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Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭ Dav010


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Revenue don't do puff pieces. y! ;)

    Government/Departments do though.

    Given that Airbnb pass information on yearly income of all Hosts directly to Revenue, targeting that group for tax evasion considering there are no cash transactions to evade tax, seems odd. Revenue already have the income statement and the tax payers details.

    I should add, my business has been through a Revenue Audit, you are correct, not a pleasant experience, but not too bad either.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I should add, my business has been through a Revenue Audit, you are correct, not a pleasant experience, but not too bad either.

    They are firm but fair.
    They're not out to get you- but you had better be in a position to explain any questions they ask- and for any that you don't have an explanation for- just take whatever they say- its not worth the headache of fighting with them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,159 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Government/Departments do though.

    Given that Airbnb pass information on yearly income of all Hosts directly to Revenue, targeting that group for tax evasion considering there are no cash transactions to evade tax, seems odd. Revenue already have the income statement and the tax payers details.

    I should add, my business has been through a Revenue Audit, you are correct, not a pleasant experience, but not too bad either.
    True they do but if it's been announced I'd expect them to take a look at it. It may as you say turn up very little or it may find some "surprises". It's all about maximising compliance for them.

    Never experienced one thankfully but I've been told that the nature of an audit depends on what they think you might be doing ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,129 ✭✭✭✭ Maryanne84


    is_that_so wrote: »
    Revenue don't do puff pieces. They regularly target individual sectors for compliance and they hit them hard. An audit is not to be wished on your worst enemy! ;)

    If one has nothing to hide and are carrying on their business legally and above board, one has nothing to hide.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭ Dav010


    - but you had better be in a position to explain any questions they ask.

    That is my point, in the case of Airbnb income, the question is answered before they ask, they will already have the Host income statement from Airbnb for the year being audited, how is that a crackdown?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭ Dav010


    Maryanne84 wrote: »
    If one has nothing to hide and are carrying on their business legally and above board, one has nothing to hide.

    You are missing the point, you literally cannot hide Airbnb income, the only way a guest can pay is electronically through the website, and details of those payments are forwarded to Revenue by Airbnb. It is the most tax compliant platform out there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,129 ✭✭✭✭ Maryanne84


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You are missing the point, you literally cannot hide Airbnb income, the only way a guest can pay is electronically through the website, and details of those payments are forwarded to Revenue by Airbnb. It is the most tax compliant platform out there.

    I think it’s you missing the point. AirBnB aren’t the only company facilitating short term lets.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    Dav010 wrote: »
    You are missing the point, you literally cannot hide Airbnb income, the only way a guest can pay is electronically through the website, and details of those payments are forwarded to Revenue by Airbnb. It is the most tax compliant platform out there.

    The platform may be fully compliant- however, it doesn't mean that all the hosts are......... I'd imagine there are plenty of people out there letting property on airbnb/booking.com etc- who are not declaring the income........ Its these noncompliant people that Revenue will be chasing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    Maryanne84 wrote: »
    I think it’s you missing the point. AirBnB aren’t the only company facilitating short term lets.

    They are the one most in the media- and most in people's consciousness. If people are thinking of doing a short term let- or a short term rental- for a majority of people airbnb will be the one and only company who comes to mind. Even companies like booking.com- simply don't have the traction in people's minds that airbnb has. They may not be the only company out there- but for a majorty of people- they may as well be.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭ Dav010


    The platform may be fully compliant- however, it doesn't mean that all the hosts are......... I'd imagine there are plenty of people out there letting property on airbnb/booking.com etc- who are not declaring the income........ Its these noncompliant people that Revenue will be chasing.

    The Conductor, I’m not sure if you are an Airbnb Host letting out your property, but in the hope of providing some clarity on the declaration of income, there is no Host out there who is not declaring their Airbnb income, because, it is sent to Revenue whether they declare it or not. There is no avoiding tax on Airbnb income


    Reporting obligations

    Airbnb Ireland is legally required under Sections 888 and 890 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 to provide certain information in relation to Irish host earnings annually to the Irish Revenue.

    Irish host earnings include:

    All rental income earned by Irish resident hosts in respect of both Irish and foreign listings
    All rental income earned by non-Irish resident hosts in respect of Irish listings.
    The report is due by September every year and covers earnings for the previous year. If you received Irish host earnings during the calendar year, Airbnb is required to provide Irish Revenue with the following information (which we obtain from the details in your Airbnb account):

    Your first and last name
    Address of your listing(s)
    Your address as associated with your payout method
    Amounts paid out in the reportable year, including cleaning fees
    Date of your first booking during the reportable year, by listing

    https://www.airbnb.ie/help/article/1378/responsible-hosting-in-ireland


    http://assets.airbnb.com/eyguidance/ie_new.pdf


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    Fair enough- I knew Airbnb communicated with Revenue- I wasn't aware of the extent that they did.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    And, no, I'm not letting property on airbnb, I've a bone to pick with a few neighbours who are though..........


  • Registered Users Posts: 34,957 ✭✭✭✭ LuckyLloyd


    Already seeing housing stock hit the market recently that is definitely short term letting stock. Obvious from the photos used for sale. Good to see.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭ The_Conductor


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Already seeing housing stock hit the market recently that is definitely short term letting stock. Obvious from the photos used for sale. Good to see.

    Thats a very short term view though.
    Another way of looking at this- is that its removing short term stock from the market- which is incentivising those who are currently letting units for refugees etc- move back into the formal hotel markets- as the reduction in airbnb units pushes up overnight hotel rates.

    An example of this is Hatch Hall in Dublin- which has to be vacated by the 15th of July- as its going into the hotel sector immediately (it was previously thought the residents had until next January to find alternate accommodation).


    Airbnb units hitting the sale market- is simply shuffling units around- it doesn't add to our housing supply- it simply shuffles the decks and someone somewhere else ends up worse off- and someone (presumably the new purchaser) is better off..........

    Chasing airbnb- when the obvious issue is a lack of new social and affordable housing units- is simply playing to the media. We need more social and affordable housing units- they don't have to be plush units in high demand areas- but we need large volumes of them- and at a constant delivery rate going forwards, we don't need distractions- we need to get delivering these units. Chasing airbnb- is a distraction.

    I'm saying all of this- to play devil's advocate- I don't have a vested interest in either side of the equation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,159 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Maryanne84 wrote: »
    If one has nothing to hide and are carrying on their business legally and above board, one has nothing to hide.
    True enough but still no fun.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31,159 ✭✭✭✭ is_that_so


    Thats a very short term view though.
    Another way of looking at this- is that its removing short term stock from the market- which is incentivising those who are currently letting units for refugees etc- move back into the formal hotel markets- as the reduction in airbnb units pushes up overnight hotel rates.

    An example of this is Hatch Hall in Dublin- which has to be vacated by the 15th of July- as its going into the hotel sector immediately (it was previously thought the residents had until next January to find alternate accommodation).


    Airbnb units hitting the sale market- is simply shuffling units around- it doesn't add to our housing supply- it simply shuffles the decks and someone somewhere else ends up worse off- and someone (presumably the new purchaser) is better off..........

    Chasing airbnb- when the obvious issue is a lack of new social and affordable housing units- is simply playing to the media. We need more social and affordable housing units- they don't have to be plush units in high demand areas- but we need large volumes of them- and at a constant delivery rate going forwards, we don't need distractions- we need to get delivering these units. Chasing airbnb- is a distraction.

    I'm saying all of this- to play devil's advocate- I don't have a vested interest in either side of the equation.
    It's really just "Whose turn is it to get hit by Revenue?" time. There may or may not be non-compliance. They'll do their review and move on to other targets. It's not politics even if some people couch it like that. Politics will be about the very challenging enforcement of the new rules.


  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭ guideanna


    Maybe not the correct forum so please move if applicable.

    New law kicks in today restricting short term lettings on rental properties.
    I feel like this law has been rushed through, government trying to put a band aid on the housing shortage by kicking the landlords yet again in the nuts because god forbid they'd actually make a few quid out of these propertied that most of them were "stuck" with during the recession, in negative equity, topping up mortgages and no one stepping in to help them then or now"
    If i own a property and i decide i want to rent it to Mary one week and Tom the next week, who the hell is anyone to tell me otherwise!

    The irish examiner said
    "Landlords with properties in rent pressure zones will be required to register with their local council if they are renting out rooms or the entire property for less than 90 days per year. If they are doing so for more than 90 days, they will be required to apply for planning permission to do so."
    PLANNING PERMISSION.....excuse me WHAT!

    Taken from rte news
    " It's hoped that introducing the regulations will drive more properties back into the long term rental market and, in turn, relieve some of the pressures on the rental market."
    So basically the government is hanging the landlords out yet again!
    Good luck to them trying to enforce this there's literally hundreds of properties onair b&b alone for Dublin.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 947 ✭✭✭ Phileas Frog


    guideanna wrote: »
    I feel like this law has been rushed through, government trying to put a band aid on the housing shortage by kicking the landlords yet again in the nuts because god forbid they'd actually make a few quid out of these propertied that most of them were "stuck" with during the recession, in negative equity, topping up mortgages and no one stepping in to help them then or now"

    The new law wasn't enacted yesterday you know? Crawl out from under that rock you live under.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 59,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭ L1011


    Merged to megathread


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭ Bluefoam


    guideanna wrote: »
    PLANNING PERMISSION.....excuse me WHAT!

    You've always needed planning permission to change the use of a property... in this case from residential, to hotel or guesthouse. If you want to run a business you need to follow basic law. The planning rules have been in place for decades, the new legislation just helps for them to be managed more effectiovely.

    As for those who feel that they can do what they wish with their homes... there are seperate rules applying to those who wish to subsidise their income by short leasing a room or their entire property, once it is their primary residence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 490 ✭✭ guideanna


    I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

    This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
    No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
    And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
    I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,129 ✭✭✭✭ Maryanne84


    guideanna wrote: »
    I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

    This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
    No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
    And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
    I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.

    If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭ Bluefoam


    guideanna wrote: »
    I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

    This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.

    If you are running short term lets from a property that is not your primary reidence, then you are competing with hotels, but you have chosen not to adhere to the standards set for hotekls, thus giving your business an advantage and possibly effecting the quality and safety for guests.

    As for the change of use... If the house/apartment/dwelling was built as a house/home under planning as a residential property & you are now using it as a business, then you absolutely 100% have changed the use under planning.

    Trying to claim that because you limit you business from longer term contracts doesn't mean you aren't running a hotel is absolute bollox and you are just acting the sleeveen. The law says you are running a business, so deal with it.

    The poor me attitude from landlords is sad... Either run they should run their business professionally, or if they are unable to, then they probably shouldn't be in the business to begin with. Theres too many landlords running unprofessional services and causing a negative impact on the industry... Only themselves to blame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭ CoffeeBean2


    Maryanne84 wrote: »
    If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.


    Except in the case where

    - you are a B&B with four or less bedrooms,
    - you rent for 14 days or more at a time, less is clearly breaking the law.
    - it is your PPR

    Obviously renting out a PPR for up to 90 days a year is completely different then renting out a non-PPR for up to 90 days a year when it comes to planning laws!! Clearly that difference is covered in the planning laws people keep mentioning here. Oh wait, no it's not! How did that happen?

    Planning is a typical dead cat strategy, or a reverse Chewbacca defense if you will.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,448 davindub


    Maryanne84 wrote: »
    If one is running a business from the premises you have to have the proper planning permission a pay rates.


    Except in the case where

    - you are a B&B with four or less bedrooms,
    - you rent for 14 days or more at a time, less is clearly breaking the law.
    - it is your PPR

    Obviously renting out a PPR for up to 90 days a year is completely different then renting out a non-PPR for up to 90 days a year when it comes to planning laws!! Clearly that difference is covered in the planning laws people keep mentioning here. Oh wait, no it's not! How did that happen?

    Planning is a typical dead cat strategy, or a reverse Chewbacca defense if you will.

    If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭ CoffeeBean2


    davindub wrote: »
    If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.


    I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?


    As I said, dead cat strategy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭ xckjoo


    guideanna wrote: »
    I haven't changed the I haven't changed the use of the property at all. The duration of the renting but it's certainly not run as a hotel or guesthouse.

    This is the government moving the goal posts for landlords.
    No help during the recession, and now trying to hit them when they know the rents are high and they are making some profits.
    And when i say some, over the last 15 years i'd still be in minus figures over what i've paid out to keep the property.
    I'd be considering selling now rather than return to the long term rental market.
    That'll help the housing supply so sounds like the law is doing what it's supposed to.


  • Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭ Zenify


    davindub wrote: »
    If you read the planning permission attached to a property, it might make things clearer for you.


    I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?


    As I said, dead cat strategy.

    That's why they brought this in. To help people understand exactly what is allowed in a building that doesnt have planning permission for tourist accommodation.

    With the law I would always recommend to err on the side of caution. I honestly think people have some neck complaining about this. A residential house cannot be turned into a pub, a chipper or a B&B without permission, licence etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,126 ✭✭✭ xckjoo


    Dav010 wrote: »
    I can’t read the article as it is a subscription piece, but Revenue automatically get all income information from Airbnb on host earnings, there are no illicit/cash payments through this platform. You probably could not find a more Revenue compliant business model. Anyone who is a host can easily print off the income statement at the end of each year, this is the same one Airbnb sends to Revenue and that is done whether the host likes it or not. So what will an audit of Airbnb hosts show that they don’t already know?


    I've heard of people who organise off-the-books bookings for people once they meet them personally. Maybe it's to catch things like them


  • Registered Users Posts: 99 ✭✭ CoffeeBean2


    Zenify wrote: »
    That's why they brought this in. To help people understand exactly what is allowed in a building that doesnt have planning permission for tourist accommodation.

    You mean to say that you agree with me and that this was not a planning issue like posters keep saying it was before today? Otherwise PPR would not be able to rent out for 90 days a year.

    Zenify wrote: »
    A residential house cannot be turned into a pub, a chipper or a B&B without permission, licence etc.

    You can turn it into a pub, you just can't charge a per pint price, this was done in Donegal. You also do *NOT* need planning permission or change of use permission to open a B&B as long as you have four or less units!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,448 davindub


    I would suggest you do the same and point out where exactly does says that you can / can not rent out a house for a period of over / under 14 days for a maximum of 90 days a year (but only if it's your PPR)?


    As I said, dead cat strategy.

    The most important thing is that the "permission" attached will use a particular phrase such as "dwelling", "holiday accommodation", etc. Conversely, a "holiday accommodation" cannot be used for a full time residence.

    I won't explain this in detail, but if you see the word "dwelling" and the council who issued the permission defines "dwelling" as a permanent residence, then once it is being used as a permanent residence, you can avail of the B&B exemption or the short term letting exemption contained in the legislation. PS permanent residence generally means someone resides there.

    The 14 days mentioned actually changes the normal accepted meaning of resides quite a bit, so that's actually an improvement for those operating short term lets.

    Short term holiday accommodation has it's own permission type.


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