Star Wars: The Mandalorian [** Spoilers **] [Disney+] (US Pace)

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120471504#Comment_120471504

The curse of being pretty much the only Mandalorian who looked in any way distinct from the rest of the non-main character Mandalorians, as well as the only Mandalorian who had a family member that we've seen. He was always going to be the sacrificial lamb.

No spoilers, but just my own theory below.

Spoiler Warning

I'm guessing the Armourer is working with Moff Gideon. She managed to get out of there pretty sharpish, and I think we've already been told only Mandalorians know how to properly work with beskar and make armour from it. Though where she had the time and space to make all that armour in secret may not make a lot of sense. Plus the episode was called 'The Spies', so I'm guessing that means there's a spy amongst the Mandalorians.

Relikk

Well that felt infinitely more cinematic than any other episode this season, and it even had wipe transitions.

pixelburp

Hey, that was the first episode that in the main I actually enjoyed; finally felt like some elements had pay offs, events had a purpose beyond the Fetch Quest template. Superficial fun and adventure, even if the core drama remained a hard sell given our heroes were all wearing buckets. The big dramatic sacrifice underwhelming given we never saw the guy's face.

Moff Gideon's little monologue was a touch too Saturday Morning Cartoon, but nothing ruinous. The secret council stuff was interesting enough, with Project Necromancer presumably a big nod towards where Palpatine came from.

The Thrawn stuff was ... curious cos I must ask my non-expert wife what she made of that. It was so obviously for the fans, but I feel like a more normally structured show would have thrown more rumour and hints about this big Admiral supposedly active, not Gideon. Just came off like the show assumed everyone would know who Thrawn is and why he's a Big Deal. Even the Ashoka trailer was the same; ooooh Thrawn! Who, says viewers?

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120478790#Comment_120478790

The Thrawn stuff was ... curious cos I must ask my non-expert wife what she made of that. It was so obviously for the fans, but I feel like a more normally structured show would have thrown more rumour and hints about this big Admiral supposedly active, not Gideon. 

Well he was flagged as an important figure in the Magistrate episode but I suppose you'd expect him to be built up a bit more than that...

Project Necromancer presumably a big nod towards where Palpatine came from.

I wonder is this a sly callback to Tolkien too: Sauron resurfaced in The Hobbit as the mysterious Necromancer before revealing his true identity, a bit like Palpatine coming back in the guise of Snoke, if that is actually what happened...

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479715#Comment_120479715

I don't even remember his mention from that episode. TBH it's just another reminder how unstructured the whole season has been: obviously we don't know where or how it'll actually end but you'd feel that a traditional show would drop these hints, nods and suggestions someone big from the Empire was still at large. Bigger than Gideon; the classic bait and switch where we thought Gideon was the guy pulling the strings because each episode would drop a hint or moment where soemthing in the shadows was scheming. It's not like anyone genuinely believed Gideon was dead, so the fun twist would have been ... oh, it's Thrawn!

Loafing Oaf

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120479883#Comment_120479883

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcz9rXKnDjQ

This registered with me that this guy would be coming up in a significant way at some stage, and I don't think I'd heard of him before. But like I say in a conventional standalone drama he'd surely have been built up more than this

CastorTroy

The problem the live action series face is they have to reintroduce characters that appeared in the animated series to live action without it feeling like the people who didn't watch the animated series are missing a lot. Like Thrawn made his debut in Rebels and is based on the character from the (now non-canon) Expanded Universe novels.

It looks like Ahsoka will involve characters from Rebels as well, but will they have expected everyone to have watched Rebels, since a lot of people avoid animated shows for some reason?

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480210#Comment_120480210

It's a bit of an issue I've felt since Season 2, where it feels like they just expect a lot of viewers to get all these references and characters from the animated shows. Even the Cad Bane guy from Book of Boba Fett. It felt like that was supposed to be a huge reveal, but I didn't have a clue who he was, if he had any connection to Fett etc

Slydice

Might help to know that Filoni has form in bringing and introducing a legendary character like Thrawn who is already well established in other stories into a new show he's working on.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120480651#Comment_120480651

I'd put money on this expectation. Not like the show needs to grind to a halt while someone explains why some formerly animated character appearing is important, but the way they're just dropped into stories without any context, but lots of "ooh check out this guy" energy tips the hat towards a presumption of knowledge.

Foxtrol

Thrawn just having a few passing reference as a set up is pure Star Wars given The Emperor barely got mentioned in Episode 4. Other bad guys are just dropped in out of no where with no build up.

Overall quality this season is hit and miss but they're doing a fine job with layering in characters from the animation series. Casual SW viewers get enough to understand them within the specific story. Everyone watching doesn't need to know every backstory detail of every character - there are very few shows you get this so few go in with that expectation.

Really tends to be just the watchers who want to get every reference without investing their time in the other shows that complain about missing out on something important. They still have all they need to enjoy an episode, it is more the idea of FOMO is their issue.

Varik

Not like people have to find an out of print young jedi, scroll dead links for a pdf of some ancient comic, or play a game to find out why they're giving page space in a book to some jedi doorman named kyle katarn.

Everything is on Disney plus, they've even got episodes essential playlists to catch you up. Ashoka has one with all her important clone wars rebels and her 2 current live action episodes plus the recent tales.

They've got a general clone war one too, 120 ish episodes down to 20ish.

ixoy

You could watch the essential episodes but you'd lose out on knowing who everyone else is no?

More pointedly viewers should not feel confused about feeling they've missed something if they watched every episode of a particular show,not aware that the story was started in an older animated series.

Varik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486160#Comment_120486160

Not really much lost from essential clone war but even if someone does become important you've then got the later ashoka and it gone now but they had an essential for andor with rougue one and sauls episodes. The mandalorian has it's own playlists with his book of boba episodes in it.

It all really isn't a bunch of separate shows, but one large series with individually named seasons.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120486160#Comment_120486160

Practically every single TV show and movie in history hasn't shown every detail of backstory for every character and audiences have survived perfectly fine.

Most of the time while being introduced to a character you're told something about their backstory rather than shown it. As a viewer you're given enough for it to make sense for the story they're telling in this specific show.

This is really no different, aside from viewers in some cases having an opportunity to go back and see a character's backstory if they choose.

It is pure FOMO from some that is giving a sense of 'missing something'. If people didn't know the other shows were out there there wouldn't be an issue.

pixelburp

I said it already but my own personal problem isn't "they should explain every new character's upon appearance", but the manner in which big, important characters are dropped into a narrative - in this case in the 11th Hour - without any attempt at groundwork, hints or the kind of natural structural development that literally any other fictional narrative would feel required to do.

Watch that penultimate episode of Mandalorian through the eyes of someone with no strong interest in Star Wars and you get an odd scene of everyone talking about Thorn? Thran? Some dude everyone's wondering where he is? I never believe any piece of pop-culture should have "Required Reading" so to speak as a means to handwave away the kind of basic world-building or narrative legwork that should be reasonably expected.

And in this case, it was easily done as well! So many prior episodes spent time hinting, waggling its eyebrows that Gideon might still be alive - ie he was clearly alive - and yeah turns out he was but-shut-up-guys-whatabout-Thrawn? Ach, it's just lazy and kinda assumes anyone watching Star Wars watches All The Star Wars.

And that's been a problem throughout Season 3 - laziness.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487896#Comment_120487896

Agreed. It's not about the show not explaining everything about the characters, but there is definitely an element of assumed knowledge. The same episode in Season 2 which introduced Ahsoka also ended with the reveal that she was searching for Thrawn. Who are you? Who is Thrawn? Why are you searching for him? Since then we've had a season of Boba Fett where Ahsoka showed up for an episode with Luke (but no mention of Thrawn that I recall), and now we're most of the way through season 3 of The Mandalorian, and all of a sudden Thrawn is being mentioned again. People who watched the animated stuff know why Ahsoka is searching for Thrawn and why he's such a danger. Everyone else has been left hanging and still have no real answers.

The nuggets of info are there and enough that viewers aren't completely lost, but it's also abundantly clear that these are references to important stories/characters that most people won't know about. We're not learning the info as Din or someone else is learning the info.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120487896#Comment_120487896

What 'required reading' is necessary for this episode of the Mandalorian? No one was 'dropped into a narrative', a potential new character was just mentioned in passing.

Right now all a viewer needs to know is that there is a character out there that is very highly respected by the Imperials, has been out of the picture for a while with an uncertain return date, and appears that Gideon sees him as a rival and appears to want to expedite his efforts before he might return.

If they switched the Thrawn name to an unknown new mysterious character in this situation and introduced it in the exact same way there'd be no issue raised here - it would just be an obvious big bad set up for a cliffhanger/next season, like many shows have done throughout the history of TV when you get to the last few episodes of a season. I can say that with confidence as I've seen no complaints about the show introducing several other new Imperial characters and projects that we hadn't heard before in the Mandalorian at the exact same scene as Thrawn was mentioned.

Thrawn is seen as an issue for some due to pure FOMO. For the episode just passed no one needs to know anything else about Thrawn, it just frustrates a few that other viewers know more than they do.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488174#Comment_120488174

I think it's more than just FOMO. Bo Katan is from the animated shows, but I think her introduction into the live action series etc has been fine. There's obviously a history and backstory we don't know about, but it also doesn't feel like anything is missing. The Grand Inquisitor who was in Kenobi, I know he was in the animated series, but again it didn't feel like any information was missing. Cad Bane was in an animated series, and although I thought his intro into the live action show was a bit sketchy (he was clearly introduced as someone to be feared or someone substantial, but there was nothing in the show to really back it up), it was fine.

Ahsoka and Thrawn, there's clearly a lot of history and backstory there where they're building to a continuance of an on-going story from the animated show, but far too early and without giving enough information to people who haven't seen the animated show. Fear of missing out only becomes an issue when they've made it too clear that there's pertinent information you're missing. I think if Ahsoka hadn't mentioned Thrawn in her first appearance or there was no hinting at that, it would have been much better. Instead, people who haven't seen the animated stuff know there's important information missing.

Varik

For Cad bane as said you pretty much get the jist of it from his scary voice and mannerisms, and for Thrawn his title of the important sounding grand admiral does enough with the same for Gideon at the start with the Moff title. The name inquisition is enough to tell us everything we need to know about them.

Going far back to the start of the streaming for the star wars stuff it was far more unknown for the general public what a mandalorian was.

From random Star wars stuff that is important being drop in it's usually not characters, operation cinder for Bill burr's character being one. That's something that drove him to blow their cover and shoot a guy and you only get a bit of context there and not the real secret only know to the big bads and the audience reason for operation cinder. Operation cinder only being in games and books to this point.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488225#Comment_120488225

I don't understand the frustration as that is a very common story telling device for every medium - one character searching for another and the viewer initially isn't let in to the backstory, they learn more as the story develops.

This approach rarely raises the concerns we're seeing in this thread, as the viewers understand they'll be told the necessary information at some stage. The difference here seems to be that some fear they're missing out on key information they need because others might have it already.

At this stage even viewers of the animated series do not know if something has happened between Asoka and Thrawn since Rebels - her approach to finding him in her Mandalorian introduction seems very weird without more context given how Rebels ended. There are also at least six Thrawn books released that are cannon to make things potentially even more complicated.

Viewers are going to be told plenty enough to enjoy the show no matter their previous knowledge. If you're just watching the Mandalorian then you're just going to have to have patience, like you do with many shows/movies/books.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488310#Comment_120488310

Again, I think there's a difference between waiting for information, and knowing there's information missing. If the animated shows didn't exist and this was just a show setting up future characters/spin-off, they wouldn't have set up the story of Ahsoka & Thrawn so early, or would have explained it better.

If we just had Ahsoka's appearance last season with no mention of Thrawn, fine. If we had the mention of Thrawn like in this past episode, fine. Setting up the story of the two of them so far in advance with so little information, when people know there is a backstory there in other media, is just weak, because it means there's pertinent information not that we're waiting on, but that already exists and hasn't been explained.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488511#Comment_120488511

But there isn't any pertinent information 'missing'. Nothing has been held back at this point that impacts the viewer of the Mandalorian TV show - knowing more about who Thrawn is, where he is, how he got there, or why Ahsoka was chasing him has zero impact on overall Mandalorian narrative.

You're making it seem strange that there is a long building set-up for a key character arriving on screen, when even within Star Wars the 'big bad' of the Original Trilogy doesn't appear in person until the third movie and decades later we still haven't gotten a proper origin back story of the character on screen.

Again, what you're describing is basically FOMO - the fear you're missing out on something that others may or may not know or be experiencing.

If anything, this points to them doing a great job with the set-up, they have people demanding more despite it adding zero value to the current story.

Penn

It adds little to the current Mandalorian story, but the current story is part of a whole. It's the basis of the next Star Wars show. My point is that they set that up too far in advance to play on people's prior knowledge of the animated shows. A clear reference that characters and stories from the animated shows will be continuing in live action. It's too clear that there's existing information missing, as opposed to new information simply not yet revealed.

Again, it's why I have no issue with the likes of Bo Katan. I know there's a lot about her and her story that I don't know, but it's never felt like there's anything I should know that I don't. I think that's all been pretty well revealed as and when required. But like you said, the history of Ahsoka and Thrawn has little impact on the Mandalorian. The issue is it shouldn't have been made a pretty big deal of last season, where Ahsoka, a character we just met, is revealed to be tracking down Thrawn, a character we don't know, for reasons we don't know, and then there's zero advancement in the story for 2 years. It makes sense to people who watched the animated shows, but to everyone else it's something that's been really poorly handled because it currently means nothing, but it's obviously meant to mean something.

I'm just giving my view as someone who hasn't seen the animated shows. That particular setup for an upcoming story arc in a new spinoff feels like it's been poorly handled and explained compared to other things they've introduced from the animated shows.

flazio

There's two things at play here. Nice to know, need to know. If you think back to other times there were more than one series set in the same universe, Buffy and Angel for example, generally when you borrow a character from another series, you put them back as you found them.

Disney properties have been breaking this a lot lately.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488764#Comment_120488764

I'm just giving my view as someone who hasn't seen the animated shows. That particular setup for an upcoming story arc in a new spinoff feels like it's been poorly handled and explained compared to other things they've introduced from the animated shows.

That's the nub of it all. This is ultimately talking around something that structurally was shoddily handled compared with in series examples that were better approached. Effectively blaming the viewer for not StarWars'ing right flies in the face of basic story structure and the broadly slapdash season we're finishing.

Thrawn is just a single example of broader rot in what has been a deeply frustrating, all over the place run of TV. Dripping Thrawn in at the 11th hour with no pretext felt like another example of lazy presumption.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488764#Comment_120488764

It was never made a pretty big deal last season - it got a passing reference from a guest star, like several other guest stars mentioned random things that might or might not go somewhere (some did and some didnt).

I don't understand why people are getting frustrated about information that has no impact on this show to date and is likely tied to the one that isn't released until August. We have no idea if all the key pieces of information will be revealed in a flashback in the first few minutes of the show.

An element of storytelling is to hold back information to build suspense. In this case you get a choice on how you deal with it, you either wait to hear more like the majority of casual watchers who have no idea there are animated shows that are tied in or you go and watch those shows yourself and get some additional background.

You're entitled to your view but to me it doesn't make any sense as this is nothing like the intro to the other animated characters because they've barely started. If key pieces of information are never revealed then I'll stand right beside you in saying it is poorly handled but the information is absolutely not 'missing' currently just because certain viewers fear they're missing out on what others know already.

I'd again argue that the responses here show that they've done a fantastic job setting up the spinoff, having spent so little time on it yet having people frustrated to know more.

pixelburp

I know who Thrawn is, I've read Heir to the Empire back when it was only out and was aware he returned in the cartoons; I still think the introduction was shít writing. It's nothing to do with FOMO just a frustration this shoddy show would spend a major set piece talking about a guy hitherto unmentioned in any real, functional sense of fundamental writing.

Foxtrol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488824#Comment_120488824

Fully agree there is a valid argument to be made with other Disney or even SW properties regarding putting them back, however in this situation Thrawn is absolutely 'nice to know' currently.

There is no need to know anything about him yet.

Penn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120488909#Comment_120488909

I think it was made a big deal out of last season because in our first introduction to a new Jedi, her whole motive in the episode is that she's hunting down this guy named Thrawn. And it went nowhere. That's a setup to something that's to come.... and then it didn't, and hasn't. Like I said, if there was no mention of Thrawn in Ahsoka's first episode, it would have been fine. But they were clearly alluding to something from the animated shows. Unfortunately, that's inescapable. When they'd already started bringing in characters from the animated shows like Bo Katan, they can't act like Ahsoka mentioning Thrawn isn't a reference to their story from the animated shows.

I don't know what their story was in the animated shows. I don't know why she's hunting him (not just someone from the Empire, but specifically him), how their story ended in the animated show etc. That will obviously be explained in the Ahsoka show. But to have introduced it in the Mandalorian show where it has no relevance or payoff is to play up to one part of the audience at the expense of the others. It goes beyond an Easter egg or throwaway reference, it was made to feel in the Mandalorian show that it will be important going forward, but the non-animated show watchers were given no information as to why.

It was just too early to be doing that if the Ahsoka show wasn't even announced at that stage (I'm sure it was probably agreed behind the scenes, but it wasn't announced). A continuation of a storyline and characters from an animated show to setup their unannounced future spinoff in the middle of the season of a show which is already setting up another spinoff for Boba Fett.... it's just messy.

If they'd just introduced Ahsoka in Mando S2 with no mention of Thrawn, then mentioned Thrawn in last week's episode, then in the Ahsoka show (or even post credits of Mando S3) give an explanation as to how they're connected and that Ahsoka is hunting Thrawn... perfect. I'd have had no issues with that.