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The Irish Language and the Irish Government

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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,089 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    I had a debate some time ago with a person who believes the Irish language should be promoted and spoken daily by all of us.I asked that person how many times did she speak Irish on that particular day.The answer was none.No further comment required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    There's nothing to show for the money thrown into these organisations, save for the jobs for the boys. This has been going on for decades and has yielded no visible results IMO. Funding for bodies who don't make progress is lavish IMO.

    I can't say that I would consider a few hundred thousand per year as "lavish" funding, even if you don't think it is spent on something worthwile. It seems quite hyperbolic, and indeed even intended to mislead people to believe that they get much more funding than they do, to characterise it in that way.

    As for Údarás na Gaeltachta, again they are an industrial development agency for the Gaeltacht areas, are you saying that the thousands of jobs created in their client companies are "Jobs for the Boys"? Why is this the case for Údarás na Gaeltachta but not when it comes to the IDA? Or are jobs created by IDA or Enterprise Ireland client companies also "Jobs for the Boys" in some way?

    You talk of visable results, public infastructure and employment in rural areas are visable results, surely?

    You have yet to show any link between these organisations and the teaching of Irish, never mind backing up the claim that they have somehow "captured" the teaching of Irish to their own benefit. Do you withdraw the claim, or if not would you mind giving some basis for it?
    "Can speak Irish" can mean any of a million things from a "Slán" once a week to exclusive use of the language. As I said, it's a very poor metric.

    It seems that you want to move this to a discussion of the merits of the census in determining the extent of the use of Irish, as you keep bringing that issue up. I feel I need to remind you again that the issue was not the usefullness of the census for determining the extent of the use of Irish, but the comparative age of the Irish speaking community to the rest of the population.

    People generally know how old they are, so comparing the reported age of the population to the reported age of daily Irish speakers does not present us with any dificulty, it is rather straightforward really and having done so, we can see that the posters claim that Irish speakers are generally older people is false.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,766 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    I can't say that I would consider a few hundred thousand per year as "lavish" funding, even if you don't think it is spent on something worthwile. It seems quite hyperbolic, and indeed even intended to mislead people to believe that they get much more funding than they do, to characterise it in that way.

    As for Údarás na Gaeltachta, again they are an industrial development agency for the Gaeltacht areas, are you saying that the thousands of jobs created in their client companies are "Jobs for the Boys"? Why is this the case for Údarás na Gaeltachta but not when it comes to the IDA? Or are jobs created by IDA or Enterprise Ireland client companies also "Jobs for the Boys" in some way?

    You talk of visable results, public infastructure and employment in rural areas are visable results, surely?

    You have yet to show any link between these organisations and the teaching of Irish, never mind backing up the claim that they have somehow "captured" the teaching of Irish to their own benefit. Do you withdraw the claim, or if not would you mind giving some basis for it?

    I consider the spending of huge sums of money for no measurable gain to be a waste. Here's the government announcing nearly €200 million for Gaeltachts. Is there going to be any sort of objective measures for success or will it just disappear into the ether.

    I haven't got evidence beyond pointing out that most people in Ireland speak English as their primary language, the national broadcasters uses English and even Ireland's largest bulletin board is in English. If you wish to dismiss that and pretend that the language is in fine shape then that's fine.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    I consider the spending of huge sums of money for no measurable gain to be a waste. Here's the government announcing nearly €200 million for Gaeltachts. Is there going to be any sort of objective measures for success or will it just disappear into the ether.

    Ok, lets take that figure. This is an investment over 10 years, more than half of which is going to Údarás na Gaeltachta to create employment in the Gaeltacht. Remember they are an industrial development agency like the IDA, not some shadowy organisation that somehow controls the teaching of Irish for their own benefit, so this makes perfect sense.

    I'm not sure why you think creating jobs in rural areas is bad, but government investment in job creation is not a waste of money if you ask me. More of that investment is going to build community infastructure such as childcare facilities, again what exactly is the problem with this? Childcare as Gaeilge = Bad, childcare in English = Good, is it?

    Is investing in creating jobs and community infastructure in rural areas a waste? I have to say I do not think it is.
    I haven't got evidence beyond pointing out that most people in Ireland speak English as their primary language, the national broadcasters uses English and even Ireland's largest bulletin board is in English. If you wish to dismiss that and pretend that the language is in fine shape then that's fine.

    You seem to be creating a strawman here, who claimed that most people speak Irish as their primary language?

    You have made specific claims, but have nothing to back them up other than random comments that seem to be compleatly unrelated to the claims you have made. Bords.ie being an English language website somehow shows that Conradh na Gaeilge and Údarás na Gaeltachta have "captured" the teaching of Irish to their own benefit? What?

    Would you mind answering the question you were asked?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,766 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Is investing in creating jobs and community infastructure in rural areas a waste? I have to say I do not think it is.

    Depends on whether there is a return on the investment and the nature of the jobs created.
    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Would you mind answering the question you were asked?

    I did. Various governments have been throwing bucketloads of taxpayer money at these special interest groups for decades and there is nothing to show for it. I'm not sure why you're so keen to defend this.

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Depends on whether there is a return on the investment and the nature of the jobs created.

    Do you have a particular reason the suggest that there is not a return on the investment here, it seems to be news to you that Údarás na Gaeltachta is infact an industrial development agency rather than some sort or special interest group involved in some way in the teaching of Irish in schools.
    I did. Various governments have been throwing bucketloads of taxpayer money at these special interest groups for decades and there is nothing to show for it. I'm not sure why you're so keen to defend this.

    You have made the claim, and repeated it, but you have not given a shred of evidence to support your claim. How exactly have these organisation "captured" the teaching of Irish for their own benefit? You claimed that this was the case, there is no basis for this claim.

    You make misleading statements like there being "nothing to show for it", as we have seen, there are thousands of jobs in rural areas, and infastructure supporting rural communities to show for it in the case of Údarás na Gaeltachta. Yet despite this being pointed out to you, you keep saying there is noting to show for it. At first one could assume you assertions stem from ignorence, but now I can only assume an intention to mislead as you know your claims are false.

    I know that your claims are false, should I let them stand without being challenged?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 37,766 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    You make misleading statements like there being "nothing to show for it", as we have seen, there are thousands of jobs in rural areas, and infastructure supporting rural communities to show for it in the case of Údarás na Gaeltachta. Yet despite this being pointed out to you, you keep saying there is noting to show for it. At first one could assume you assertions stem from ignorence, but now I can only assume an intention to mislead as you know your claims are false.

    I know that your claims are false, should I let them stand without being challenged?

    I'm aware that I haven't provided evidence. I've addressed this above but you've ignored that. The fact is that Irish society works in English. If you need a source for that then I don't know what to say to you. Generations of Irish taxpayers have lavishly funded various initiatives and bodies over the years and the result is that the language has continued dying. I don't have a magic source that says that Irish people mainly speak English but it is fairly obvious. I don't intend to discuss this further.

    However, you also haven't provided any info on these jobs either. You've made a claim there. Why not back it up?

    We sat again for an hour and a half discussing maps and figures and always getting back to that most damnable creation of the perverted ingenuity of man - the County of Tyrone.

    H. H. Asquith



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    I'm aware that I haven't provided evidence. I've addressed this above but you've ignored that. The fact is that Irish society works in English. If you need a source for that then I don't know what to say to you. Generations of Irish taxpayers have lavishly funded various initiatives and bodies over the years and the result is that the language has continued dying. I don't have a magic source that says that Irish people mainly speak English but it is fairly obvious. I don't intend to discuss this further.

    Again, you are creating a strawman. I have not disputed that Irish society by and large oporates through English. You have claimed that these organisations have "captured" the teaching of Irish for their own benefit, but have refused to substantiate your claim, and now seem intent on shifting the discussion onto something else rather than address this point.
    However, you also haven't provided any info on these jobs either. You've made a claim there. Why not back it up?

    Of course: http://www.udaras.ie/en/faoin-udaras/ar-rol
    Over 7,000 people are currently employed full time in Údarás na Gaeltachta client companies and these companies have a significant economic impact and make a substantial contribution to the Irish economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    I'm aware that I haven't provided evidence. I've addressed this above but you've ignored that. The fact is that Irish society works in English. If you need a source for that then I don't know what to say to you. Generations of Irish taxpayers have lavishly funded various initiatives and bodies over the years and the result is that the language has continued dying. I don't have a magic source that says that Irish people mainly speak English but it is fairly obvious. I don't intend to discuss this further.

    However, you also haven't provided any info on these jobs either. You've made a claim there. Why not back it up?

    I’m sorry to ask a compleeeeetely off topic question or distract from all of the incredible arguments being made by imreoir2 that you have you shoving goalposts and creating new arguments by the new time but it seems partly related to the current topic.

    Does it seem at all funny to you that a person who has rang the death knoll of Irish throughout the thread and endorsed the defunding of the Údarás and the Conradh would be one of only two users in the thread with an Irish username?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    madbeanman wrote: »
    Does it seem at all funny to you that a person who has rang the death knoll of Irish throughout the thread and endorsed the defunding of the Údarás and the Conradh would be one of only two users in the thread with an Irish username?

    Not at all. There are many citizens who have a strong interest in our culture, language and history. But who nonetheless perceive that artificial supports for the language through legislation, the examination system and employment are simply a waste of public money and human resources and ultimately of little use.

    If Irish is to survive and prosper, then let it be because people want to learn and speak it. By all means the state should fund local language courses and resources to support the language. There is a strong case for supporting employment in rural communities who live mainly through Irish. But the state has gone far beyond that and people are right to call out delusional waste.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Not at all. There are many citizens who have a strong interest in our culture, language and history. But who nonetheless perceive that artificial supports for the language through legislation, the examination system and employment are simply a waste of public money and human resources and ultimately of little use.

    If Irish is to survive and prosper, then let it be because people want to learn and speak it. By all means the state should fund local language courses and resources to support the language. There is a strong case for supporting employment in rural communities who live mainly through Irish. But the state has gone far beyond that and people are right to call out delusional waste.

    It would be nice if some of them could advance some form of evidence to support their opinions rather than just making bald assertions that run counter to international evidence on best practice in language revitalisation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    It would be nice if some of them could advance some form of evidence to support their opinions rather than just making bald assertions that run counter to international evidence on best practice in language revitalisation.

    This is absolutely key! I think if I was to speak to friends of mine with Irish and involved with the revitalisation movement there is a very common issue that they encounter. They will be told "Well we spend so much on it and yet nobody speaks it? Therefore its not value for money!" This ignores the issue of whether funding is sufficient and how the money is being spent. Does it follow best practice in language revitalisation? How accessible are services in Irish for those who wish to avail of them?

    These are key questions and I feel like if the language isn't a major part of your life there can be a deficit of understanding of the issues. Minority language rights and revitalisation are very very complex issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    madbeanman wrote: »
    This is absolutely key! I think if I was to speak to friends of mine with Irish and involved with the revitalisation movement there is a very common issue that they encounter. They will be told "Well we spend so much on it and yet nobody speaks it? Therefore its not value for money!" This ignores the issue of whether funding is sufficient and how the money is being spent. Does it follow best practice in language revitalisation? How accessible are services in Irish for those who wish to avail of them?

    These are key questions and I feel like if the language isn't a major part of your life there can be a deficit of understanding of the issues. Minority language rights and revitalisation are very very complex issues.

    For someone who has some experiance of the area, the homespun "wisdom" that is presented as fact by some of those who criticise what is being done re the Irish language in Ireland is very grating. As someone with more than a passing interest in what is going on with Brexit, it bears quite a resemblance to the way Brexiteers speak about the EU. A lot of certainty, a lot of simplistic jargon, very little understanding of what they are talking about.

    Much like the EU, there are plenty of faults with how the state supports the Irish language, but much like the Brexiteers, many of those most vocal in their criticism have no idea what they are talking about and their supposed solutions would make things a lot worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Imreoir2 wrote:
    Much like the EU, there are plenty of faults with how the state supports the Irish language, but much like the Brexiteers, many of those most vocal in their criticism have no idea what they are talking about and their supposed solutions would make things a lot worse.

    The issue is you don't need Irish to live in Ireland. If you can't speak English you are in trouble. I don't think anyone dispute that. The argument is why spend large amounts of money on a language that has very little use as a means of communication. Any speaker of Irish can also speak English which as the global language of business is infinity more useful for communication. The only reason it is alive is because of its perceived role as cultural identity.

    The Irish government is doing a large amount to support the Irish language. The large amounts of money spent on Irish education and support organisations enables a relatively small proportion of the population to live their lives primarily through Irish by giving them jobs that require Irish. Take away the money, the jobs would go and you would see the small amount of people living through Irish dwindle and the language would die. Without the large amount of money invested in the language over the last 100 years it is hard to see how it would still be used daily today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    The argument is why spend large amounts of money on a language that has very little use as a means of communication.

    The state has an obligation to support the Irish language. It is the first official language in our constitution and that confers important rights on speakers of Irish, regardless of if they can speak English also. You might not like that, but I doubt you will find much support out there to change the constitution in this regard.
    The Irish government is doing a large amount to support the Irish language.

    That's debatable. If you take the education system, you can make the case that the state has strongly supported the Irish language, though look a little deeper and even there its not a simple story. It took the state over 90 years to develop an education policy for the Gaeltacht that caters for the needs of native Irish speakers.

    Look beyond the education system and you quickly see a litany of failures on the part of the state. Ever tried to do you business with almost any public body through Irish? I have and it's not easy. If the service is available in Irish, and it often is not, it is almost invairibly sub standard.

    When I got married, as an Irish speaker I naturally wanted to go through the process in the registry office through Irish. My wife also speaks Irish. We were told in no uncertain terms that if we insisted on using Irish that it would cause huge problems and significant delays (possibly months). We had no choice but to use English. This was in an office less than ten miles from a Gaeltacht area which had a Gaeltacht community in its catchment area. This kind of thing is commonplace.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Imreoir2 wrote:
    Look beyond the education system and you quickly see a litany of failures on the part of the state. Ever tried to do you business with almost any public body through Irish? I have and it's not easy. If the service is available in Irish, and it often is not, it is almost invairibly sub standard.

    Imreoir2 wrote:
    When I got married, as an Irish speaker I naturally wanted to go through the process in the registry office through Irish. My wife also speaks Irish. We were told in no uncertain terms that if we insisted on using Irish that it would cause huge problems and significant delays (possibly months). We had no choice but to use English. This was in an office less than ten miles from a Gaeltacht area which had a Gaeltacht community in its catchment area. This kind of thing is commonplace.

    That's because very few people speak Irish. All your problems boil down to that issue. The Irish government cannot force people to speak Irish. I imagine you are forced to use English for a whole variety of services that ideally you could use Irish for.

    The fact that Irish is the first language in the constitution is utterly meaningless if very few people speak it. As you end up with the situation you describe. You have a situation in Ireland where the vast vast majority pay lip service to the language. Having Irish as the first language makes people feel like they are supporting the language but in practice as you have perfectly described is that it does nothing for proper speakers of the language like yourself.

    Realistically if the government wanted to promote Irish (and at the same time wanted to commit political suicide) it would ban the Irish language. Look at Arlene Foster and the DUP they have done more for the promotion of Irish than if they had just let the Irish legislation pass.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    Do you have a particular reason the suggest that there is not a return on the investment here, it seems to be news to you that Údarás na Gaeltachta is infact an industrial development agency rather than some sort or special interest group involved in some way in the teaching of Irish in schools.



    You have made the claim, and repeated it, but you have not given a shred of evidence to support your claim. How exactly have these organisation "captured" the teaching of Irish for their own benefit? You claimed that this was the case, there is no basis for this claim.

    You make misleading statements like there being "nothing to show for it", as we have seen, there are thousands of jobs in rural areas, and infastructure supporting rural communities to show for it in the case of Údarás na Gaeltachta. Yet despite this being pointed out to you, you keep saying there is noting to show for it. At first one could assume you assertions stem from ignorence, but now I can only assume an intention to mislead as you know your claims are false.

    I know that your claims are false, should I let them stand without being challenged?


    https://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/population/2017/7._The_Irish_language.pdf

    Have you read this? And ignored the fluff in it to examine the hard figures?

    Irish is in decline, an inexorable decline. At a time when the number of people living in the country is increasing rapidly, the number of Irish speakers are declining. Here are a few examples of the failure of Irish language policy:

    "Of the total number of 122,612 persons aged 17 and 18 nearly 1 in 3 (40,626) answered ‘no’ to the question “Can you speak Irish?"

    These are the kids who have just finished school, and one-third of them can't speak Irish. If anything is an indictment of Irish language education policy, which is hugely dominated by the interest groups, that statistic shows how had it has been.

    In the Gaeltacht:

    "e 20,586 (21.4 % of the total) indicated they spoke Irish daily outside the education system. This represents a fall of 11.2 per cent on the 2011 daily Irish
    speakers figure of 23,175."

    11% of a decline. Well, how can you tell me that government expenditure has been anything other than a waste of money? Do you expect that number to increase in future census or not?

    As for Udaras Na Gaeltachta, it is a complete waste of time and money as any detailed examination of their reports would show. The number of jobs compared to the amount of money is derisory.

    Irish is dying, and you can attack posters on here for their opinions, but that doesn't change the facts.

    €178m for 20,000 speakers is close to €1,000 per capita specially on Irish. An awful lot of money for very little return. And that €178m only tells a little bit of the story.

    That €178m would also build an awful lot of social housing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »

    Look beyond the education system and you quickly see a litany of failures on the part of the state. Ever tried to do you business with almost any public body through Irish? I have and it's not easy. If the service is available in Irish, and it often is not, it is almost invairibly sub standard.

    When I got married, as an Irish speaker I naturally wanted to go through the process in the registry office through Irish. My wife also speaks Irish. We were told in no uncertain terms that if we insisted on using Irish that it would cause huge problems and significant delays (possibly months). We had no choice but to use English. This was in an office less than ten miles from a Gaeltacht area which had a Gaeltacht community in its catchment area. This kind of thing is commonplace.

    Well, if you want a service in Irish, you need to get it from the 20,000 people who can speak it well enough. So, if you are looking for a rare service, then you have to wait.

    The only cure for that is to get more people to speak it. On that, the Irish language industry is failing badly.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Sycamore Tree


    Everyone in Galway knows Udaras Na Gaeltachta is an absolute quango. Handy 'management' jobs for the Gaelgoir boys and lots of financial waste. Good money after bad. Great for junkets abroad too.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/378-000-in-%C3%BAdar%C3%A1s-travel-expenses-to-be-reviewed-1.686266
    Business class and economy flights to destinations including Penang, Hong Kong and Capetown, and related expenses, for Údarás board members cost a total of €378,218.46 between 2005 and 2010.

    As I said, artificially promoting the Irish language is a very very expensive business.

    I am sure there are plenty of Irish speakers in Malaysia, Hong Kong and South Africa.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gaeltacht-board-picks-up-800000-in-expenses-26570209.html
    MORE THAN €2m has been paid to members of the board of Udaras na Gaeltachta over the past four years.

    The figures, released to TG4, showed that, since 2005, €1.2m in fees -- and over €800,000 in expenses --

    A lot of this was happening when we were in a deep recession (2008-2010). Patriots.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    Everyone in Galway knows Udaras Na Gaeltachta is an absolute quango. Handy 'management' jobs for the Gaelgoir boys and lots of financial waste. Good money after bad. Great for junkets abroad too.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/378-000-in-%C3%BAdar%C3%A1s-travel-expenses-to-be-reviewed-1.686266



    As I said, artificially promoting the Irish language is a very very expensive business.

    I am sure there are plenty of Irish speakers in Malaysia, Hong Kong and South Africa.


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/gaeltacht-board-picks-up-800000-in-expenses-26570209.html



    A lot of this was happening when we were in a deep recession (2008-2010). Patriots.

    What part of Údarás na Gaeltachta being an economic development agency do people not understand? Trips to Hong Kong have nothing to do with the Irish language, they have to do with developing markets and attracting FDI. What do you expect an economic development agency to do during a recession, sit on their hands at home? You would swear that no bord member from the IDA ever went on a business trip to another country by the way people in this thread are talking.

    They had their budget cut by 70% during the recession, while bodies carrying out the same function outside the Gaeltacht saw increases of 50% during the same time, but sure Údarás na Gaeltachta is the source of the nations ills.

    The level of nonsence some people spout when it comes to the Irish language is breathtaking.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    What part of Údarás na Gaeltachta being an economic development agency do people not understand? Trips to Hong Kong have nothing to do with the Irish language, they have to do with developing markets and attracting FDI. What do you expect an economic development agency to do during a recession, sit on their hands at home? You would swear that no bord member from the IDA ever went on a business trip to another country by the way people in this thread are talking.

    They had their budget cut by 70% during the recession, while bodies carrying out the same function outside the Gaeltacht saw increases of 50% during the same time, but sure Údarás na Gaeltachta is the source of the nations ills.

    The level of nonsence some people spout when it comes to the Irish language is breathtaking.


    I agree with you that the level of nonsense spouted is breathtaking, but the biggest example of that is the defence of Udaras na Gaeltachta, quite possibly the most wasteful State body ever.

    http://www.udaras.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Tuarasc%C3%A1il-Bhliant%C3%BAil-%C3%9Adar%C3%A1s-na-Gaeltachta-2016.pdf

    According to their annual report, Udaras na Gaeltachta has income of €41m per year.

    According to the table at the bottom of page 11, the net employment base increased from 7,268 to 7,348, an increase of 80. Could they not have just given those 80 people €100,000 each and saved the state €32m?

    Even if you take the claim of 559 jobs created seriously - this discounts the job losses from jobs created in previous years - that works out at over €73,000 per job. Offering the average wage of €36,000 to those 559 would have saved €20m.

    It is mind-boggling that this waste of money has been allowed continue.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    The state has an obligation to support the Irish language. It is the first official language in our constitution and that confers important rights on speakers of Irish, regardless of if they can speak English also. You might not like that, but I doubt you will find much support out there to change the constitution in this regard.

    I think you'd be surprised, I'd have little doubt that a referendum to redefine or delete the reference to official languages would be carried. But of course, such a referendum is unlikely to take place in my lifetime. Too big a sacred cow. There will come a time though as Ireland becomes increasingly multi cultural that people will take a bald look at it and end this delusional status.

    As stated above I'm sympathetic to all those who want to live their ordinary personal lives through Irish and I think the state should assist this at local level. However I don't see any need to extend this to the right to access all state services and information through Irish and in particular legislation that puts Irish above English in a country where the vastly predominant language is English. Everything in it's own place according to it's own status. As it is, we have the tail wagging the elephant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I agree with you that the level of nonsense spouted is breathtaking, but the biggest example of that is the defence of Udaras na Gaeltachta, quite possibly the most wasteful State body ever.

    http://www.udaras.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Tuarasc%C3%A1il-Bhliant%C3%BAil-%C3%9Adar%C3%A1s-na-Gaeltachta-2016.pdf

    According to their annual report, Udaras na Gaeltachta has income of €41m per year.

    According to the table at the bottom of page 11, the net employment base increased from 7,268 to 7,348, an increase of 80. Could they not have just given those 80 people €100,000 each and saved the state €32m?

    Even if you take the claim of 559 jobs created seriously - this discounts the job losses from jobs created in previous years - that works out at over €73,000 per job. Offering the average wage of €36,000 to those 559 would have saved €20m.

    It is mind-boggling that this waste of money has been allowed continue.

    An tÚdarás is a job development agency working in some of the most rural parts of the country. Job creation in rural Ireland can cost money but the idea is that rural job creation has knock on benefits in creating and strengthening rural communities. It also can help stem the tide of urbanisation in our choking capital.

    The state has aims to strengthen and preserve the Gaeltacht regions. This wont happen without jobs.

    Also it is important to note that the reporting on the Údarás salaries that was linked to above was devised from figures released to TG4. Irish speakers dont want Government waste anymore than English speakers do. The IDA and Enterprise Ireland also have to spend money to make money.
    BarryD2 wrote: »
    I think you'd be surprised, I'd have little doubt that a referendum to redefine or delete the reference to official languages would be carried. But of course, such a referendum is unlikely to take place in my lifetime. Too big a sacred cow. There will come a time though as Ireland becomes increasingly multi cultural that people will take a bald look at it and end this delusional status.

    As stated above I'm sympathetic to all those who want to live their ordinary personal lives through Irish and I think the state should assist this at local level. However I don't see any need to extend this to the right to access all state services and information through Irish and in particular legislation that puts Irish above English in a country where the vastly predominant language is English. Everything in it's own place according to it's own status. As it is, we have the tail wagging the elephant.

    There are two points here that I would disagree with. I dont think that the referendum would pass at all but thats speculative without any concrete polling from any of us. But it does bring us back to my original point in this thread, it might be a good idea for a party to throw it into a manifesto and A) See if the media would take it up as a radical policy suggestion or B) Ignore it entirely which would probably be a win for the party in question consider it is likely to be controversial at best.

    Secondly, you cant be sympathetic to people who want to live their lives through Irish and then say it has to happen on a local level. That ignores the changing patterns of where Irish speakers live. Outside the Gaeltacht most Irish speakers live in Letterkenny, Leixlip and Maynooth, hardly Gaeltachts but still with people living their lives through Irish. Also if you cant get a civil ceremony in Irish how is that the state supporting people living their lives through Irish? The whole paragraph is a contradiction. You cant support people as a State and then not make services available to them in their language.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    blanch152 wrote: »
    I agree with you that the level of nonsense spouted is breathtaking, but the biggest example of that is the defence of Udaras na Gaeltachta, quite possibly the most wasteful State body ever.

    http://www.udaras.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Tuarasc%C3%A1il-Bhliant%C3%BAil-%C3%9Adar%C3%A1s-na-Gaeltachta-2016.pdf

    According to their annual report, Udaras na Gaeltachta has income of €41m per year.

    According to the table at the bottom of page 11, the net employment base increased from 7,268 to 7,348, an increase of 80. Could they not have just given those 80 people €100,000 each and saved the state €32m?

    Even if you take the claim of 559 jobs created seriously - this discounts the job losses from jobs created in previous years - that works out at over €73,000 per job. Offering the average wage of €36,000 to those 559 would have saved €20m.

    It is mind-boggling that this waste of money has been allowed continue.

    You know what they say, lies, damned lies and statistics. Údarás got €41 million in 2016, true, but that was not solely for job creation as you would know if you bothered to read the report properly. For example €15.5 million of that relates to Tús schemes, Community Employment schemes etc, which is seperate from what they invest in job creation. Another nearly €4 million came from rental income and not from the public purse at all.

    When we examine the claims made in this thread, we seem to have people who don't really know what they are talking about making misleading claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.

    If you had bothered to read the report, you would see that for Údarás na Gaeltachta the cost per job supported for 2016 was "€5,336 and the average cost per job over the past five years was €5,663." (Page 22)

    You claim that they are possibly the most wasteful state body ever, and yet if we compare Údarás na Gaeltacht to the IDA, we find that the cost per job supported in Údarás na Gaeltachta is actually lower. The IDA's 2017 report says that the IDA Ireland Cost per Job sustained between 2011 - 2017 was €8,057.

    Guess what, the IDA spends over 40% more per job than Údarás na Gaeltachta.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    You know what they say, lies, damned lies and statistics. Údarás got €41 million in 2016, true, but that was not solely for job creation as you would know if you bothered to read the report properly. For example €15.5 million of that relates to Tús schemes, Community Employment schemes etc, which is seperate from what they invest in job creation. Another nearly €4 million came from rental income and not from the public purse at all.

    When we examine the claims made in this thread, we seem to have people who don't really know what they are talking about making misleading claims that don't stand up to scrutiny.

    If you had bothered to read the report, you would see that for Údarás na Gaeltachta the cost per job supported for 2016 was "€5,336 and the average cost per job over the past five years was €5,663." (Page 22)

    You claim that they are possibly the most wasteful state body ever, and yet if we compare Údarás na Gaeltacht to the IDA, we find that the cost per job supported in Údarás na Gaeltachta is actually lower. The IDA's 2017 report says that the IDA Ireland Cost per Job sustained between 2011 - 2017 was €8,057.

    Guess what, the IDA spends over 40% more per job than Údarás na Gaeltachta.


    It wasn't me who set out the role of Udaras.
    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    What part of Údarás na Gaeltachta being an economic development agency do people not understand?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    blanch152 wrote: »
    It wasn't me who set out the role of Udaras.

    It was you who crudely divided the organisations entire anual income by the number of additional jobs created in one year. That is the kind of misleading claim that does not stand up to scrutiny that I was talking about. No one forced you to make a claim that could easily be shown to be nonsence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    It was you who crudely divided the organisations entire anual income by the number of additional jobs created in one year. That is the kind of misleading claim that does not stand up to scrutiny that I was talking about. No one forced you to make a claim that could easily be shown to be nonsence.


    A false premise was set out to justify Udaras Na Gaeltachta. When analysed on the basis of that false premise, Udaras was a failure.

    Then the goalposts were moved. But still we have no idea what Udaras waste the €41m on. A few Community Employment Schemes hardly cost that much.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭Imreoir2


    blanch152 wrote: »
    A false premise was set out to justify Udaras Na Gaeltachta. When analysed on the basis of that false premise, Udaras was a failure.

    Then the goalposts were moved. But still we have no idea what Udaras waste the €41m on. A few Community Employment Schemes hardly cost that much.

    I am not trying to justify Údarás na Gaeltachta. I did not even bring up Údarás na Gaeltachta initially, I was responding to a claim that Údarás na Gaeltachta along with other organisations has somehow "captured" the teaching of Irish for it's own benefit. Údarás na Gaeltachta, if you bother to read it report, clearly has little if anything to do with the teaching of Irish either in the Gaeltacht or anywhere else, and as such, that claim is obviously nonsence.

    A discussion of the cost effectiveness of Údarás na Gaeltachta's involvement in the administration of employment schemes in Gaeltacht areas has nothing to do with the Irish language and nothing to do with this thread, so lets not derail it.

    I have no interest in discussing the budget of Údarás na Gaeltachta other than to correct a few blatant falsehoods that you have put forward in your previous posts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,302 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Imreoir2 wrote: »
    I am not trying to justify Údarás na Gaeltachta. I did not even bring up Údarás na Gaeltachta initially, I was responding to a claim that Údarás na Gaeltachta along with other organisations has somehow "captured" the teaching of Irish for it's own benefit. Údarás na Gaeltachta, if you bother to read it report, clearly has little if anything to do with the teaching of Irish either in the Gaeltacht or anywhere else, and as such, that claim is obviously nonsence.

    A discussion of the cost effectiveness of Údarás na Gaeltachta's involvement in the administration of employment schemes in Gaeltacht areas has nothing to do with the Irish language and nothing to do with this thread, so lets not derail it.

    I have no interest in discussing the budget of Údarás na Gaeltachta other than to correct a few blatant falsehoods that you have put forward in your previous posts.


    I have read the report, not for the first time either, and I have read previous annual reports of Udaras Na Gaeltachta as well.

    However, there is nothing in them that suggests to me that Udaras is anything other than a complete waste of money and that handing money directly to Irish -speaking Gaeltacht residents would be much more efficient if you want to spend that kind of money.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 207 ✭✭madbeanman


    So as today is budget day I wonder if any supports will be announced for Foras, Conradh or an t-Údarás.

    It’ll be an interesting gauge of the a Governments commitment to the language.

    I know Conradh asked for 9 million euro but I doubt anyone expects them to get that.


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