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South-East Health - Primetime

  • 20-09-2018 7:32am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    Primetime tonight at 21:20 will feature an examination of the situation in the South East and the need to travel to Dublin or Cork for treatment dues to lack of facilities in our regional hospital.

    Maybe something will come of this ...... it is certainly timely being so close to decisions on budget.

    If we only had the clout in the political circles!


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    If we only had the clout in the political circles!


    Are our political institutions truly capable of such changes?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Are our political institutions truly capable of such changes?

    'Where there is the will ... ' ---- whether that be free will, bought or threatened it hardly matters, if the result is "correct". ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    'Where there is the will ... ' whether free will, bought or threatened it hardly matters, if the result is "correct".


    I'm not convinced these issues can be resolved in the short term via these institutions, but I do agree, we must persist it making sure they do eventually


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭ BBM77


    You know I actually agree with you. I don’t believe that the problems with the health service nationally will ever be solved by the government. To me the government is the problem they should be taken out of health care.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Uganda. BIFFO was right about that if nothing else. National health systems are fundamentally beyond reform that can improve it at a systemic level. It'll only ever be tweaking around the edges. When something big is attempted you get the HSE and PPARS.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    BBM77 wrote: »
    You know I actually agree with you. I don’t believe that the problems with the health service nationally will ever be solved by the government. To me the government is the problem they should be taken out of health care.

    should we leave it to 'the market' or some form of regulatory democracy to solve?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,638 ✭✭✭ bullpost


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    should we leave it to 'the market' or some form of regulatory democracy to solve?

    Definitely not the market - could be part of a solution, not the solution.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    IMO the Health Service should be provided by gov. from general taxation.
    It is far too important to the populous to leave to commercial interests.

    What has screwed things up, IMO, is the tendency to treat it like a commercial service.

    If done properly there should be no need of private health care, except for selective surgeries and such.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    bullpost wrote: »
    Definitely not the market - could be part of a solution, not the solution.

    this is a difficult one, im not convinced anybody knows what the solutions are, you d have to wonder what the crunch point will be regarding our health service, how many more people must die before change occurs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    IMO the Health Service should be provided by gov. from general taxation.
    It is far too important to the populous to leave to commercial interests.

    What has screwed things up, IMO, is the tendency to treat it like a commercial service.

    If done properly there should be no need of private health care, except for selective surgeries and such.

    even though id largely agree, i do believe the labor force is more or less tapped out in regards taxation, we better finds other ways of creating revenue, and fast


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    even though id largely agree, i do believe the labor force is more or less tapped out in regards taxation, we better finds other ways of creating revenue, and fast

    That might well be so, yet that same labour force is capable of paying for private health insurance.

    One might well believe that this private health insurance has considerably depleted the monies that would be better put into a proper national health service.

    I have no idea how that genie could be put back in the bottle! :(

    Of course a lot of savings could apparently be made with greater efficiencies.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,142 ✭✭✭✭ Wanderer78


    That might well be so, yet that same labour force is capable of paying for private health insurance.

    One might well believe that this private health insurance has considerably depleted the monies that would be better put into a proper national health service.

    I have no idea how that genie could be put back in the bottle! :(

    yea i fear we may not be able to, but we have to at least try. im wondering could not for profit private businesses be integrated into our health care system, and maintain them by strict rules and regulations?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭ IspeakcozIcan


    Pretty damning figures on Prime Time now. Takes on average 2 hours 26 minutes to get from Waterford to Cork cath lab. Not the 90 minutes specified in Herity report.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭ BBM77


    To my mind 24 hr Cardiac care has gone beyond weather we should have it or not. It is to the point there should be a public enquiry as to why it was removed and medical best practice and advice was ignored.


  • Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭ Squidvicious


    BBM77 wrote: »
    To my mind 24 hr Cardiac care has gone beyond weather we should have it or not. It is to the point there should be a public enquiry as to why it was removed and medical best practice and advice was ignored.

    Ah, but sure didn't they get an expert to prove beyond doubt that there's absolutely no need for a 24 hour cath lab in Waterford:rolleyes: http://www.thejournal.ie/waterford-cath-lab-review-2971483-Sep2016/. You must be wrong*.

    *For the avoidance of doubt, I'm being sarcastic. Unfortunately, some people in government are still spinning this line.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,911 ✭✭✭✭ Johnboy1951


    I did learn one thing I had not known from Primetime .....

    that 'report' claimed 1Hr 28mins, or just 2 mins inside the internationally recognised 90 mins, to transfer patients from Waterford to Cork or Dublin.

    #

    IMO, anybody who was not bought off, would have to consider that in a life and death situation, that timing was cutting it too close for any reasonable person to accept, particularly if that 88mins was an average (50% over 88mins).

    Of course the numbers were also available for times taken for actual journeys over a period, but they were not used. Those numbers showed the usual time taken for transfer to be well over the 90 mins.

    #

    The other aspect of the programme was how badly Halligan came across. In fact he looked like a beaten man with no fight left in him.
    He was so bad I wondered if he is seriously ill.

    What he spouted was not at all acceptable to me.
    He did not even back up the view that the existing lab hours should be extended while the new one was in progress!

    A complete failure IMO.

    I hope the program does some good in the right places.



    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    I think it's a really difficult problem to solve, and most countries grapple with this. It's not really for lack of investment either, I think the money Ireland spends on it is right up there with other developed countries.

    One of the issues in Ireland is population density. People all over the country expect to get the very best in service which is very understandable. Providing for that is another story altogether. There will only be a limited amount of specialists in Ireland, and a limited pot of resources with which to distribute them. With the population we have, we need centres of excellence also for specialists to get enough cases to become specialists.

    I've seen family members get really poor outcomes in Waterford and Wexford from doctors who just weren't at the top of their fields. Ultimately they all received life saving treatment from specialists based in Dublin, and each asserted that they'd have gone to Donegal if that was where the expertise was.

    Obviously cardiac issues are extremely time sensitive, but if there was an easy solution I think it would have been forthcoming by now. It probably doesn't help that parts of the South East are within an hour of Dublin and Cork. Ultimately if Waterford grew a little more it would probably solve a few problems.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Hard to grow when so many aids to growth have been denied to Waterford over the last 30 years. It suits bean counters in the captial that Waterford (and elsewhere) is "too small" for proper support. For all the talk about taking the heat out of the Dublin economy the powers that be prefer to keep that city as the absolute hub of the Irish economy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    Hard to grow when so many aids to growth have been denied to Waterford over the last 30 years. It suits bean counters in the captial that Waterford (and elsewhere) is "too small" for proper support. For all the talk about taking the heat out of the Dublin economy the powers that be prefer to keep that city as the absolute hub of the Irish economy.

    I don't want to get off topic, but Waterford is probably the victim of it's own dysfunctions as much as the national dysfunctions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,086 ✭✭✭✭ Harry Palmr


    Fair enough :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Hard to grow when so many aids to growth have been denied to Waterford over the last 30 years. It suits bean counters in the captial that Waterford (and elsewhere) is "too small" for proper support. For all the talk about taking the heat out of the Dublin economy the powers that be prefer to keep that city as the absolute hub of the Irish economy.

    I don't want to get off topic, but Waterford is probably the victim of it's own dysfunctions as much as the national dysfunctions.

    You don't think the dysfunctions are a result of us being under served in practically every sector of investment imaginable?


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    Deiseen wrote: »
    You don't think the dysfunctions are a result of us being under served in practically every sector of investment imaginable?

    Potentially, but things like militant trade unions played a part in investment leaving or not coming to Waterford. Very few of Waterford's TDs seemed to have the ability to rise within their parties over the years. Maybe the councils weren't always up to scratch.

    The South East as a region just mightn't be a great fit either - too many smallish counties jostling for position, and parts of the region which are within striking distance of Dublin and Cork too.

    Essentially, Waterford is where it is, regardless of who is at fault.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote: »
    You don't think the dysfunctions are a result of us being under served in practically every sector of investment imaginable?

    Potentially, but things like militant trade unions played a part in investment leaving or not coming to Waterford. Very few of Waterford's TDs seemed to have the ability to rise within their parties over the years. Maybe the councils weren't always up to scratch.

    The South East as a region just mightn't be a great fit either - too many smallish counties jostling for position, and parts of the region which are within striking distance of Dublin and Cork too.

    Essentially, Waterford is where it is, regardless of who is at fault.

    Political influence, militant trade unions or poor councils should have absolutely zero to do with the Government investing fairly in the South East.

    There's no potentially about it, its pure fact that it's down to Government neglect.

    You are crazy to think that militant trade unions from the 80s would affect a large multinational from investing in Waterford. Most people below 30 don't even know this was a thing in Waterford, never mind someone who is not even from Ireland!

    The problem is that a company will look for an educated work force which we don't have because we don't have a University (and not many ITs) they will look for access which we don't have because we are not near an international airport. Then they will actually have to be brought down for a visit, which they aren't by the IDA!

    I am actually struggling to believe that you think it can be partly blamed on militant trade unions, or anything other than neglect from the government to be honest!!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,011 ✭✭✭ hardybuck


    Deiseen wrote: »
    Political influence, militant trade unions or poor councils should have absolutely zero to do with the Government investing fairly in the South East.

    There's no potentially about it, its pure fact that it's down to Government neglect.

    You are crazy to think that militant trade unions from the 80s would affect a large multinational from investing in Waterford. Most people below 30 don't even know this was a thing in Waterford, never mind someone who is not even from Ireland!

    The problem is that a company will look for an educated work force which we don't have because we don't have a University (and not many ITs) they will look for access which we don't have because we are not near an international airport. Then they will actually have to be brought down for a visit, which they aren't by the IDA!

    I am actually struggling to believe that you think it can be partly blamed on militant trade unions, or anything other than neglect from the government to be honest!!!

    It would be fair to say that a lot of this is biased on the fact that you're from Waterford, and feel strongly about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,039 ✭✭✭ kuang1


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Potentially, but things like militant trade unions played a part in investment leaving or not coming to Waterford.

    You've done it now!

    *gets popcorn*


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Deiseen wrote: »
    Political influence, militant trade unions or poor councils should have absolutely zero to do with the Government investing fairly in the South East.

    There's no potentially about it, its pure fact that it's down to Government neglect.

    You are crazy to think that militant trade unions from the 80s would affect a large multinational from investing in Waterford. Most people below 30 don't even know this was a thing in Waterford, never mind someone who is not even from Ireland!

    The problem is that a company will look for an educated work force which we don't have because we don't have a University (and not many ITs) they will look for access which we don't have because we are not near an international airport. Then they will actually have to be brought down for a visit, which they aren't by the IDA!

    I am actually struggling to believe that you think it can be partly blamed on militant trade unions, or anything other than neglect from the government to be honest!!!

    It would be fair to say that a lot of this is biased on the fact that you're from Waterford, and feel strongly about it.

    Yeah I guess your right, my strong feelings are to blame for all the ignored reports recommending a university in the South East, and the lack of IDA visits and faking reports so that we can't have a second Cath lab.

    I don't know what generation you are, but the militant trade union garbage is long gone, as I said, most people my age wouldn't even be aware of this and I'm from Waterford!

    Cork had a lot of sit ins over the last few years, I suppose investment will start flooding out of cork now based on your logic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭ smalltalk


    ah the old "militant union" crap,based on a strike that happened in the 80's,number one move from the put Waterford back in its place playbook.The fact is that Waterfords more recent history of labour relations has been one of partnership resulting in companies staying and investing here,but that's not what the detractors want anyone from outside to see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    smalltalk wrote: »
    ah the old "militant union" crap,based on a strike that happened in the 80's,number one move from the put Waterford back in its place playbook.The fact is that Waterfords more recent history of labour relations has been one of partnership resulting in companies staying and investing here,but that's not what the detractors want anyone from outside to see.

    As I've said, most people my age are not even aware of this "militant history", you go younger again and it's almost completely forgotten. How is an outsider ever going to know (or care!?!) about this?

    Companies would set up in Kabul if the conditions were right!


  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭ smalltalk


    "How is an outsider ever going to know (or care!?!) about this?

    Companies would set up in Kabul if the conditions were right!"


    They will know if they are told and it does not matter if its true or not the perception is now planted and that can unfortunately effect investment of any sort.Kabul would not be where the investment goes limerick,Cork or Galway would be its destination.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭ Deiseen


    smalltalk wrote: »
    "How is an outsider ever going to know (or care!?!) about this?

    Companies would set up in Kabul if the conditions were right!"


    They will know if they are told and it does not matter if its true or not the perception is now planted and that can unfortunately effect investment of any sort.Kabul would not be where the investment goes limerick,Cork or Galway would be its destination.

    I can see the IDA not bringing companies down to visit, but if they were bad mouthing places they were bringing companies to then that would be a scandal as big as the Cath lab.


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