Leinster v Wasps Match thread Friday 12 October 7.45pm

The Lost Sheep

Leinster Rugby
Rob Kearney, Jordan Larmour, Garry Ringrose, Robbie Henshaw, James Lowe, Johnny Sexton, Luke McGrath, Cian Healy, Seán Cronin, Tadhg Furlong, Devin Toner, James Ryan, Dan Leavy, Josh van der Flier, Jack Conan
Replacements: James Tracy, Jack McGrath, Andrew Porter, Scott Fardy, Seán O’Brien, Nick McCarthy, Ross Byrne, Joe Tomane

Wasps
Willie Le Roux, Josh Bassett, Juan de Jongh, Michael Le Bourgeois, Elliot Daly, Lima Sopoaga, Joe Simpson
Zurabi Zhvania, Tommy Taylor, Kieran Brookes, Will Rowlands, James Gaskell, Brad Shields, Thomas Young, Nizaam Carr
Replacements: Tom Cruse, Ben Harris, Will Stuart, Kearnan Myall, Ashley Johnson, Craig Hampson, Billy Searle, Rob Miller

arsebiscuits1

Even with the weather I can see this being a pretty comfortable bonus point win.

Felipe made reference to Wasps wanting to bounce back after last week.

But Leinster must be acutely aware that the last time Wasps came to the RDS, it was one of the worst performances that they have put out on that soil. Wrongs will want to be righted.

34-15

prawnsambo

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Even with the weather I can see this being a pretty comfortable bonus point win.

Felipe made reference to Wasps wanting to bounce back after last week.

But Leinster must be acutely aware that the last time Wasps came to the RDS, it was one of the worst performances that they have put out on that soil. Wrongs will want to be righted.

34-15

The weather looks fine actually. 15kph wind and no rain from about 5pm.

thebaz

I wonder is SOB surprised to be on the bench ??

would have liked to see him at 8 - and leavy at 6 at Van derflier at 7.

The Lost Sheep

thebaz wrote: »

I wonder is SOB surprised to be on the bench??

would have liked to see him at 8 - and leavy at 6 at Van derflier at 7.

Is it a surprise? He was rusty enough last weekend and probably better for him to go from the bench.

Former Former

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

But Leinster must be acutely aware that the last time Wasps came to the RDS, it was one of the worst performances that they have put out on that soil. Wrongs will want to be righted.

Somewhat incredibly, that game was only three years ago, but only two of the starting Leinster XV will start tomorrow's game (Sexton and Toner).

Buer

thebaz wrote: »

would have liked to see him at 8 - and leavy at 6 at Van derflier at 7.

Not directing this at you specifically thebaz but I don't get the relatively common desire/excitement to see the above back row.

Stheno

What tv channel is this on?

prawnsambo

Stheno wrote: »

What tv channel is this on?

BT Sport 2, I think. (not sure if it's 1 or 2)

The Lost Sheep

Stheno wrote: »

What tv channel is this on?

BT.

Stheno

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

BT.

Ffs

The Lost Sheep

Stheno wrote: »

Ffs

All games are on BT with a game per round on channel 4.

The Pheasant2

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Is it a surprise? He was rusty enough last weekend and probably better for him to go from the bench.

Knock on at the base aside I didn't think he was as rusty as people have been making out - thought he put in a decent shift, 16 tackles 0 missed.

That said, I don't really like seeing him at 8, definitely his weakest position in the backrow.

Reckon we'll open up a two score lead by half time. If Wasps really come out hard and can get a score early doors second half it will keep the game honest to the 80 and with the bench impact Leinster will be creeping in and around the bookies spread. If Wasps are out of contention when the bench comes on it will be cricket scores.

troyzer

26-6

sydthebeat

32-13

thebaz

Buer wrote: »

Not directing this at you specifically thebaz but I don't get the relatively common desire/excitement to see the above back row.

for me -its cause i see the 3 as our best back rowers - all can play 7 - van derflier is the best 7 - Leavy can play either side , probably 7 is best - and SOB is probably best at 6 - I like Conan , but at the highest level not sure he can cut it as the other 3. just my thoughts.

Kevski

thebaz wrote: »

for me -its cause i see the 3 as our best back rowers - all can play 7 - van derflier is the best 7 - Leavy can play either side , probably 7 is best - and SOB is probably best at 6 - I like Conan , but at the highest level not sure he can cut it as the other 3. just my thoughts.

Is SOB a better 8 than Conan though? I don’t think he is.

prawnsambo

thebaz wrote: »

for me -its cause i see the 3 as our best back rowers - all can play 7 - van derflier is the best 7 - Leavy can play either side , probably 7 is best - and SOB is probably best at 6 - I like Conan , but at the highest level not sure he can cut it as the other 3. just my thoughts.

The funny (odd) thing about this is that Conan is an out and out 8. There may well be others coming through (Doris and Deegan) but the last out and out 8 we had was Heaslip. Who also seemed to attract questions about what he did better than other back rows.

thebaz

prawnsambo wrote: »

The funny (odd) thing about this is that Conan is an out and out 8. There may well be others coming through (Doris and Deegan) but the last out and out 8 we had was Heaslip. Who also seemed to attract questions about what he did better than other back rows.

Conan is an out and out 8 - dont think he is anywhere near the standard of Heasplip - particularly in big high level games - maybe he will - Deegan is meant to be good.

stephen_n

I really think Conan is under appreciated by a lot of Leinster fans. He’s a skillful intelligent 8 and has really improved his overall game in the last 12 months. 8 is a specialist position, playing a 6 or 7 then, because they are better 6’s or 7’s just doesn’t make sense to me.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

I really think Conan is under appreciated by a lot of Leinster fans. He’s a skillful intelligent 8 and has really improved his overall game in the last 12 months. 8 is a specialist position, playing a 6 or 7 then, because they are better 6’s or 7’s just doesn’t make sense to me.

I think Conan has come on massively in the past 12 months. Cementing his spot as Leinster's first choice 8 has seen him step up to a level that I didn't think he possessed. I think it will take a couple of years for opinions to change on him, generally, but I don't see anyone coming close to him as a No. 8 at Leinster right now.

He used get a huge amount of plaudits for performances like his 3 tries against Montpellier. Right place, right time stuff for the most part (which is a skill in itself). But performances such as the Exeter double header and the 3rd test in Australia showed a work rate and ability to mix it in the trenches that I hadn't seen before. He still lacks any threat to opposition ruck ball but that's acceptable given he is more of a tackle maker and rucker whilst others jackal; it is something he will need to develop though if he wants to be a consistent test player.

prawnsambo

thebaz wrote: »

Conan is an out and out 8 - dont think he is anywhere near the standard of Heasplip - particularly in big high level games - maybe he will - Deegan is meant to be good.

He's a better ball carrier than Heaslip ever was, he's a better offloader and support runner, he's quicker and more powerful. He just hasn't the wealth of experience that Heaslip was able to draw on that made him a difficult player to play against. But his ceiling hasn't been reached yet and his scrummaging work is top notch.

Peregrine

troyzer

Peregrine wrote: »

Can we just close the thread there?

'Nuff said.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's a better ball carrier than Heaslip ever was, he's a better offloader and support runner, he's quicker and more powerful. He just hasn't the wealth of experience that Heaslip was able to draw on that made him a difficult player to play against. But his ceiling hasn't been reached yet and his scrummaging work is top notch.

Heaslip was a phenomenal carrier in his younger days but adapted his game as time went on.


Conan is not and never will be in his class, not even close.

Peregrine

troyzer wrote: »

Can we just close the thread there?

'Nuff said.

Buer

stephen_n wrote: »

I really think Conan is under appreciated by a lot of Leinster fans. He’s a skillful intelligent 8 and has really improved his overall game in the last 12 months. 8 is a specialist position, playing a 6 or 7 then, because they are better 6’s or 7’s just doesn’t make sense to me.

Agreed. Yes, the lines between the back row positions have been blurred more and more in recent years. But the No. 8 still has a place in the game. The ability to control and dictate from the base of the scrum is still an important ability.

We don't have another back row player who can do it to that level. Small things like the VDF try against the Dragons (an 8/7 move off the base) or there was a scrum against the Scarlets in the Pro14 final where he picked and exploded off the base to gain about 10-15m which set in motion the series of phases leading to our first try. It gives another dimension to Leinster's game that allows them keep the opposition guessing and makes space for others even if we don't use him.

thebaz

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's a better ball carrier than Heaslip ever was, he's a better offloader and support runner, he's quicker and more powerful. He just hasn't the wealth of experience that Heaslip was able to draw on that made him a difficult player to play against. But his ceiling hasn't been reached yet and his scrummaging work is top notch.

I would disagree , dont think Conan is as good an all round 8 as Healip - yet - particulrly in big games - many people didnt rate heaslip , but his record in big games was outstanding . Hopefully Conan fulfills his undoubted talent , and becoms as valuable player as Jamie.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

He's a better ball carrier than Heaslip ever was, he's a better offloader and support runner, he's quicker and more powerful. He just hasn't the wealth of experience that Heaslip was able to draw on that made him a difficult player to play against. But his ceiling hasn't been reached yet and his scrummaging work is top notch.

I think you are underestimating Heaslip here by an incredible amount and I say that after praising Conan in other posts.

errlloyd

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

But Leinster must be acutely aware that the last time Wasps came to the RDS, it was one of the worst performances that they have put out on that soil. Wrongs will want to be righted.

34-15

Ah here, last time Wasps came to Dublin we unceremoniously dumped them out of the cup. Spilly Le Roux did his bit, but mr in vogue Danny Cipriani was ruined that day. It's history, tonight is business.

prawnsambo

Former Former wrote: »

Heaslip was a phenomenal carrier in his younger days but adapted his game as time went on.


Conan is not and never will be in his class.

Heaslip was a decent ball carrier. I think 'phenomenal' is overstating it. And I disagree on his class. The difference is Heaslip had very little competition for his shirt and maintained a high standard regardless. So the gap always looked huge between Heaslip and the next best.

prawnsambo

Buer wrote: »

I think you are underestimating Heaslip here by an incredible amount and I say that after praising Conan in other posts.

I'm actually not. As Heaslip got older, his carrying suffered and he became more adept at dictating the terms of contact to give go forward ball and a quick recycle. Conan doesn't do that as well as Heaslip, but his skillset is different. I like what he brings in acceleration, ball handling and support running. He's as quick as many backs at full gallop.

errlloyd

errlloyd wrote: »

Ah here, last time Wasps came to Dublin we unceremoniously dumped them out of the cup. Spilly Le Roux did his bit, but mr in vogue Danny Cipriani was ruined that day. It's history, tonight is business.

Please don't wear the hat again this week...

Clegg

Cipriani had a stinker that day.

Was sidestepped by Furlong iirc.

Buer

prawnsambo wrote: »

Heaslip was a decent ball carrier. I think 'phenomenal' is overstating it. And I disagree on his class. The difference is Heaslip had very little competition for his shirt and maintained a high standard regardless. So the gap always looked huge between Heaslip and the next best.

It was huge because he was so far ahead of the competition. Stander was available when Heaslip was the Irish No. 8....actually Stander's first season in green was the year Heaslip was nominated for the WPOTY award for the second time.

If anyone recalls Heaslip 2009-2011, I think phenomenal might be pretty accurate. His carrying stepped up to a level which I don't think we've seen from any Leinster No. 8, particularly the season after Elsom left when it fell upon him. He was popping up everywhere, breaking tackles, scoring tries.

Conan is the best No. 8 at Leinster comfortably. He's not in the same ballpark as Heaslip at this point, however. Heaslip was the starting test No. 8 for the Lions on back to back tours. Conan has just about managed to be the starting No. 8 for Ireland in back to back matches.

Former Former

prawnsambo wrote: »

Heaslip was a decent ball carrier. I think 'phenomenal' is overstating it. And I disagree on his class. The difference is Heaslip had very little competition for his shirt and maintained a high standard regardless. So the gap always looked huge between Heaslip and the next best.

I'm not sure what to say to this.

Heaslip belongs in the POC/BOD/Sexton class of Irish players who could legitimately have claimed to be one of the best in the world in their position over many years. (Edit; Murray en route to that club too)

Conan is decent but he's 26 and we're still talking about him stepping up and reaching his ceiling. Heaslip was 25 when he started all three Lions tests in South Africa. Conan isn't in the same postcode.

irishbucsfan

Buer wrote: »

It was huge because he was so far ahead of the competition. Stander was available when Heaslip was the Irish No. 8....actually Stander's first season in green was the year Heaslip was nominated for the WPOTY award for the second time.

If anyone recalls Heaslip 2009-2011, I think phenomenal might be pretty accurate. His carrying stepped up to a level which I don't think we've seen from any Leinster No. 8, particularly the season after Elsom left when it fell upon him. He was popping up everywhere, breaking tackles, scoring tries.

Conan is the best No. 8 at Leinster comfortably. He's not in the same ballpark as Heaslip at this point, however.

Even the year before the king left, Heaslip had some pretty breathtaking carries

Kevski

Clegg wrote: »

Cipriani had a stinker that day.

Was sidestepped by Furlong iirc.

I’d forgotten about that!

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/848504307179814912

Dave_The_Sheep

Probably one of the best (if not the best) games Carbery had for Leinster.

*sniff*

troyzer

Kevski wrote: »

I’d forgotten about that!

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/848504307179814912

Yeah but to be fair, Tadhg Furlong isn't actually human.

stephen_n

Heaslip was a once in a generation player, comparing Conan to him is really not a fair benchmark at all.

Podge_irl

prawnsambo wrote: »

Heaslip was a decent ball carrier. I think 'phenomenal' is overstating it. And I disagree on his class. The difference is Heaslip had very little competition for his shirt and maintained a high standard regardless. So the gap always looked huge between Heaslip and the next best.

Heaslip in his early days got **** for being nothing but a great ball carrier. He was essentially just incredibly adaptable and fulfilled whatever role was required of him. Sometimes that was hard, close in carrying, sometimes it was more rangy carrying and sometimes it was nothing but carrying off the base of the scrum and spending the rest of the time in rucks.

There is no "yet" when it comes to comparing Conan and Heaslip. The former is not in the same ballpark and never will be. That is not a slight on Conan.

Faugheen

Podge_irl wrote: »

prawnsambo wrote: »

Heaslip was a decent ball carrier. I think 'phenomenal' is overstating it. And I disagree on his class. The difference is Heaslip had very little competition for his shirt and maintained a high standard regardless. So the gap always looked huge between Heaslip and the next best.

Heaslip in his early days got **** for being nothing but a great ball carrier. He was essentially just incredibly adaptable and fulfilled whatever role was required of him. Sometimes that was hard, close in carrying, sometimes it was more rangy carrying and sometimes it was nothing but carrying off the base of the scrum and spending the rest of the time in rucks.

There is no "yet" when it comes to comparing Conan and Heaslip. The former is not in the same ballpark and never will be. That is not a slight on Conan.

All of this. Some people were never happy when it came to Heaslip when he's one of the best players this Island had ever produced.

It's not fair to expect Conan to reach that level of greatness, because the only Irish back-rower at the moment that can reach that ball-park is Josh van der Flier.

Just so we're clear this group of "some people" we're almost exclusively from South of Dublin and as Heaslip modified his game the argument against him modified with it. It was always, always a nonsense. He's one of our best ever.

Dave_The_Sheep

Two tickets for the South stand available (free) if anyone wants them, as I unexpectedly can't go last minute. I can email them on. PM me yer email address.

[edit] Gone.

vienne86

Looking forward to this, now that the weather has improved. Delighted with the team - fab back row, and I think Conan is a better 8 than SOB, so on form, SOB had to drop to the bench. Pity we have to leave JGP out, but Luke McGrath has been going well for us. TBP would make a great start to our campaign.

prawnsambo

Oh Lord. I'm usually one of those posters who wades in when somebody slights Heaslip. It's such fun to be on the other side of that.

irishbucsfan

Hadlee Red Camp wrote: »

Just so we're clear this group of "some people" we're almost exclusively from South of Dublin and as Heaslip modified his game the argument against him modified with it. It was always, always a nonsense. He's one of our best ever.

I thought you were railing against SouthDublin here for not appreciating a true genius from the true heartland and got excited here, but then I realised you miswrote what I read, so I’ll have to review my thanks for this post and get back to you

troyzer

Two free north stand tickets if anyone wants them.

I'm in the Horseshow at the moment but I'll be waddling over in a bit.

Clegg

All this talk of when Heaslip broke into the Leinster squad has me reminiscing of the halcyon days of mid 00's Leinster. 'Downtown' Gary Browne, Nathan Spooner, Gordon Darcy's mullet. Great lads, great rugby, fantastic hair.

Softest bunch of players you could imagine. Thank Christ we're a million miles removed from that **** show.