The Irish Language and the Irish Government

Imreoir2

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Unfortunately there is no data to back my assertions up. It would be very very difficult to prove without a clandestine investigation.

Why are you making assertions that you don't know to be true?

My post has been reported numerous times so I will consider myself gagged.

I didn't report your post anyway. Nor can I see how it would breach the foram rules. How would you know if your post has been reported?

Sycamore Tree

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I didn't report your post anyway. Nor can I see how it would breach the foram rules. How would you know if your post has been reported?

Apologies, I did not mean it was you who reported the post.
I found out here (I saw someone had replied to me so opened it - never knew there was a Helpdesk);
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108375305

Freedom of speech now only applies when you have scientific data to back up your claims. This is my final post on the matter.

Slán.

Imreoir2

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Apologies, I did not mean it was you who reporting the post.
I found out here (I saw someone had replied to me so opened it - never knew there was a Helpdesk);
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108375305

Freedom of speech now only applies when you have scientific data to back up your claims. This is my final post on the matter.

Slán.

No problem. I guess we should leave it to the mods so.

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Irish and English are our official languages. Irish was developed and used here. Named after the country were it originated and is associated with. English is the language most commonly used, brought over by the English.

Note the part in bold, Irish was developed and used here, it is no longer used here outside a tiny minority of hobbyists.
It is currently one of our official languages, but that just makes it one of many anachronisms in our constitution. We update our constitution to remove them (like allowing same-sex marriage, abortion and, hopefully, blasphemy), there would be no functional loss to Irish society if we removed Irish as one of our official languages (in fact, we would save a load of money).

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You are getting into what constitutes a language. I've no interest in going down that route. I appreciate it as a genuine discussion point, but one could argue the only thing English about English is they retained the name. Same could be said of many others. In Ireland's case, the Irish language is our own.

Could one argue that? If you don't want to go down that route then why make that claim? Is it because you have no argument, no logic and just want your blanket claims accepted without question? Repeating yourself is not a discussion.

Matt Barrett wrote: »

It's called Irish.

And yet we all speak English.

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

As an English speaker I hope we retain both. It's just practical. We can't dismiss Irish, this being Ireland and all.

It is not practical, the vast majority of the population do not speak Irish and have no interest in speaking it. We can absolutely dismiss it, this being Ireland and all, because "this being Ireland and all" isn't and argument to keep anything good or bad about this country.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I disagree. Irish is Ireland's language, Irish unlike English was created and shaped in Ireland. Don't get me wrong, English is a perfectly good language, but it is the English language.

And bejaysus and gammorah, we can't be having anything English can we, 800 years of oppression and all that?

Mark Hamill

no.8 wrote: »

I'm sorry, but you see, you have simplistic viewpoints throughout. Look closer at minority native languages in Europe. They are certainly proud, many practicing and wouldn't abandon their heritage to keep the close-minded happy

My viewpoints are simplistic? Don't insult me. Your argument applies to Klingon and Dothraki. Hobbyists enjoying something, be they for historic, cultural or entertainment reasons, doesn't equate that thing having national importance.

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I would remove the word primary. It is the language of the Irish people.

At this stage, you are just soap boxing. English is the language of Irish people, just like it is of Americans, Australians, Jamaicans etc.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

My viewpoints are simplistic? Don't insult me. Your argument applies to Klingon and Dothraki. Hobbyists enjoying something, be they for historic, cultural or entertainment reasons, doesn't equate that thing having national importance.

Of course it dosen't, Irish is hardily comparable to those languages, is it? Irish is a language native to Ireland, it is spoken by tens of thousands of people all over the country as part of their daily lives and has been for centuaries. Children are raised and educated through Irish in Ireland. People work through Irish. People get married through Irish, f**k each other in Irish, pay their bills through Irish, play sports in Irish, maintain freindships through Irish, and every other mundane part of daily existance. Irish was made our first national language and continues to enjoy that status, because it is something that English can never be. It is the language native to this island. No other part of the world can claim that the Irish language belongs to them. It is ours as a nation.

The people who speak Irish as part of their everyday lives are not hobbyists, they are citizens living their lives through their own language.

madbeanman

I don't like to get into the debates about ownership of language because I think thats a difficult thing to measure. Obviously I think it is undoubtable that the English language in Ireland has been responsible for significant and valuable works of culture in Ireland, no question about it. I think Ireland can own its Hiberno-English and Gaelic traditions.

As regards the question of linguistic borrowing and how Indo-European languages are linked, both of these things are true however, equally true is that linguistically speaking the three Goidelic langauges of Gaeilge, Gaidhilg and Gaelg are said to have developed from Old Irish. And sure langauges may borrow from each other, no question about it but Irish as it is spoken today has a 1500 year history here and is one of the oldest living languages in Europe.

I think that things mean something in that Irish is culturally significant and relevant to our history. Language shouldnt be discarded because borrowing and evolution is inevitable.

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, I did. But the bit you bolded wasn't about that, it was about what blanch152 was talking about, as I said. Maybe try reading it again.




Whoosh again.
There aren't a huge number of regular posters with Irish usernames on the site.
The vast majority of them I saw on social issues threads were putting forward a very conservative catholic viewpoint. The majority of English usernames were not.
It's not meant to be any mega serious point, but it happened and it was quite noticeable.


@feargale Giving atheism a bad name, I got a laugh out of that so thanks. Maybe Michael Nugent will excommunicate me or something.

You are talking in anecdotes to try tarnish a form of communication which likely predated Christianity never mind the RCC.

James Brown

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

Apologies, I did not mean it was you who reported the post.
I found out here (I saw someone had replied to me so opened it - never knew there was a Helpdesk);
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=108375305

Freedom of speech now only applies when you have scientific data to back up your claims. This is my final post on the matter.

Slán.

Sorry, freedom of speech doesn't cover unsupported vicious claims against people or organisations. If you can prove it you'd be free to say it.

Hotblack Desiato

I'm not tarnishing anything for goodness sake. Just making an observation. One which seems to make some people deeply uncomfortable for whatever reason.

James Brown

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Note the part in bold, Irish was developed and used here, it is no longer used here outside a tiny minority of hobbyists.
It is currently one of our official languages, but that just makes it one of many anachronisms in our constitution. We update our constitution to remove them (like allowing same-sex marriage, abortion and, hopefully, blasphemy), there would be no functional loss to Irish society if we removed Irish as one of our official languages (in fact, we would save a load of money).


Could one argue that? If you don't want to go down that route then why make that claim? Is it because you have no argument, no logic and just want your blanket claims accepted without question? Repeating yourself is not a discussion.


And yet we all speak English.

We mostly speak English. Can we leave that there? Why do you continue to state that like it's being denied?
English also was. Pedantry. It's one of the states languages and it is our only language we can call our own, regardless of using English more commonly. We're going around in circles.
Irish is of Ireland. It is the only language of the Irish, although English the borrowed language is used more commonly.
Irish will always have a place as long as there is an Ireland to house it. Get over it. I don't speak it and I'm not offended by it. I think it's a matter of cultural pride to maintain it in schools.

James Brown

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'm not tarnishing anything for goodness sake. Just making an observation. One which seems to make some people deeply uncomfortable for whatever reason.

Because it infers Irish speakers are some how closer to those you described than any other grouping. I feel it's important to call out such nonsense.
I'm not religious in any way by the way.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Of course it dosen't, Irish is hardily comparable to those languages, is it? Irish is a language native to Ireland, it is spoken by tens of thousands of people all over the country as part of their daily lives and has been for centuaries. Children are raised and educated through Irish in Ireland. People work through Irish. People get married through Irish, f**k each other in Irish, pay their bills through Irish, play sports in Irish, maintain freindships through Irish, and every other mundane part of daily existance. Irish was made our first national language and continues to enjoy that status, because it is something that English can never be. It is the language native to this island. No other part of the world can claim that the Irish language belongs to them. It is ours as a nation.

The people who speak Irish as part of their everyday lives are not hobbyists, they are citizens living their lives through their own language.

All of that is very nice except it ignores the 4.5Million+ Irish people who do all of that through English, the language they, their parents and parents parents (and a few generations before that) live their life through. They are no less Irish for that.
And that really what this about. You and other posters go on about how Irish is just better than English because it's native (so what?) and because English is a mess of other languages (so what?), because of the superiority complex attached to Irish language by Irish speakers.
You have repeatedly pointed out that Irish was native to Ireland, but you haven't given a single objective argument as to why anyone should care.

Mark Hamill

madbeanman wrote: »

it but Irish as it is spoken today has a 1500 year history here and is one of the oldest living languages in Europe.

Irish as it spoken today dates back, at best to the 1700s. Before that you had middle Irish(900-1200ad) and the Old Irish (up to 900ad).

madbeanman wrote: »

I think that things mean something in that Irish is culturally significant and relevant to our history.

Neither of which equates to having it as a modern day national language, wasting kids time in school pretending to teach it and wasting money supporting poorly managed Irish language advocacy groups.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

All of that is very nice except it ignores the 4.5Million+ Irish people who do all of that through English, the language they, their parents and parents parents (and a few generations before that) live their life through. They are no less Irish for that.

I have not ignored them, and I have not claimed that they are less Irish either. This constant stream of nonsense claims is getting quite tiresom.

You have repeatedly pointed out that Irish was native to Ireland, but you haven't given a single objective argument as to why anyone should care.

You are welcome to not care to your hearts content. It remains the case however, that this is why the Irish language has the status that it has in our society. That is why you won't hear demands for the status of Irish in our constitution to be changed. There have been plenty of moves to bring our constitution in line with the values of today, the reason that changing the status of the Irish language has not been included in this is clearly that the status of our national language is not out of step with the modern Ireland. The people who wish to see the language marginalised in our society are a small minority.

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

We mostly speak English. Can we leave that there? Why do you continue to state that like it's being denied?
English also was. Pedantry. It's one of the states languages and it is our only language we can call our own, regardless of using English more commonly. We're going around in circles.
Irish is of Ireland. It is the only language of the Irish, although English the borrowed language is used more commonly.
Irish will always have a place as long as there is an Ireland to house it. Get over it. I don't speak it and I'm not offended by it. I think it's a matter of cultural pride to maintain it in schools.

We (the vast majority of this country) only speak English. Pretending that because the country, centuries ago, had a different more common language that that old language is still relevant just because it was native is empty headed nationalistic delusion.
So what that it was native? No-one has explained why anyone should care, you just repeat that as if it self evident when it is not.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

...wasting money supporting poorly managed Irish language advocacy groups.

Which language advocacy groups do you mean, and what is the basis of the claim that they are poorly managed?

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

I have not ignored them, and I have not claimed that they are less Irish either. This constant stream of nonsense claims is getting quite tiresom.

The implication is all throughout your posts. Irish is great because it's native and English is not. Are you telling me it's too big of a jump to say people who speak Irish are therefore more Irish themselves?
It would be less tiresome if you could support your arguments without emotive nationalistic arguments.

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You are welcome to not care to your hearts content. It remains the case however, tha this is why the Irish language has the status that it has in our society. That is why you won't hear demands for the status of Irish in our constitution to be changed. There have been plenty of moves to bring our constitution in line with the values of today, the reason that changing the status of the Irish language has not been included in this is clearly that the status of our national language is not out of step with the modern Ireland. The people who wish to see the language marginalised in our society are a small minority.

Ah yes, all those people who love the Irish language, who see it as integral to being Ireland being Irish, yet could not bother to try to learn it or do the census in it. Did you forget I already made the point about tokenistic nationalism? Most people don't give two sh*ts about England, while watching English soaps and chatshows and listening to English music, but bring up the ol' "800 years of oppression" and suddenly everyone's grandfather was at the 1916 rising.

Mark Hamill

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Which language advocacy groups do you mean, and what is the basis of the claim that they are poorly managed?

The group discussed earlier in the thread, Udaras (Posts after that one go into more detail).

James Brown

Mark Hamill wrote: »

We (the vast majority of this country) only speak English. Pretending that because the country, centuries ago, had a different more common language that that old language is still relevant just because it was native is empty headed nationalistic delusion.
So what that it was native? No-one has explained why anyone should care, you just repeat that as if it self evident when it is not.

I agree.
Anyone making such an argument would be wrong, I agree.
You bring nationalism into it? It's the bare bones of Ireland. It's like suggesting wanting to maintain New Grange is Nationalist. We have a native tongue. It is 100% Irish. It's part of our culture and heritage. Of course there is a place for the Normans, Saxons, Vikings in that narrative. Of course we speak English, but that's a language that was developed by them and brought over to the Irish. It's not ours. It's a communicative tool, borrowed, however widely used.
The only reason we need is that it's Irish, it's our language. It's in the name. It's the only one we developed. It is of Ireland. Different cultures can be blended in and that's natural. Irish is and will remain our language. Even if nobody spoke it and it only existed in a few dusty books, it would still be our language.
We disagree. Going around in circles won't change that.
We should be proud of the fact we have our own language. It's part of where we came from and we should celebrate it, even if most of us speak English.
As an English speaker with little to no Irish, I support financing Irish culture and would insist it remain in schools.
"The Irish? Yeah they use to have their own language but they weren't arsed about it". No thanks.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The implication is all throughout your posts. Irish is great because it's native and English is not. Are you telling me it's too big of a jump to say people who speak Irish are therefore more Irish themselves?
It would be less tiresome if you could support your arguments without emotive nationalistic arguments.

You are putting words in my mouth. I have not said this and if I wanted to imply it I would say it, not leave supposed breadcrumbs "throughout my posts". You are the one jumping to that conclusion, not me. If that is what comes to your mind then perhaps it is you that has the hangup. I am not making emotive arguments. Again, you are the one getting emotional here, not me. I am simply making factual statements, if these facts provoke an emotional response in you, that is your issue.

Ah yes, all those people who love the Irish language, who see it as integral to being Ireland being Irish, yet could not bother to try to learn it or do the census in it. Did you forget I already made the point about tokenistic nationalism? Most people don't give two sh*ts about England, while watching English soaps and chatshows and listening to English music, but bring up the ol' "800 years of oppression" and suddenly everyone's grandfather was at the 1916 rising.

I'm not sure why you are bringing a violent uprising from over a hundred years ago into this discussion. There are plenty of people in the country who have no intention of getting married to someone the same gender as themselves, and yet this does not make them homophobic, it does not mean that they are any less committed to allowing equality regardless of sexual orientation and it does not mean they would be happy to deny others the right to marry the person they love. Likewise, that someone may not have had the opportunity, the time or even the inclination to become fluent in Irish themselves does not mean that they are against the Irish language, it does not mean that they wish to see their fellow citizens right to live every part of their lives through their choice of language deminished, it does not mean that they do not accept the Irish language as an important part of our nation and honestly I think it is rather foolish to suggest otherwise.

Imreoir2

Mark Hamill wrote: »

The group discussed earlier in the thread, Udaras (Posts after that one go into more detail).

Without wanting to reopen that discussion, Údarás is still not really a "language advocacy group". That is not what they exist to do.

In any case your post suggested that there were multiple such groups, who are the others that you are refering to?

blanch152

feargale wrote: »

No! This is what you said (and I may be wrong, but I think it has been taken down. I can't find it.):

Yes, that is what I said, but I never said that Irish speakers were responsible for all the abuse that happened in Ireland, as you claimed.

feargale wrote: »

Oh sweet Jesus! Irish speakers were responsible for all the abuse that happened in Ireland :rolleyes: .

madbeanman

Mark Hamill wrote: »

Irish as it spoken today dates back, at best to the 1700s. Before that you had middle Irish(900-1200ad) and the Old Irish (up to 900ad).


Neither of which equates to having it as a modern day national language, wasting kids time in school pretending to teach it and wasting money supporting poorly managed Irish language advocacy groups.

So like obviously primitive Irish gave rise to Old Irish and Middle Irish. Weird of you to argue otherwise.

Also, I would argue that we currently teach things to kids that are thought to be culturally significant. History is culturally significant, Art is culturally significant, the folktales that kids learn in 2nd and 3rd class are culturally significant. Irish is culturally significant

blanch152

madbeanman wrote: »

So like obviously primitive Irish gave rise to Old Irish and Middle Irish. Weird of you to argue otherwise.

Also, I would argue that we currently teach things to kids that are thought to be culturally significant. History is culturally significant, Art is culturally significant, the folktales that kids learn in 2nd and 3rd class are culturally significant. Irish is culturally significant

Nobody has argued that Irish should not be taught at all. It deserves a place in the curriculum, just that place must be a lot less prominent.

There is an apparent attitude among Gaeilgeoirs that if you don't support everything that the Irish language industry wants, you must somehow hate Irish. That simply isn't true.

Irish has an important place in our heritage but its place in daily life must respect the reality.

Imreoir2

blanch152 wrote: »

It deserves a place in the curriculum, just that place must be a lot less prominent.

Perhaps you would like it to have a much less prominent position in the curriculum, but this does not mean that it must happen.

There is an apparent attitude among Gaeilgeoirs that if you don't support everything that the Irish language industry wants, you must somehow hate Irish. That simply isn't true.

What are you basing this on? From what I can see, it is those on the other side that have been arguing this. Seemingly unless you have made yourself fluent in Irish, then you must not care about it at all or support it's position in our society.

Irish has an important place in our heritage but its place in daily life must respect the reality.

What do you mean by this?

Mark Hamill

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I agree.
Anyone making such an argument would be wrong, I agree.
You bring nationalism into it? It's the bare bones of Ireland. It's like suggesting wanting to maintain New Grange is Nationalist. We have a native tongue. It is 100% Irish. It's part of our culture and heritage. Of course there is a place for the Normans, Saxons, Vikings in that narrative. Of course we speak English, but that's a language that was developed by them and brought over to the Irish. It's not ours. It's a communicative tool, borrowed, however widely used.
The only reason we need is that it's Irish, it's our language. It's in the name. It's the only one we developed. It is of Ireland. Different cultures can be blended in and that's natural. Irish is and will remain our language. Even if nobody spoke it and it only existed in a few dusty books, it would still be our language.
We disagree. Going around in circles won't change that.
We should be proud of the fact we have our own language. It's part of where we came from and we should celebrate it, even if most of us speak English.
As an English speaker with little to no Irish, I support financing Irish culture and would insist it remain in schools.
"The Irish? Yeah they use to have their own language but they weren't arsed about it". No thanks.

All you are doing is repeating yourself.
So what that it was our language? It's not anymore. Many countries had older languages that nobody pretends should come back. Many people want Italians to go back to speaking Latin, or Brazilians to pretend that Portuguese isn't their national language and speak whatever mix of old native languages they used to speak?
So what that English came from somewhere else? Celtic did too, and that eventually turned into Irish, just like Old British English turned into modern Irish English over time.

Your entire post is Tokenistic Nationalism. You, by your own admission, have little to no Irish, yet you support funnelling money into Irish and wasting all Irish school kids time teaching it because arguments that all amount to "it makes us different to the Brits". Why don't you speak it? let me guess, you are too busy to learn, but it's ok to waste everyone's time and money to pretend that Irish is still nationally relevant.