Travellers want a state apology

Gunmonkey

Vincent Vega wrote: »

I appreciate your taking the time to respond in a reasonable manner here, as opposed to just trying to cut my post down for what it was never trying to be.

I don't get why even trying to see a way forward and progress a dire situation gets mixed up with and read into as being a blind defense of all and every action under the umbrella.


With regards to me myself vouching... Even vouching for a number of settled friends and family, that they were good people, vouching for those same people absolutely smashed out of it and highly emotional, perhaps not.

I don't know who or what form this intermediary would or could be, but ideally one that was a middle ground with a strong interest in things running smoothly for both sides, with the hope of improving overall relationships and setting an example for future Traveller events.
Maybe there could be some incentives involved to encourage and promote positive behaviour, leading to repeat custom.

I'd say Pavee Point hold a far too established position for such a role, and I wouldn't see them holding Travellers accountable and calling them out for wrongdoing if it were to occur because it would probably damage their relation to the community.

In any case, as far as Travellers are concerned, coming up with a perfect solution for a high concentration of drunk and highly emotional people with plenty of other issues in the mix seems well down the list of priorities. Maybe it will just continue as is for the foreseeable future.

The trouble that can happen at these events is merely a symptom of much greater underlying issues which need to be looked at and addressed first.


It's a slow road ahead, but i think everyday engagement from the settled community, in they hope that these people might or could be good people too would be a positive start.

Just gonna respond the highlighted sections in order:

A) Because you gloss over any wrongdoing or peoples negative experiences with Travellers with "well, I know some nice ones!" while ignoring the colossal scales of difference between the negative actions of either side to the other. That and you continue on about how the Settled community are the ones who need to make the changes and ignore or mealy-mouth respond to any hint of change within the Traveller community.

Incentives to have their weddings/funerals go off without trashing the place....so paying them to act the same way every other wedding party/wake will....why? Its basic respect to not destroy someones premises; that cover charge for the party is not a carte-blanche payment to act like ignorant thugs! And the idea of "repeat business" does not apply here; this is not an untapped market the hotels are trying to exploit, and I can say any other guests who are harassed during the "festivities" wont be coming back so paying to lose future guests is not a great business model!

C) Pavee Point a lobbyist group, nothing else. They wont say anything negative about Travellers not so they wont distance themselves from the Traveller community but as its not their prerogative/job. Its why they never respond to any of the long list of negative news pieces but would be screaming and harping on and demanding reparations if someone didn't hold a door for a Traveller in a shop: they will only present Travellers as put upon flowers being stamped on by de evil Settled people....shades of which I see in all your posts (see point A)

D) So, you can easily identify the action the Settled community need to take to resolve a very, very deeply knotted issue (treat all Travellers as poor darling little angels) but cant come up with even a basic idea on how to resolve a single issue concerning Travellers (wrecking pubs/hotels).....I dunno, maybe...end all the feuding, its probably where most of these issues arise from!

E) So do that then! As above, you will bang on about the problems with the Settled community and what we need to do, but won't say jot about what the Traveller community can do to present a better face to help encourage this! Maybe ending the feuding, which by the by I don't think has been forced on them by the Settled community or is a consequence of not being invited to kids birthday parties so it has no bearing on whether the Settled community start being nicer; it will drain out a huge amount of the physicality, thuggishness and violence within their culture/community and can then prevent the flare ups at large social gatherings (generally where their "honour" will be called up because of the large scale and multiple families present).

F) And here we are back again, with "well the Settled community need to make the first (and only) step!" You even use "might or could be good people"....well as it stands I would say a lot of Settled folks will not believe that from past experiences...so asking them to change on blind faith is an astronomical ask! Why cant it be the Traveller community that makes the larger first step? Simple basic stuff, like tidying up halting sites (I've never seen a clean one ever) or not pulling kids from school at 11 "just because...."?

CeilingFly

NIMAN wrote: »

How did you know they were a traveller?

I can assure you that my wife would not hand over €5 if there was a slightest doubt

fleet_admiral

Can't believe I've just read this whole thread and nobody is selling gates and blankets

wexie

fleet_admiral wrote: »

Can't believe I've just read this whole thread and nobody is selling gates and blankets

or socks? what is the bloody obsession with socks?

if you're going to try to corner the market in something socks wouldn't be high on the list would they?

socks....I don't get it.....

freshpopcorn

wexie wrote: »

or socks? what is the bloody obsession with socks?

if you're going to try to corner the market in something socks wouldn't be high on the list would they?

socks....I don't get it.....

It's socks and knives in my area!

Vincent Vega

Gunmonkey wrote: »

Just gonna respond the highlighted sections in order:

A) Because you gloss over any wrongdoing or peoples negative experiences with Travellers with "well, I know some nice ones!" while ignoring the colossal scales of difference between the negative actions of either side to the other. That and you continue on about how the Settled community are the ones who need to make the changes and ignore or mealy-mouth respond to any hint of change within the Traveller community.

Incentives to have their weddings/funerals go off without trashing the place....so paying them to act the same way every other wedding party/wake will....why? Its basic respect to not destroy someones premises; that cover charge for the party is not a carte-blanche payment to act like ignorant thugs! And the idea of "repeat business" does not apply here; this is not an untapped market the hotels are trying to exploit, and I can say any other guests who are harassed during the "festivities" wont be coming back so paying to lose future guests is not a great business model!

C) Pavee Point a lobbyist group, nothing else. They wont say anything negative about Travellers not so they wont distance themselves from the Traveller community but as its not their prerogative/job. Its why they never respond to any of the long list of negative news pieces but would be screaming and harping on and demanding reparations if someone didn't hold a door for a Traveller in a shop: they will only present Travellers as put upon flowers being stamped on by de evil Settled people....shades of which I see in all your posts (see point A)

D) So, you can easily identify the action the Settled community need to take to resolve a very, very deeply knotted issue (treat all Travellers as poor darling little angels) but cant come up with even a basic idea on how to resolve a single issue concerning Travellers (wrecking pubs/hotels).....I dunno, maybe...end all the feuding, its probably where most of these issues arise from!

E) So do that then! As above, you will bang on about the problems with the Settled community and what we need to do, but won't say jot about what the Traveller community can do to present a better face to help encourage this! Maybe ending the feuding, which by the by I don't think has been forced on them by the Settled community or is a consequence of not being invited to kids birthday parties so it has no bearing on whether the Settled community start being nicer; it will drain out a huge amount of the physicality, thuggishness and violence within their culture/community and can then prevent the flare ups at large social gatherings (generally where their "honour" will be called up because of the large scale and multiple families present).

F) And here we are back again, with "well the Settled community need to make the first (and only) step!" You even use "might or could be good people"....well as it stands I would say a lot of Settled folks will not believe that from past experiences...so asking them to change on blind faith is an astronomical ask! Why cant it be the Traveller community that makes the larger first step? Simple basic stuff, like tidying up halting sites (I've never seen a clean one ever) or not pulling kids from school at 11 "just because...."?

A) I believe I used the word sociopathic to describe some of what I saw within the Traveller community. You consider this glossing over? Care to show me where I have said that Travellers shouldn't also have to change? One would think that referring to behaviour as sociopathic might also imply the need for it to be changed. Also, I don't see how staying open to, and not denying oneself the possibility to see good in some people of a specific group seems to imply I am also excusing the bad by others of the same group. I don't recall suggesting this either, and have been both critical and honest regarding issues that do occur. Slinging abuse about doesn't strike me as something likely to produce positive change no matter how it is justified, from either the settled or Traveller side.

I admit that any solution or suggestion that I might have here is poorly thought out and off the cuff at best. I don't claim to have any easy answer or anything close to a solution. I just believe it is fairly unfortunate that there will inevitably be people caught up in this who are in no way trouble, and who will suffer the consequences of such decisions all the while being equally at the disadvantage of being unable to affect change enough to remedy it.

C) I wouldn't say I disagree with you here. I don't see my post as having suggested I hold them in any particular high esteem. Just that from their position it wouldn't exactly work in their favour to get involved.

D) It's not about treating anybody as an angel from the off no more than it's about treating them as a piece of dirt from the off. With reference also to point A, I speak about how and what the settled community might do to facilitate and encourage progress, primarily because I am not a part of the Traveller community. I can't set about changing things internally no more than you can. I do believe that in engaging with them, and trying to form some sort of meaningful dialogue it may be possible to help direct or encourage change within their community, which I can attest to being met with varying degrees of success with, in some of the work I have previously taken part in. Its just a genuine opinion that people tend to respond similarly to how they are being treated by others. If their behaviour is supposedly having such an ill affect on our lives why is such a simple suggestion as trying to be open enough to relate to them in the hope of having them gradually integrate, however slowly this might occur, considred so offensive?


E) I have mentioned efforts within the community that work on issues in previous posts. I can only speak as a member of the settled community. The Traveller situation doesn't unfortunately exist within a vacuum. Just like their problems don't only affect them alone, their situation exists within the broader context of Irish society. If i was on a Traveller message board full of Travellers endlessly spouting abuse about settled folk maybe my angle might be slightly different. No use in providing such suggestions here as there seems to be no shortage of opinion and suggestion on what the Travellers need to do.

F) Perhaps I should have said might or could be good individuals. I can understand apprehension and mistrust, but i find it unreasonable to believe all Travellers must be bad because of isolated experiences. I mean it sounds ideal to say 'your problems, you solve them'. But what if there are ongoing internal issues inhibiting them from doing so? And what if Travellers are simply incapable of remedying or finding a solution to the poor situation they have fallen into? Leave them to it so? Maybe you feel you'd be able to work it all out in their position.There are plenty of other issues at play that I can think of and have mentioned that would render people as feeling either incapable or unwilling to meet those standards you've suggested.

Purple Mountain

freshpopcorn wrote: »

It's socks and knives in my area!

Oh god yeah the knives. They arrived on my road one day selling knives and flagged me down in my car. I thought it was someone looking for directions until the passenger in the van produced a set of knives and asked if I wanted to buy them. I'd never heard of knives being sold door to door before so I thought it was very weird. I promptly locked my car door and made polite excuses that I had to leg it.

freshpopcorn

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Oh god yeah the knives. They arrived on my road one day selling knives and flagged me down in my car. I thought it was someone looking for directions until the passenger in the van produced a set of knives and asked if I wanted to buy them. I'd never heard of knives being sold door to door before so I thought it was very weird. I promptly locked my car door and made polite excuses that I had to leg it.

They've being doing the rounds here for five years!

Il Fascista

Anyone who argues for the protection of a culture of degeneracy and criminality needs their head checked. Those very same people, the types who want the everyone to live together in a harmonious utopia, seem very good at ignoring the things that keep us apart.

Jerichoholic

It'd be great if, instead of issuing an apology to the travellers, the state instead issued a full on investigation to the despicable animal cruelty they have been getting away with for decades.

DEFTLEFTHAND

Purple Mountain wrote: »

Oh god yeah the knives. They arrived on my road one day selling knives and flagged me down in my car. I thought it was someone looking for directions until the passenger in the van produced a set of knives and asked if I wanted to buy them. I'd never heard of knives being sold door to door before so I thought it was very weird. I promptly locked my car door and made polite excuses that I had to leg it.

We had an elderly gypsy woman come into my local a couple of weeks back selling kitchen knives. I presume they 'fell off the back of a lorry.'

Funny place to sell them though. I mean Jesus Christ, young men fueled with alcohol watching soccer do not need to have knives at hand.

mcmoustache

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

We had an elderly gypsy woman come into my local a couple of weeks back selling kitchen knives. I presume they 'fell off the back of a lorry.'

Gypsy or traveller? I'd be surprised if a gypsy made it past the door.

I used to work in a newsagents near Blessington St and gypsies were simply barred because it was impossible to keep an eye on them when they landed in with a heap of kids and their under-skirt bags.

Galwayguy35

There's a video on FB showing one of them mistreating a little pony at the Ballinasloe Fair, it's back is nearly broken with the big thick c*nt sitting on it and the rest of them just laughing.

Makes me sick seeing that kind of animal cruelty.

And yes they were pavees in the video before the Traveller defenders jump in.

NIMAN

Jerichoholic wrote: »

It'd be great if, instead of issuing an apology to the travellers, the state instead issued a full on investigation to the despicable animal cruelty they have been getting away with for decades.

And check out their tax evasion and ability to buy top of the range trucks and caravans whilst unemployed.

iptba

This came up on another thread, but I didn't get a chance to ask it before it was closed:
Pardon my ignorance: do some travellers or others sell their (dead) horses for money e.g. to a glue factory?

whisky_galore

iptba wrote: »

This came up on another thread, but I didn't get a chance to ask it before it was closed:
Pardon my ignorance: do some travellers or others sell their (dead) horses for money e.g. to a glue factory?

You pay to get rid of dead animals now...not the other way round. The costs of disposing of an animal far outweigh any product (if any) can be made from it if not suitable for consumption.
That's why they choose to leave them wander off to malinger and die.

iptba

whisky_galore wrote: »

You pay to get rid of dead animals now...not the other way round.

Okay. The way someone had written it it had looked like they said they were able to sell on the horses to a glue factory.

Yer Da sells Avon

This is one of the bleakest things I've read in a while:

Family who lost seven members to suicide plead for mental health services

Alice was the seventh suicide in the family. In 2010 a cousin, aged 21, took his own life. In 2004 another cousin, aged 35, also died by suicide. In 2001 a 22-year-old cousin died by suicide and in 1998 a nine-year-old cousin took his own life.

Miley (14), a brother of Mary Berry, hanged himself from a tree by the then family home in 1983, while in 1978 her 16-year-old sister Josie had hanged herself, at the top of the stairs.

Fr_Dougal

whisky_galore wrote: »

You pay to get rid of dead animals now...not the other way round. The costs of disposing of an animal far outweigh any product (if any) can be made from it if not suitable for consumption.
That's why they choose to leave them wander off to malinger and die.

Or run them into the ground and leave them at the side of the road: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/outrage-after-sulkyracing-teens-allegedly-left-starving-injured-horse-to-die-on-road-36752827.html

Jerichoholic

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Or run them into the ground and leave them at the side of the road: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/outrage-after-sulkyracing-teens-allegedly-left-starving-injured-horse-to-die-on-road-36752827.html

****ing vermin is all they are.

I would honest to God rather see one of those little pieces of trash lying on the ground starving.

Wibbs

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

This is one of the bleakest things I've read in a while:

Family who lost seven members to suicide plead for mental health services

Jesus. Seven family members and they're not getting help? Though on the mental health front I'm not shocked at the lack of movement there. If someone can't go private the waiting list is long. I saw that a couple of years ago with a neighbour who was looking for help for a depressed and suicidal family member. The public route amounted to little more than a couple of overworked folks making phone calls to check up on the situation and promises of appointments that never seemed to materialise. In the end AFAIR they got a credit union loan to go private. And they were in a house, in Dublin, average everyday Irish people.

The Crowman

wexie wrote: »

or socks? what is the bloody obsession with socks?

if you're going to try to corner the market in something socks wouldn't be high on the list would they?

socks....I don't get it.....

People will always need socks.

BalcombeSt4

Loves_lorries wrote: »

The Irish in the UK were discriminated against for being Irish, not for anything else. Same with African Americans in the USA, because they were black, not because of anything they did!

Travellers are involved in crime and anti social behaviour on a vast scale, never mind the complete disregard for education, health or tax compliancy.

It's reductive ****e (posing as high minded intellectualism) of the highest order to write off the majority on this thread and in the country as a whole as simply being racists, reductive and arrogant, you help no one with that false narative.

Complete & utter bollox. They were discriminated against because a lot of narrow minded people believed they supported the IRA. And in the USA a lot of narrow minded people believe black people like being in gangs or selling drugs, Bill O'Reilly on his show actually told a black person he "looked" like a drug dealer to his face. Just the exact same way your narrow mind equates every single traveller with crime.

So are lots of non-travellers involved in crime. In fact none of the people involved in Ireland's recent bloodiest criminal feud were travellers, at least not to my knoweledge. But maybe you know something I don't because according to you every single traveller is involved in crime.

I think if somebody has shown that they can be bigoted then it's not of the realm of possibillity that there is a good chance they might racist as well, granted some of it might just be ignorance as well. But if you can back your claim that every single traveller is involved in crime with evidence & that the Kinahan & Hutch cartels are secretly controlled by travellers, well then I would be won over to your side of this argument.

BalcombeSt4

mcmoustache wrote: »

Gypsy or traveller? I'd be surprised if a gypsy made it past the door.

I used to work in a newsagents near Blessington St and gypsies were simply barred because it was impossible to keep an eye on them when they landed in with a heap of kids and their under-skirt bags.

Maybe the town should have forced them to wear an armband with the Star of David a caravan on it, that way you can tell them apart from the real Germans Irish. And just order some extra Zyklon B security for your shop.

Fiery mutant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Maybe the town should have forced them to wear an armband with the Star of David a caravan on it, that way you can tell them apart from the real Germans Irish. And just order some extra Zyklon B security for your shop.

Now we’re comparing the travelers to what the Nazi’s did to the Jews are we??????

Fuk off with your bo11ox.

ohnonotgmail

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Complete & utter bollox. They were discriminated against because a lot of narrow minded people believed they supported the IRA. And in the USA a lot of narrow minded people believe black people like being in gangs or selling drugs, Bill O'Reilly on his show actually told a black person he "looked" like a drug dealer to his face. Just the exact same way your narrow mind equates every single traveller with crime.

Discrimination against Irish people in the UK long predates any incarnation of the IRA.

mcmoustache

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Maybe the town should have forced them to wear an armband with the Star of David a caravan on it, that way you can tell them apart from the real Germans Irish. And just order some extra Zyklon B security for your shop.

There's quite a gulf between keeping obvious thieves out of a shop and going full Hitler.

farmerwifelet

I saw an ad on TV yesterday where you could sponsor a child to stay in school, not be a child bride and not be beaten into compliance in some backwater. Thing is we could apply every one of those to traveller girls.
How can anyone in their right mind condone this culture?

KevinCavan

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Complete & utter bollox. They were discriminated against because a lot of narrow minded people believed they supported the IRA. And in the USA a lot of narrow minded people believe black people like being in gangs or selling drugs, Bill O'Reilly on his show actually told a black person he "looked" like a drug dealer to his face. Just the exact same way your narrow mind equates every single traveller with crime.

So are lots of non-travellers involved in crime. In fact none of the people involved in Ireland's recent bloodiest criminal feud were travellers, at least not to my knoweledge. But maybe you know something I don't because according to you every single traveller is involved in crime.

I think if somebody has shown that they can be bigoted then it's not of the realm of possibillity that there is a good chance they might racist as well, granted some of it might just be ignorance as well. But if you can back your claim that every single traveller is involved in crime with evidence & that the Kinahan & Hutch cartels are secretly controlled by travellers, well then I would be won over to your side of this argument.

Let them camp in your garden or neighbourhood then. You probably have never spoken to one in your life!

freshpopcorn