Air BnB [and other platforms] to be effectively outlawed in high demand areas

CoffeeBean2

Graham wrote: »

If it is a residential property, there is no automatic right to convert it to anything else whether for business or other reasons.

But there is no converting of the property at all. People eat, sleep and s*** in the house just like everyone else. The fact that those people are staying less than 14 days in a row appears to be the only issue.

Graham

CoffeeBean2 wrote: »

staying less than 14 days in a row appears to be the only issue.

Correct, because then it's no longer residential.

runawaybishop

Graham wrote: »

Whatever the stated goal might be, returning residential property back to the housing market in any form is a good thing.

Even if there were no housing crisis, legislation of this type would be necessary.

Returning housing at the cost of fewer rentals long term is not a good thing. It's this myopic view that has gotten us to where we are now.

Graham

They are neither long term rentals or housing at the moment.

Yurt2

Carlos Slow Traitor wrote: »

It really is ridiculous that these rules are being imposed, the property owner owes no one a home and they should be allowed to do as they please in order to make the business work the way they want and if that’s airbnb then so be it.

Great, can I set up a pub in my house now? #muhpropertyrights

overkill602

Those here in favour of this legislation are just been vexatious its still taking from some who need it particularly those who need to stay in a certain location for a short period of time majority of LLs chose this path did it to avoid risks protected by the state

Dav010

Yurt! wrote: »

Great, can I set up a pub in my house now? #muhpropertyrights

A simple and poor analogy. How about this: Can I continue to operate a pub in a building I own, which I have legally been doing so for years and which is designed to be a pub?

Slutmonkey57b

Dav010 wrote: »

A simple and poor analogy. How about this: Can I continue to operate a pub in a building I own, which I have legally been doing so for years and which is designed to be a pub?

Your analogy is even worse. The actual scenario is "can I continue breaking a law which has had lax enforcement up to this point?"

The answer to the question is no.

Dav010

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Your analogy is even worse. The actual scenario is "can I continue breaking a law which has had lax enforcement up to this point?"

The answer to the question is no.

Wrong, it was legal to rent out your property for durations of your choosing up until the introduction of legislation to limit short lets. The enforcement is new, but the restrictions are also quite recent.

The_Conductor

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Your analogy is even worse. The actual scenario is "can I continue breaking a law which has had lax enforcement up to this point?"

The answer to the question is no.

There was no law prohibiting this until recently- it is not the case that there was lax enforcement- it simply didn't exist. On the contrary- Airbnb and Booking.com supply the details of all rentals to the Revenue Commissioners- and have done for 3 years now- to ensure compliance with tax law.

Yurt2

Dav010 wrote: »

A simple and poor analogy. How about this: Can I continue to operate a pub in a building I own, which I have legally been doing so for years and which is designed to be a pub?

Certainly, if you're liscenced by the competent authority and aren't in violation of planning codes and laws surrounding use.

This is political, BTL landlords were acting the maggot with AirBnB, not in the least with not declaring to Revenue (thankfully partly-solved), and the social consequences were being felt. Many thought they hit the jackpot and f*ck the rest of society and having functioning cities - chickens are home to roost now. Feel free to lobby incumbent and prospective TDs at GE time trying to get them to feel sorry for you. If you can't turn a buck with these modest regulations then you always have the option to sell. Who knows, a young couple looking for a start in life might end up with the keys.

Dav010

Yurt! wrote: »

Certainly, if you're liscenced by the competent authority and aren't in violation of planning codes and laws surrounding use. This isn’t like your original analogy where you decide to set up a pub selling alcohol to the public in your house without planning.

This is political, BTL landlords were acting the maggot with AirBnB, not in the least with not declaring to Revenue (thankfully partly-solved), and the social consequences were being felt. Many thought they hit the jackpot and f*ck the rest of society and having functioning cities - chickens are home to roost now. Feel free to lobby incumbent and prospective TDs at GE time trying to get them to feel sorry for you. If you can't turn a buck with these modest regulations then you always have the option to sell. Who knows, a young couple looking for a start in life might end up with the keys.

You are still missing the point. You didn’t need a license, in this case planning, to let your house until recently, and I would class the authority in this as anything but competent.

Again, as others have posted on numerous occasions, Airbnb inform Revenue of ALL income a host earns, that does not happen in long term lets or lets on other platforms.

Acting the maggot? You mean maximising income while at the same time exiting a sector which has become ludicrously regulated with legislation which is ineffective (RPZ) and where errant tenants get protection and preferential treatment over the property owner?

I won’t lobby anyone, and I suspect most will continue to turn a buck, but it still won’t solve the housing crisis, it’s just a tiny bit of good PR for an under press housing minister. I think this legislation will be as successful in curbing short lets as the RPZ have been at capping rents. Last year rents went up on average 14% in Dublin and that was with tenants being able to bring a complaint to the RTB, DCC actually have to catch the guest in the house.

Yurt2

Dav010 wrote: »

You are still missing the point. You didn’t need a license, in this case planning, to let your house until recently, and I would class the authority in this as anything but competent.

Again, as others have posted on numerous occasions, Airbnb inform Revenue of ALL income a host earns, that does not happen in long term lets or lets on other platforms.

Acting the maggot? You mean maximising income while at the same time exiting a sector which has become ludicrously regulated with legislation which is ineffective (RPZ) and where errant tenants get protection and preferential treatment over the property owner?

On your first point, you were almost certainly in violation of use laws, and probably weren't insured appropriately if you were operating it as a short term let year round.

A decision (prior to the institution of these laws) by ABP confirms this; i.e constant short –term rental in most cases would require planning permission as it amounts to a material (i.e. significant) change of use. In this instance, it was determined that there was a significant intensification of use, with regular movement of renters and servicing staff and the activity was fully commercial and let on a year-round basis. This was within the previous legal framework and the new laws double down on this principle.

Second point, good, I would hope so.

Third point, yes, acting the maggot.

Fian

Has anyone got a link to the actual regulations by any chance? I haven't seen them. Are they published?

The_Conductor

Fian wrote: »

Has anyone got a link to the actual regulations by any chance? I haven't seen them. Are they published?

There you go

marieholmfan

You were acting illegally in the same sense that I would be if I ran a shebeen.


EDIT That's incorrect

You are acting in the same way as a cafe owner would be if he or she ran a shebeen.

Dav010 wrote: »

You are still missing the point. You didn’t need a license, in this case planning, to let your house until recently, and I would class the authority in this as anything but competent.

Again, as others have posted on numerous occasions, Airbnb inform Revenue of ALL income a host earns, that does not happen in long term lets or lets on other platforms.

Acting the maggot? You mean maximising income while at the same time exiting a sector which has become ludicrously regulated with legislation which is ineffective (RPZ) and where errant tenants get protection and preferential treatment over the property owner?

I won’t lobby anyone, and I suspect most will continue to turn a buck, but it still won’t solve the housing crisis, it’s just a tiny bit of good PR for an under press housing minister. I think this legislation will be as successful in curbing short lets as the RPZ have been at capping rents. Last year rents went up on average 14% in Dublin and that was with tenants being able to bring a complaint to the RTB, DCC actually have to catch the guest in the house.

Fian

The_Conductor wrote: »

There you go

Thanks, but I am looking for the regulations which have been referred to in the media, not the recent primary legislation. The regulations which apparently provide for persons to continue with short term lets in their own home, with a 90 day limit if they are letting their entire home rather than a part of it.

The_Conductor

Fian wrote: »

Thanks, but I am looking for the regulations which have been referred to in the media, not the recent primary legislation. The regulations which apparently provide for persons to continue with short term lets in their own home, with a 90 day limit if they are letting their entire home rather than a part of it.

Its in the recent planning legislation- not the amendment to the RTA. I'll try get you a link later- amn't at a computer at the moment.

machalla

An interesting lenghty piece discussing some of the issues around the changes to short term lets.

The uphill battle to police Ireland's new Airbnb rules

Airbnb hosts being analysed by Revenue as they consider widespread audit crackdown
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/airbnb-hosts-being-analysed-by-revenue-as-they-consider-widespread-audit-crackdown-38220632.html

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Airbnb hosts being analysed by Revenue as they consider widespread audit crackdown
https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/airbnb-hosts-being-analysed-by-revenue-as-they-consider-widespread-audit-crackdown-38220632.html

I can’t read the article as it is a subscription piece, but Revenue automatically get all income information from Airbnb on host earnings, there are no illicit/cash payments through this platform. You probably could not find a more Revenue compliant business model. Anyone who is a host can easily print off the income statement at the end of each year, this is the same one Airbnb sends to Revenue and that is done whether the host likes it or not. So what will an audit of Airbnb hosts show that they don’t already know?

Dav010

Dav010 wrote: »

I can’t read the article as it is a subscription piece, but Revenue automatically get all income information from Airbnb on host earnings, there are no illicit/cash payments through this platform. You probably could not find a more Revenue compliant business model. Anyone who is a host can easily print off the income statement at the end of each year, this is the same one Airbnb sends to Revenue and that is done whether the host likes it or not. So what will an audit of Airbnb hosts show that they don’t already know?

It’s not subscription. Just register and read away for free.

It appears to be aimed at all short term lets and not just AirBnB. Businesses are regularly audited by revenue but they seem to be focusing on specific sectors in a sort of a blitz.

“The tax body may escalate its focus on 'short term accommodation' services following a letter campaign last year.

The Sunday Independent has learned that Revenue told a meeting of accounting and legal representatives that it is carrying out an analysis of the results of the letter phase of its 'short-term accommodation' project with a view to making a decision on a compliance project. Such projects target a specific sector to root out underpayment of tax through audits and other measures”

The_Conductor

Good way to encourage another lump of property onto the sale market- the only pity is that it didn't happen a year ago.
Its interesting that the property market is flatlining- while tax evasion can never be condoned- it shouldn't be allowed flourish before they do something about it.
Proactive rather than reactive responses are what is called for.........

Dav010

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It’s not subscription. Just register and read away for free.

It appears to be aimed at all short term lets and not just AirBnB. Businesses are regularly audited by revenue but they seem to be focusing on specific sectors in a sort of a blitz.

“The tax body may escalate its focus on 'short term accommodation' services following a letter campaign last year.

The Sunday Independent has learned that Revenue told a meeting of accounting and legal representatives that it is carrying out an analysis of the results of the letter phase of its 'short-term accommodation' project with a view to making a decision on a compliance project. Such projects target a specific sector to root out underpayment of tax through audits and other measures”

Then that is not aimed at Airbnb, as underpayment is difficult if not impossible as Airbnb send info on host payments direct to Revenue. Sounds like a Revenue/Government puff piece.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/why-the-new-airbnb-regulations-are-unlikely-to-work-1.3929969

"And even if that doesn’t work, you might be covered by another exemption; if you’ve been in the Airbnb business for seven years or more, the council will be “statute barred” from any enforcement proceedings against the property. Although the Department of Housing says landlords “are always encouraged to regularise their position”, they won’t be legally compelled to do so. So why would they bother?"

Am I right in thinking this isn't correct given that the planning permission for most of the houses were talking about are for single family homes, they can't avail themselves of the 7 year rule?

4ensic15

Deleted User wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/why-the-new-airbnb-regulations-are-unlikely-to-work-1.3929969

"And even if that doesn’t work, you might be covered by another exemption; if you’ve been in the Airbnb business for seven years or more, the council will be “statute barred” from any enforcement proceedings against the property. Although the Department of Housing says landlords “are always encouraged to regularise their position”, they won’t be legally compelled to do so. So why would they bother?"

Am I right in thinking this isn't correct given that the planning permission for most of the houses were talking about are for single family homes, they can't avail themselves of the 7 year rule?

In the event of someone claiming that the council is statute barred from planning enforcement, the onus of proof is on that person. 7 years accounst will have to be produced.

4ensic15

4ensic15 wrote: »

In the event of someone claiming that the council is statute barred from planning enforcement, the onus of proof is on that person. 7 years accounst will have to be produced.

Even if it was produced, "section 157(4)(b) of the 2000 Act which provides that irrespective of the time that has elapsed, enforcement action can still be taken where a person has failed to satisfy a planning condition concerning the use of land".

Every planning application I've seen for a home states that its for a home and would be considered a use of the land. Airbnbing a whole property isn't like changing the use of a shed to a workshop its changing the whole property

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

In the event of someone claiming that the council is statute barred from planning enforcement, the onus of proof is on that person. 7 years accounst will have to be produced.

I thought Airbnb only launched an Irish branch of its platform in late 2012-early 2013? Which would mean, if this is correct, that you'd have difficulty in trying to prove 7 years of short term leasing. If anyone knows exactly when Airbnb launched their Irish lettings- I'd be grateful if they could shed some light on it- I'm only going from memory.

CoffeeBean2

The_Conductor wrote: »

I thought Airbnb only launched an Irish branch of its platform in late 2012-early 2013? Which would mean, if this is correct, that you'd have difficulty in trying to prove 7 years of short term leasing. If anyone knows exactly when Airbnb launched their Irish lettings- I'd be grateful if they could shed some light on it- I'm only going from memory.

The legislation is against short term accommodation, not Airbnb. There were other websites before Airbnb.

As it happens I did have my property on a home exchange website 12 years ago for a year or two, all other times it was occupied by myself and never rented out. I wonder if that counts, after all short term letting is not continually letting out of that property!

is_that_so

Dav010 wrote: »

Then that is not aimed at Airbnb, as underpayment is difficult if not impossible as Airbnb send info on host payments direct to Revenue. Sounds like a Revenue/Government puff piece.

Revenue don't do puff pieces. They regularly target individual sectors for compliance and they hit them hard. An audit is not to be wished on your worst enemy!