risks.

But I don't think that doing it by forced government changes (if that's what you meant) is the way to go, it would more likely lead to civil wars and all kinds of other unpleasantness which in turn would lead to an increased refugee stream.

It will not solve it instantly but it is the one thing that will solve it in time.

The rate of population growth probably means it will not get a chance.

Many States are doubling in population every 18 years , for them disaster is unavoidable, even with concerted global effort.

4068ac1elhodqr

wexie wrote: »

They're not coming for Western culture and lifestyle though are they? They're coming for the Western wealth and quality of life.

Correct, coming for the wealth, housing, healthcare and free education.

But at the same time many (from outside Europe) have very little interest in the notion of integration or accepting European cultures or lifestyles.

Sweetemotion

Danzy wrote: »

It will not solve it instantly but it is the one thing that will solve it in time.

The rate of population growth probably means it will not get a chance.

Many States are doubling in population every 18 years , for them disaster is unavoidable, even with concerted global effort.

And with birth rates lower in Western countries. After time there would be more resources for everyone to have a better standard of life.

gw80

green shoots wrote: »

And how do we build a wall around Europe? Population explosion in Africa right now is going to see boat after boat after boat flowing into Europe by hook or by crook.

And there are people on the left who take glee in the taught of that, they think that if enough people come to Europe that all the wealth will have to be shared out equal amongst everyone and we will all hold hands and live in peace for ever and ever.
But that is not the reality of it, what will happen is quality of life for the indigenous population will get worse and resentment towards immigrants will grow, causing more strife and hardship for everyone.meanwhile the rich and more well off will isolate themselves and their money more and more

4068ac1elhodqr

Sweetemotion wrote: »

And with birth rates lower in Western countries. After time there would be more resources for everyone to have a better standard of life.

Ah but the emmerging 4th Industrial Reveloution i.e. That of automation, the 'gig-economy' and robotics, also means those unskilled (non-eu economic migrants) will shortly become 'redundant assets' (to put it nicely).

Estimates are that upto 50% of roles today won't exist by 2030. So what do you think poorly educated, illiterate, unskilled young men going to turn to to survive?

Most likely organised crime, the black economy and state-aid/handouts.

Sweetemotion

Jesus Flaky Subway wrote: »

Ah but the emmerging 4th Industrial Reveloution i.e. That of automation, the 'gig-economy' and robotics, also means those unskilled (non-eu economic migrants) will shortly become 'redundant assets' (to put it nicely).

Estimates are that upto 50% of roles today won't exist by 2030. So what do you think poorly educated, illiterate, unskilled young men going to turn to to survive?

Most likely organised crime, the black economy and state-aid/handouts.

Introduce a universal living wage.

Doctor Jimbob

gw80 wrote: »

And there are people on the left who take glee in the taught of that, they think that if enough people come to Europe that all the wealth will have to be shared out equal amongst everyone and we will all hold hands and live in peace for ever and ever.
But that is not the reality of it, what will happen is quality of life for the indigenous population will get worse and resentment towards immigrants will grow, causing more strife and hardship for everyone.meanwhile the rich and more well off will isolate themselves and their money more and more

Literally nobody thinks that.

Doctor Jimbob

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Literally nobody thinks that.

I do.

4068ac1elhodqr

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Introduce a universal living wage.

Yes, well that is inevitable anyway.

But with any population explosion from economic migrants, that's also not going to be cheap. Well the costs are actually phenomenal.

UBI means everyone (working or not) gets handed a living wage.

Two big issues are i) hyperinfation and ii) taxes.

The first can be controlled somewhat with fiscal tools.

The rich however rarely do, or want to pay any reasonable tax. Millionaire Popstars and CEO's are more prone to off-shore tax havens, trust funds and such like tax avoidance schemes.
So funding UBI will be very, very difficult.

JohnMc1

green shoots wrote: »

Nobody is obliged, I know, I'm just trying to look at it from their perspective, you can't really blame them. Those countries are damaged beyond belief with corruption and poverty,

This is what the UN should be doing. Instead of threatening us "for not doing more to handle the migrant crisis" they should be threatening these Countries Govts to reform themselves so their people can thrive in their own Countries and the ones who came to our Countries would have the option to go home if they wanted to.

Can you see the Middle East [who practically run the UN] and Asia picking up the slack once the US and Europe economically collapse from this? I don't.

JohnMc1

green shoots wrote: »

They're poor desperate people looking for a better life, in USA. They'd have a hard time finding that in other Central American countries or Mexico.
It's a sad state of affairs, but you can't really blame the people for trying.

If they were genuine then they would have applied in the US Embassies that they passed by. Europe is paying for it Bleeding heart "Let them in. They just want a better life." insanity.

gw80

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Literally nobody thinks that.

Some of them most certainly Do, the same people who harp on about open boarders are the same people who harp on about people who hoard wealth they especially loath inherited wealth. Funnily enough they are usually not short of a few bob themselves.

Doctor Jimbob

gw80 wrote: »

Some of them most certainly Do, the same people who harp on about open boarders are the same people who harp on about people who hoard wealth they especially loath inherited wealth. Funnily enough they are usually not short of a few bob themselves.

Just because people believe in open borders and support wealth distribution doesn't mean they think one will magically lead to the other.

gw80

Doctor Jimbob wrote: »

Just because people believe in open borders and support wealth distribution doesn't mean they think one will magically lead to the other.

Where do they think the wealth to be distributed to support an open border policie, will come from?

Pkiernan

https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal93-844-25162-1104265

Bill Clinton had the right idea:

"The simple fact is that we must not and we will not surrender our borders to those who wish to exploit our history of compassion and justice. We cannot tolerate those who traffic in human cargo, nor can we allow our people to be endangered by those who would enter our country to terrorize Americans. But the solution to the problem of illegal immigration is not simply to close our borders.

The solution is to welcome legal immigrants and legal, legitimate refugees and to turn away those who do not obey the laws. We must say no to illegal immigration so we can continue to say yes to legal immigration.

Today, we send a strong and clear message. We will make it tougher for illegal aliens to get into our country. We will treat organizing a crime syndicate to smuggle aliens as a serious crime. And we will increase the number of border patrol, equipping and training them to be first-class law enforcement officers."

This speech got a standing ovation.

JohnMc1

Pkiernan wrote: »

https://library.cqpress.com/cqalmanac/document.php?id=cqal93-844-25162-1104265

Bill Clinton had the right idea:

"The simple fact is that we must not and we will not surrender our borders to those who wish to exploit our history of compassion and justice. We cannot tolerate those who traffic in human cargo, nor can we allow our people to be endangered by those who would enter our country to terrorize Americans. But the solution to the problem of illegal immigration is not simply to close our borders.

The solution is to welcome legal immigrants and legal, legitimate refugees and to turn away those who do not obey the laws. We must say no to illegal immigration so we can continue to say yes to legal immigration.

Today, we send a strong and clear message. We will make it tougher for illegal aliens to get into our country. We will treat organizing a crime syndicate to smuggle aliens as a serious crime. And we will increase the number of border patrol, equipping and training them to be first-class law enforcement officers."

This speech got a standing ovation.

But Trump is a horrible person [Literally Hitler] for saying the same thing. Both Clintons were all for border walls until it was politically convenient to be pro open borders.

green shoots

JohnMc1 wrote: »

If they were genuine then they would have applied in the US Embassies that they passed by. Europe is paying for it Bleeding heart "Let them in. They just want a better life." insanity.

Genuine what? They're poor and desperate. Which US Embassies? In other sh*tholes like Mexico? Their lives will hardly improve there will they?

TeaBagMania

Clintons, Obamy, etc.. democraps are all talk and no action