The Irish Language and the Irish Government

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

To be correct about it, the majority of people consider themselves Irish but native speakers of English.

A huge number of people who don't speak Irish themselves nevertheless support the position Irish has in our society and want their own children to speak the language.

There is a tendency among some to want to marginalise the language, to deny or undermine its position in our society and suggest that it is "dead" or that we would be better off if it was. I don't understand that mentality.

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

That they use. If it has to be said, English isn't Irish. How is letting Irish go to be replaced by English maintaining Irish individuality when it comes to language?

Irish has long been replaced by English language. English is the main if not only language for the majority of Irish people.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Any evidence to back up this claim? As I said, it seems rather unlikely that people would give such a misleading answer.

Population aged 15-19 who speak irish inside school only= 115753
Population aged 15 - 19 who speak Irish in and out of school = 2723
So that's 2.3% of 15-19 year olds speaking Irish in school who also speak it outside. That would seem to me to support the claim that the majority are doing as part of their studies.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A huge number of people who don't speak Irish themselves nevertheless support the position the Irish language has in our society and want their own children to speak the language.

There is a tendency among some to want to marginalise the language, to deny or undermine its position in our society and suggest that it is "dead" or that we would be better off if it was. I don't understand that mentality.

Nobody has said we would be better off if it was dead. That is just another strawman.

It's position in society is that it is being spoken by a smaller and smaller number of people every year. That is reality and the denials of reality are from those who think it is doing well. Arguably, Polish is now spoken more widely in Ireland than Irish.

You are correct though about the sentimental attraction of people to aspects of our cultural heritage that they can't be bothered to support, whether that is through speaking the language or going to watch the musicians etc. If it is effort rather than platitude, then they are not interested.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Nobody has said we would be better off if it was dead. That is just another strawman.

No it's not. Many people insist, falsely, that Irish is a dead language. Others suggest that Ireland would be better off without Irish. I am speaking of my experiance generally, not specifically in this thread.

You are correct though about the sentimental attraction of people to aspects of our cultural heritage that they can't be bothered to support, whether that is through speaking the language or going to watch the musicians etc. If it is effort rather than platitude, then they are not interested.

Im not sure that is entirely fair. There is widespread demand for Irish medium education for example. Wanting your own children to be educated through a language demonstrates that parents attach a considerable importance to the language. Most of those parents don't speak Irish themselves. One imagines that they may feel that they were failed by the state because the way Irish was thaught to them was not sufficient to give them fluency in the languge, and they want their children to have a better opportunity to become fluent in Irish than they had. Certainly sending your child to an Irish medium school is not the easy option given that they are often stuck in prefabs and it is harder to help you child with their homework and it often means an extra commitment from parents to learn Irish along with their kids.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

No it's not. Many people insist, falsely, that Irish is a dead language. Others suggest that Ireland would be better off without Irish. I am speaking of my experiance generally, not specifically in this thread.



Im not sure that is entirely fair. There is widespread demand for Irish medium education for example. Wanting your own children to be educated through a language demonstrates that parents attach a considerable importance to the language. Most of those parents don't speak Irish themselves. One imagines that they may feel that they were failed by the state because the way Irish was thaught to them was not sufficient to give them fluency in the languge, and they want their children to have a better opportunity to become fluent in Irish than they had. Certainly sending your child to an Irish medium school is not the easy option given that they are often stuck in prefabs and it is harder to help you child with their homework and it often means an extra commitment from parents to learn Irish along with their kids.

Remove the 10% extra for the Leaving Certificate and see whether the desire to educate through the Irish language remains. A lot of South Dublin mammies want their kids to go to the right university, and if you can't afford the private school, the Gaelscoil with the extra 10% and no foreigners is the next best choice.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Remove the 10% extra for the Leaving Certificate and see whether the desire to educate through the Irish language remains. A lot of South Dublin mammies want their kids to go to the right university, and if you can't afford the private school, the Gaelscoil with the extra 10% and no foreigners is the next best choice.

You don't get ten percent extra, you get ten percent of the marks you did'nt get, so if you get 80% in the exam you can only get 2% added on for doing it through Irish. It's a recognition of the added difficulty of doing the exams through Irish because of the lack of resources available. It rarely effects your leaving cert points because the added % is usually not enough to bring you from one grade to the next. If all you want is to get your kids into university, there are much easier ways.

Since when do Gaelscoils not have foreigners? Good luck finding one that have no foreign pupils.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Since when do Gaelscoils not have foreigners? Good luck finding one that have no foreign pupils.

We had a whole thread on that about a year ago.

recedite

Matt Barrett wrote: »

None mentioned began using English due to an influx of Immigrants. Immigrants came after the indigenous peoples were put to the back.
Ireland is different. The majority consider themselves Irish. The majority of NZ do not consider themselves Maori and the majority of U.S. citizens do not consider themselves Apache. Any comparisons are a bit silly really.

The majority of NZ consider themselves New Zealanders (not Maori) and the majority of U.S. citizens consider themselves Americans (not native americans). Of course the majority of Irish consider themselves Irish. But our everyday language does not distinguish between the true gael and those who are not. You used the term "Anglicised Irish" in a derogatory way, but that is not a common terminology.
Immigrants tend to congregate in cities, which is also where political power tends to be most concentrated.
Take London as an example - very different voting patterns to the surrounding areas in the Brexit referendum. A large proportion of the people there (probably the majority) are immigrants (1st, 2nd or 3rd generation) It is noticeable that they do not describe themselves as "English" instead they identify as "British". That particular use of language is interesting. We do not have any equivalent words available here in Ireland, hence they will simply identify as "Irish".
Maybe in the distant future there will be some who identify as Irish and others who simply identify as "EU citizens"

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The fact remains Ireland has a language unique to it. Using English doesn't nor will ever take away from that. How much money the state invests in it is of course up for debate but suggesting we should let it go altogether because we currently use English is a nonsense. Anglicised Irish folk need get over it.

Has anybody actually said that? Here's what was said...

blanch152 wrote: »

Oh, nobody is saying eliminate Irish or anything like that. We should remember it and celebrate it like other parts of our heritage.

Imreoir2

So, as of this morning we have a new Minister of State for the Gaeltacht, Seán Kyne TD, he replaces Joe McHugh TD who became Ministr of Education. The main tasks he faces is the language planning process in the Gaeltacht, and the amendment to the Official Lanugages Act 2003, which we have been waiting for since 2013 I think.

What do you think he needs to do to make a success of his time as Minister of State for the Gaeltacht?

Hotblack Desiato

Imreoir2 wrote: »

A huge number of people who don't speak Irish themselves nevertheless support the position Irish has in our society and want their own children to speak the language.

Citation needed.

NB not all of the demand for gaelscoil places is down to a love of the language, some is down to snobbery and racism.

Hotblack Desiato

blanch152 wrote: »

Arguably, Polish is now spoken more widely in Ireland than Irish.

Not arguably, it's a fact and Polish isn't the only one.

Hotblack Desiato

Imreoir2 wrote: »

What do you think he needs to do to make a success of his time as Minister of State for the Gaeltacht?

Implement a policy of benign neglect. Let the language sink or swim on its own merits. I actually think that the State ceasing to promote Irish using public money would actually be beneficial to it. Every State intervention since independence has been detrimental to the language.

Imreoir2

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

NB not all of the demand for gaelscoil places is down to a love of the language, some is down to snobbery and racism.

Citation Needed!

The claim is often made by those with a long track record of denigrating the Irish language, but I have never seen any evidence to support the claim.

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Every State intervention since independence has been detrimental to the language.

God help us, I think this thread is a waste of time if this is the quality of the opinion available.

zapitastas

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Citation needed.

NB not all of the demand for gaelscoil places is down to a love of the language, some is down to snobbery and racism.

Where does this come from. Have you ever been in a gaelscoil? In some schools where there is a shortage of places there is a requirement for the parents to be able to converse in Irish, in others there are no such requirement. They are attractive to a wide range of people as besides education through Irish they do not push a religious ethos. This goes back to the time of pearse. In areas that do not have an educate together they offer an alternative. In short , if you go into any gaelscoil, particularly in more rural areas there will be a multi ethnic collection of pupils

Hotblack Desiato

Can you really credibly claim that the relative lack of immigrant families sending their kids to gaelscoils has no influence whatsoever on the choices Irish families make? And whatever about primary, at second level the gaelscoil is going to be a lot more middle class than the local VEC

About religion, some gaelscoils claim to be multi-denominational but others are very Catholic indeed.

zapitastas

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Can you really credibly claim that the relative lack of immigrant families sending their kids to gaelscoils has no influence whatsoever on the choices Irish families make? And whatever about primary, at second level the gaelscoil is going to be a lot more middle class than the local VEC

About religion, some gaelscoils claim to be multi-denominational but others are very Catholic indeed.

There is nothing preventing anyone from learning the leanguage if they so wish. If they have a level of Irish then they can complete second level in a gaelscoil. In fact I know some people that entered secondary with poor Irish to start with. The imagined racist rationale for parents sending their children to a gaelscoil is bizarre

And the qualification about claiming to be multidenominational is also a little bizarre.

PeadarCo

zapitastas wrote:

The imagined racist rationale for parents sending their children to a gaelscoil is bizarre

From the Irish languages perspective all of that is irrelevant. What would be interesting to know is how many people who attend Gaelscoils speak Irish daily in later life when compared to normal/English speaking schools. If they don't result in an increase in Irish speakers they don't help the language as a whole. If you can't increase the pool of competent adult Irish speakers it will be very hard for any government to offer services in Irish in a practical fashion to those that want them.

Hotblack Desiato

Imreoir2 wrote: »

God help us, I think this thread is a waste of time if this is the quality of the opinion available.

Interesting that you claim an opinion is invalid simply because you disagree with it, but provide no arguments to counter it.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Citation Needed!

The claim is often made by those with a long track record of denigrating the Irish language, but I have never seen any evidence to support the claim.



God help us, I think this thread is a waste of time if this is the quality of the opinion available.

Dig out the thread.

There were some figures on the number of foreign nationals and special needs children in gaelscoileanna produced for that thread. Surprisingly, gaelscoileanna had a lower percentage of special needs and a lower proportion of foreign-born children.

blanch152

zapitastas wrote: »

There is nothing preventing anyone from learning the leanguage if they so wish. If they have a level of Irish then they can complete second level in a gaelscoil. In fact I know some people that entered secondary with poor Irish to start with. The imagined racist rationale for parents sending their children to a gaelscoil is bizarre

And the qualification about claiming to be multidenominational is also a little bizarre.

https://www.esri.ie/pubs/BKMNEXT198.pdf

"Gaelscoileanna have the fewest students with all three categories of SEN followed by Gaeltacht schools and English medium schools."


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-speaking-schools-far-less-likely-to-have-overseas-students-1.3296113


"A Department of Education analysis of school enrolment for 2015/2016 shows non-Irish nationals accounted for 10.6 per cent of pupils in primary education. By contrast, among all-Irish primary schools, this fell to 1.6 per cent. A similar pattern is repeated at second level."


Those are the facts. Gaelscoileanna have less non-nationals and less special needs. That makes them attractive to certain parents.

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

https://www.esri.ie/pubs/BKMNEXT198.pdf

"Gaelscoileanna have the fewest students with all three categories of SEN followed by Gaeltacht schools and English medium schools."


https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/irish-speaking-schools-far-less-likely-to-have-overseas-students-1.3296113


"A Department of Education analysis of school enrolment for 2015/2016 shows non-Irish nationals accounted for 10.6 per cent of pupils in primary education. By contrast, among all-Irish primary schools, this fell to 1.6 per cent. A similar pattern is repeated at second level."


Those are the facts. Gaelscoileanna have less non-nationals and less special needs. That makes them attractive to certain parents.

If these parents have a racist attitude then the forming and retention of such attitudes is their responsibility alone and has nothing to do with Gaelscoils

Imreoir2

I think the whole thing is a red herring. The majority of immigrants in this country hail from the UK. The notion that immigration has any impact on parents choices when it comes to education only ever seems to come up if it can be used to bash Gaelscoils. It seems to be nonexistant beyond that, and has never been backed up with evidence, it's based merely on anecdotes.

As far as I can see, some people want to believe it to be true, but they have no evidence to support their claims, much like many of the other commonly heard attacks directed at the Irish language by those who seem to have very little understanding of the topic they are talking about.

blanch152

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I think the whole thing is a red herring. The majority of immigrants in this country hail from the UK. The notion that immigration has any impact on parents choices when it comes to education only ever seems to come up if it can be used to bash Gaelscoils. It seems to be nonexistant beyond that, and has never been backed up with evidence, it's based merely on anecdotes.

As far as I can see, some people want to believe it to be true, but they have no evidence to support their claims, much like many of the other commonly heard attacks directed at the Irish language by those who seem to have very little understanding of the topic they are talking about.

Ah here, the facts are clear. Non-nationals don't go to Gaelscoils. Are you disputing that? It is more than an anecdote, the Department of Education figures show it clearly.

Before we go any further with this debate, can you clarify whether you are disputing the facts that Gaelscoils admit fewer children with special needs and fewer children of non-nationals?

blanch152

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah here, the facts are clear. Non-nationals don't go to Gaelscoils. Are you disputing that? It is more than an anecdote, the Department of Education figures show it clearly.

Before we go any further with this debate, can you clarify whether you are disputing the facts that Gaelscoils admit fewer children with special needs and fewer children of non-nationals?

Why do you think a lower % of non-nationals attend Gaelscoils? Also what do you mean by ‘admit fewer’? Are you suggesting Gaelscoils are proactively refusing to admit these children?

James Brown

recedite wrote: »

The majority of NZ consider themselves New Zealanders (not Maori) and the majority of U.S. citizens consider themselves Americans (not native americans). Of course the majority of Irish consider themselves Irish. But our everyday language does not distinguish between the true gael and those who are not. You used the term "Anglicised Irish" in a derogatory way, but that is not a common terminology.
Immigrants tend to congregate in cities, which is also where political power tends to be most concentrated.
Take London as an example - very different voting patterns to the surrounding areas in the Brexit referendum. A large proportion of the people there (probably the majority) are immigrants (1st, 2nd or 3rd generation) It is noticeable that they do not describe themselves as "English" instead they identify as "British". That particular use of language is interesting. We do not have any equivalent words available here in Ireland, hence they will simply identify as "Irish".
Maybe in the distant future there will be some who identify as Irish and others who simply identify as "EU citizens"

Has anybody actually said that? Here's what was said...

I have Blanch on ignore. I only see if he's quoted. By Anglicised Irish I mean people with a preference for all things English.
You brought in Americans not speaking Apache and NZ. I was showing how they are not comparable. You seem to agree.
People from Ireland have the Irish language there. They are free to use it or not. I'm glad we're all agreed it should remain a living part of our culture.

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Irish has long been replaced by English language. English is the main if not only language for the majority of Irish people.

Agreed. But where does that come into my point of saying we should maintain it's existence because it's part if Irish culture and heritage?

jm08

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah here, the facts are clear. Non-nationals don't go to Gaelscoils. Are you disputing that? It is more than an anecdote, the Department of Education figures show it clearly.

Before we go any further with this debate, can you clarify whether you are disputing the facts that Gaelscoils admit fewer children with special needs and fewer children of non-nationals?

Non-nationals more than likely speak their own native language in the home and if they want their children to have fluent English, they will need to go to an English speaking school.


I'd imagine children with special needs would have enough on their plate attending school, without introducing another language to them at that stage.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

Ah here, the facts are clear. Non-nationals don't go to Gaelscoils. Are you disputing that? It is more than an anecdote, the Department of Education figures show it clearly.

Before we go any further with this debate, can you clarify whether you are disputing the facts that Gaelscoils admit fewer children with special needs and fewer children of non-nationals?

No, I'm not disputing that. As should be obvious from what I actually said, I am disputing the suggestion that immigration has a significant impact on parents choices when it comes to education.

Sycamore Tree

Parents in Galway, with little interest in Irish, started sending their kids to gaelscoils in larger numbers during the boom times in order to keep their kids away from immigrants from Eastern Europe and Africa. Some openly admitted it. Very few children of non-nationals go to gaelscoils. It's racism or xenophobia or both for many parents. It's certainly not the love of the language.

James Brown

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Parents in Galway, with little interest in Irish, started sending their kids to gaelscoils in larger numbers during the boom times in order to keep their kids away from immigrants from Eastern Europe and Africa. Some openly admitted it. Very few children of non-nationals go to gaelscoils. It's racism or xenophobia or both for many parents. It's certainly not the love of the language.

Anecdotally speaking.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there. Peoples individual reasons are their own. The same could be said for choosing a school of any language in a different area.
Besides, as many have been at great pains to say, English is the more common tongue why would immigrants care about Gael schools, more classroom seats for them.
So we're now suggesting there's not many speaking Irish and any resurgence is racially motivated?
Aside from allocation of government funding I don't see what the problem is. I've relatives with kids in gael school and they prefer it because, having come up through christian brothers and the like themselves, believe the quality of education to be at a much higher level.