Garda Firearms 2018

Gleefulprinter

Doing a couple of renewals at the moment. Is therr anything in the new garda book 2018 or is it just an update?

Captainaxiom

What Garda book. Do you mean the commissioners guidelines ?

Gleefulprinter

Captainaxiom wrote: »

What Garda book. Do you mean the commissioners guidelines ?

Thats the one. I was drawing ablank there.

GolfVI

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Thats the one. I was drawing ablank there.

Mostly just an update, from what ive read nothing major that would affect renewals

There was increases to the recommended ammo limits and more descriptions on zeroing rifles

Melodeon

Recent thread on it:
Updated Garda Commissioners Guidelines

Emmersonn

just renewed mine earlier this month. I had to supply a photo of my rifle showing the whole rifle and also a photograph of the serial number. Also a copy of my gun club membership.

solarwinds

Any particular reason given for that bizzare request.

Emmersonn

Not really. The FO blamed it on the local Super.

Heckler

Emmersonn wrote: »

just renewed mine earlier this month. I had to supply a photo of my rifle showing the whole rifle and also a photograph of the serial number. Also a copy of my gun club membership.

Ridiculous carry on for a renewal. Either stupidity/ignorance or spite at work there. Whereabouts was this generally ?

BattleCorp

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Doing a couple of renewals at the moment. Is therr anything in the new garda book 2018 or is it just an update?

The new guidelines outlined the extremely dodgy intention the Gardai have of revoking centrefire semi auto rifle licences granted since Sep. 2015. Pretty much it's the Gardai admitting that there is a defacto ban in place with absolutely no legislation in place to back it up.

Sorry, rant over.

Luckysasha

Im led to believe that having land permission to shoot is no longer a valid reason to have a gun. You must be a member of a gun club or target club and keep your membership renewed every year.

CorkCBR6

I submitted my first application a few weeks ago and was successful.

I had two landowners on the form and no ranges so that mustn't be the case.

Emmersonn

Heckler wrote: »

Ridiculous carry on for a renewal. Either stupidity/ignorance or spite at work there. Whereabouts was this generally ?

East Cork and not just mine. A few lads that have rifles locally went through the same rigmarole. The FO is sound.

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

Im led to believe that having land permission to shoot is no longer a valid reason to have a gun. You must be a member of a gun club or target club and keep your membership renewed every year.

As said in the opening post, there has been NO change to any legislation and no new legislation so the Commissioner's Guidelines can say what they like, they have no actual legislative powers to ban something that the law says is perfectly legal.

The core of hunting in this country stems from a chap on land shooting. It's not built around gun clubs and to limit shooting to gun clubs only would create a monopoly and there are EU directives on allowing such things.


Long story short, no, no change.

Cass

Gleefulprinter wrote: »

Doing a couple of renewals at the moment. Is therr anything in the new garda book 2018 or is it just an update?

As the laws haven;t changed there is no need to consider the Commissioner's guidelines. They are only a guide to the practical implementation and cannot supercede legislation.

There are a couple of things he [the Commish] says for Super/Chief Super's to do that are helpful, some things he says are wrong/bordering on illegal, and the rest hasn't changed.

Cass

solarwinds wrote: »

Any particular reason given for that bizzare request.

Emmersonn wrote: »

Not really. The FO blamed it on the local Super.

Heckler wrote: »

Ridiculous carry on for a renewal. Either stupidity/ignorance or spite at work there. Whereabouts was this generally ?

I'll take all this at once.

The 1925 firearms act, section 4(4) actually states that the Super can ask for proof of it's [the firearm] existence. So not tjhat unusual a request and been around for some time.

(4) A member of the Garda Síochána may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.

I've had to do it on a few occasions, once i had to bring it to the station because they couldn't figure out what type of gun it was from my description.

Cass

BattleCorp wrote: »

The new guidelines outlined the extremely dodgy intention the Gardai have of revoking centrefire semi auto rifle licences granted since Sep. 2015. Pretty much it's the Gardai admitting that there is a defacto ban in place with absolutely no legislation in place to back it up.

Sorry, rant over.

I've been saying this for a couple of years and was told i was scaremongering. It's outlined here.

Gleefulprinter

So nothing new so. Grand lads. Didn't want to get caught out.

Luckysasha

Cass wrote: »

As said in the opening post, there has been NO change to any legislation and no new legislation so the Commissioner's Guidelines can say what they like, they have no actual legislative powers to ban something that the law says is perfectly legal.

The core of hunting in this country stems from a chap on land shooting. It's not built around gun clubs and to limit shooting to gun clubs only would create a monopoly and there are EU directives on allowing such things.


Long story short, no, no change.

You can quote whatever laws and rules you like but as we all know when you hand in your FCA1 form your at the mercy of the FO and his or her interpretation of the guidelines. We can all give examples of lads who where refused licenses for reasons that made no sense or logic but at the end of the day unless you want to go through the expense of a court case there is not much you can do about a refusal on whatever grounds your FO deems. As for the land permission side of things the way my FO explained it to me was it was to cut down on Farmer X giving multiple permissions to lads and then going looking for a license himself. He could tell me of one farmer in our locality who has 75 a acres of land and has given permission to 5 guns to carry out pest control on his land yet the farmers daughter landed in with an FCA1 for a shotgun quoting pest control on the farm as a reason for applying. So in his words “ Do i refuse 1 or refuse 5”

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

You can quote whatever laws and rules you like but as we all know when you hand in your FCA1 form your at the mercy of the FO and his or her interpretation of the guidelines. We can all give examples of lads who where refused licenses for reasons that made no sense or logic but at the end of the day unless you want to go through the expense of a court case there is not much you can do about a refusal on whatever grounds your FO deems.[/uote]
Firstly, and not trying to be pedantic but it's important to use the correct terminology, the FO [Firearms Officer] post/ob doesn't exist. It's the Garda in the station that deals with applications/firearms.

Secondly the FO has no say on whether a license is granted or not. They process the form and send it to the district station if it a sub station or to the Garda acting as clerk/admin for the Super's office, and then the Super makes a decision on it. As my Super told me on more than one occasion "i'm the one that signs it so Garda "X's" (my FO) opinion/previous actions have no bearing on my decision".

Thirdly court cases a hassle and the majority of issues are solved long before a court is seen. The act of lodging a claim via the courts is relatively cheap enough and the "threat" of court action usually persuades a Super not following the law to act properly. If you have to go to court you can claim for expenses/costs (thank you Shatter).

Lastly, and i'm not keen ont he idea of a court case/appearance, if the threat of court on the AGS's part is enough to deprive people of their rights* in relation to firearms then they will continue to make upt he law as they go.

* we have no actual rights, but you get the idea

As for the land permission side of things the way my FO explained it to me was it was to cut down on Farmer X giving multiple permissions to lads and then going looking for a license himself.

Makes no sense at all, and has been done this way since the founding of the state and first Firearms Act. no Super, FO, Chief Super or even Commissioner has the authority to change that.

He could tell me of one farmer in our locality who has 75 a acres of land and has given permission to 5 guns to carry out pest control on his land yet the farmers daughter landed in with an FCA1 for a shotgun quoting pest control on the farm as a reason for applying. So in his words “ Do i refuse 1 or refuse 5”

He is being ridiculous and pedantic. Pest/vermin control is the nae given to the type of shooting. Doesn't necessarily mean everyone is after the same game, or out at the same time.

Going by the that "logic" only one person per "piece" of land would mean no one would give permission in case they ever wanted to hunt it themselves.

It's illegal and simply stupid.

In situations like that you tell whomever is at the window to stamp the form and send it to the Super for consideration. Any refusal must be in writing and has a detailed explanation of why it was refused. no more refusals with "cos i don't want to" or "public safety". That is also in the updated Commissioner's guidelines.

Grizzly 45

bTW as the farmer/ landowner.It's your land and if you want to sign up a divisions worth of lads to hunt on your land.its your absolute right to do so. There is nothing in law about this either.

This is the problem here with this kind of chancer in uniform,they try this on and get away with it,and then they make it "policy" and before you know it, everyone in the shooting community is taking this nonsense as gospel.
We have this BS with;

The deer hunting on 100 acres or less prohibition.

The semi-auto "ban" that might happen at some future date.

That straight pull bolt action rifles with bits on them are "assault rifles"

Makey up laws on silencers, contravening EU noise directives and accepted opinion in DC cases from Garda ballistics.

The simple thing is lads,ye have to know the law better than they do, and get them to put their objections on paper. From the Super or Cheif that is,not from the minion at the hatch.

Mississippi.

Luckysasha wrote: »

You can quote whatever laws and rules you like but as we all know when you hand in your FCA1 form your at the mercy of the FO and his or her interpretation of the guidelines. We can all give examples of lads who where refused licenses for reasons that made no sense or logic but at the end of the day unless you want to go through the expense of a court case there is not much you can do about a refusal on whatever grounds your FO deems. As for the land permission side of things the way my FO explained it to me was it was to cut down on Farmer X giving multiple permissions to lads and then going looking for a license himself. He could tell me of one farmer in our locality who has 75 a acres of land and has given permission to 5 guns to carry out pest control on his land yet the farmers daughter landed in with an FCA1 for a shotgun quoting pest control on the farm as a reason for applying. So in his words “ Do i refuse 1 or refuse 5”

But if the Super took that logic to gun club's they could specify that the club needs to have permission on a certain amount of acres for each member they have or even that a range should have a lane for each member.

Cass

Luckysasha wrote: »

You can quote whatever laws and rules you like but as we all know when you hand in your FCA1 form your at the mercy of the FO and his or her interpretation of the guidelines.

Bit of a soapbox moment so bear with me.

Leaving aside the FO - Super issue it wasn't until someone said they had enough of being told no when there was no legal reason to refuse them that we got pistols back. Same when the first lad said a 22lr wasn't enough and went for a 270/6.5 for hunting.

With the introduction of the courts and the elimination of the Super as persona designata we now have options we never had before.

It can be difficult and it can cost, but (open to correction) we [the shooting community] have won the majority if not all cases taken to enforce what is legal under the Firearms Acts (i hesitate to use the word rights). If we continue to allow guidelines to act as law, and be fobbed off based on the word of someone with a made up title that is not even above the rank of Sergeant then we will always be at the mercy of makey uppey laws.

At some point we just have to say enough is enough.

cavan shooter

Our County fund Officer told us recently that if your an NARGC member there is €750 towards an appeal if it comes to it, however and in fairness to Chris Gavican the man has been helping lads in difficulties through his contacts with the Firearms section in the park and it has headed off quite a few potential cases. We will see if there is a more open approach this time around. I remember this from last year coz the SCOVI put in a complaint about the use of the Garda Logo.

https://nargc.ie/n-a-r-g-c-garda-siochana-strike-new-accord/

meathstevie

Apart from the legislation quoted above the picture idea makes fairly good sense from a crime prevention / detection point of view. If one would be as unfortunate as falling victim of a burglary and the rifle being taken, which doesn't happen all that often, it will make life a lot easier for the investigating Garda. A good description what to look for in a search, a visual piece of evidence for an interview and so on all helps when it comes to securing convictions.

BattleCorp

meathstevie wrote: »

Apart from the legislation quoted above the picture idea makes fairly good sense from a crime prevention / detection point of view. If one would be as unfortunate as falling victim of a burglary and the rifle being taken, which doesn't happen all that often, it will make life a lot easier for the investigating Garda. A good description what to look for in a search, a visual piece of evidence for an interview and so on all helps when it comes to securing convictions.

I doubt having a picture of the firearm would be anything to do with making it easier for a Garda to identify a firearm during a search. The serial number on the firearm would enable them to do that.

I think the photo idea is there to enable the Gardaí declare a gun restricted based on the 'Idontlikethelookofthat' clause in our screwed up legislation.

Brasros

meathstevie wrote:

Apart from the legislation quoted above the picture idea makes fairly good sense from a crime prevention / detection point of view. If one would be as unfortunate as falling victim of a burglary and the rifle being taken, which doesn't happen all that often, it will make life a lot easier for the investigating Garda. A good description what to look for in a search, a visual piece of evidence for an interview and so on all helps when it comes to securing convictions.

I would think if in unfortunate event of a firearm being stolen and if was reclaimed by the Gardaí it would look considerably different from a picture with a shortened barrel and damage to the stock.

Grizzly 45

The interweb is a wonderful thing for looking up all types of firearms these days.As a certain EX inspector of Garda ballistics could tell us .:rolleyes:
So TBH if they want to know,I'm sure Google works in our LE offices?

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The interweb is a wonderful thing for looking up all types of firearms these days.As a certain EX inspector of Garda ballistics could tell us .:rolleyes:
So TBH if they want to know,I'm sure Google works in our LE offices?

True enough but the evidential value of a printout of a Google image search would be far lesser than an exhibited picture of an actual unique gun. Five lines of description in a statement of how a gun looks or a verified picture of the actual item. Which one do you think is the most convincing in a prosecution file ?

Think of a picture of a crashed vehicle in a dangerous driving case. Here's a picture of a crashed Toyota Avensis from Google, it looks a bit like the one the defendant was driving or here are pictures of the crashed Toyota Avensis which the prosecution argues was driven by the defendant at the scene of the crash where the defendant was arrested.

Grizzly 45

Two different comparisons.
Do you think they really want a "description" of the firearm for that purpose?Going by some of the god awful descriptions they give the press betimes of firearms.Things like "Sawn off.22 shotguns" or 9mm Luger magnum handguns or the ultra-common AK15?Or is it more a "He wants a license for that?? I don like de look o dat now!" purposes?

Anyway,if you are going to convict someone of a crime,I think the "unique firearm " would be in the courtroom tagged "Exhibit A" as evidence. in front of 12 good men and true as evidence of the crime. So its illogical to request a photo of something that might be stolen,but has enough identifying marks and serial numbers on it to identify it as a unique item/ firearm in the first place?

A car accident isn't a good comparison, because first off it could be either a criminal or civil case depending on circumstances or a plain old accident of the "sht happens "variety.Do AGS want records of" unique cars",as they might be used in comitting crime too?

meathstevie

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Two different comparisons.
Do you think they really want a "description" of the firearm for that purpose?Going by some of the god awful descriptions they give the press betimes of firearms.Things like "Sawn off.22 shotguns" or 9mm Luger magnum handguns or the ultra-common AK15?Or is it more a "He wants a license for that?? I don like de look o dat now!" purposes?

Anyway,if you are going to convict someone of a crime,I think the "unique firearm " would be in the courtroom tagged "Exhibit A" as evidence. in front of 12 good men and true as evidence of the crime. So its illogical to request a photo of something that might be stolen,but has enough identifying marks and serial numbers on it to identify it as a unique item/ firearm in the first place?

A car accident isn't a good comparison, because first off it could be either a criminal or civil case depending on circumstances or a plain old accident of the "sht happens "variety.Do AGS want records of" unique cars",as they might be used in comitting crime too?

I reckon we need to agree to disagree Grizzly.

Wholeheartedly agree with you that there's some nonsense being written in the press and talked on other media when it comes to firearms alright. It's all high power this and extremely lethal that etc etc.....

A 9mm handgun is not extremely high powered or extremely lethal, it's a common caliber handgun that's just as lethal as any other common caliber handgun.