The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

NIMAN

It's not.

Not sure how they set limits on mica content. After all, over the years, the house is nearly guaranteed to deteriorate. Yes it might be slow, but it will.

Some of the criteria and rules are just plain daft.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122550966#Comment_122550966

I thought with the recent conferences and updated science from Irish and international experts there was a consensus that mica is a non-reactive mineral like tiny pieces of glass that definitely does not "absorb water like tissue paper" as previously claimed.

It has been posted several times by Paul Dunlop and Andreas Leemann that the culprit is Internal Sulphate Attack from pyrrhotite and pyrite. Although mica can make concrete more porous due to to its structure it does not react to degrade concrete paste. I thought this was widely accepted now hence the big push for changes to the DCB grant scheme and a review of IS465 to reflect this. This standard is currently being used in Donegal to deny home owners demolition and exclude foundations when attempting to avail of the DCB grant. I thought that is where things stand right right now? Maybe Ive picked that up wrong. As Ive said my house is cracking up as we speak and will need to rebuild so I'm very interested to keep up to date.

It seems from various engineer firm websites offering defective concrete services the acceptable sulfur limit for pyrite in concrete petrographic tests is 0.1%

When you say very low pyrite do you have an exact % ?

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551667#Comment_122551667

0.8% pyrite, absolutely no pyrrhotite!

And it does look like the literature is changing on mica, but until it does, I'm still stuck in limbo.

One thing is a positive , our cracks have not changed since we moved in, so they might actually be just settling cracks.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551879#Comment_122551879

Here are the limits direct from I.S. 465 for pyrite.

Your pyrite may be low compared to your MICA but you are well above the total sulfur limit for blocks:

1.0% for aggregate

0.1% for concrete blocks

I'm obviously not an engineer but I'd be curious who told you your pyrite is at a "very low level". I'd be maybe looking for a second engineer opinion on those results before you reveal them in any manner that identifies your property.

SBourgaize

I copied wrong, I am genius. ;)

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122552195#Comment_122552195

From what Im hearing Im not surprised your house has not deteriorated. No sulphur over limits = no internal sulphate attack. Banks want engineer sign off for loans though and while IS 465 is in its current state with its BS about MICA in Donegal its very unlikely.

Just out of interest. Did you apply to the enhanced scheme only? As in you did not get transferred over from the old 90/10 scheme.

SBourgaize

I had testing done purely to find out, there was a couple big cracks that the surveyor listed as settlement cracks, 8 years ago. Since then, the defective block stuff came out and we thought we were affected based on when it was built.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553310#Comment_122553310

Ah I see. I was wondering how you got a copy of your results if you were in the enhanced scheme but I remember now. You have a semi-d and had the building condition assessment done but it wasn't bad enough to get on the scheme. Well at least now you have a set of your own test results no matter what.

Im thinking of getting some cores done myself. Mainly foundations and a couple cores from blocks on the worst affected side of my house just to confirm what I already know as my outer leaf is starting to move away from my windows. I know its very unlikely but IF foundations are ok then I'll know for sure I dont have to take them out before demolishing my home. Its a mine field. Im semi-d too and still cant see the sense in trying to rebuild 1 half of a building full of defective concrete.

jj880

Im in no scheme / legal case yet. I dont have 100k lying about for shortfall between grant amount and rebuild cost so trying to stay out of it as long as I can but will have to do something soon.

I guess that's something Ive always wondered about the Coleman case. Lets say you dont have the money for the shortfall and you get as far as your grant allocation from the Housing Agency for lets say 250k. You go to a builder and for everything from demolition, foundations, all engineer fees, professional fees up to getting back into your house its gona cost you 350k. Is that what Coleman are going to court for? the 100k?

So in theory you could get as far as your grant allocation, pause and wait for the rest in court even without having to actually rebuild to get the final amount as Id assume when you go to court you must have some kind of figure in mind and the paperwork to back it up. Then make the best of it with your grant allocation + settlement.

SBourgaize

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553449#Comment_122553449

Initial core testing (Test Suite A) was 1230 euro for 2 core samples + the test itself.

Then Suite B (I don't think it was a complete Suite B, but enough to give us the gist) was a further 2460.

We didn't get the foundations tested.

jj880

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhuht1fIrOY&t=2047s

Leeman and Dunlop discussing their newest research. From 34:00 ⇒ 55:20

Well explained how mica does not oxidise. The ONLY function mica has to speed up pyrrhotite oxidisation if pyrrhotite is present in concrete.

Interesting question from Greg Hughes about what should happen with the scheme until this is fixed.

Good discussion around foundations also.

Leeman cant get over the level of ignorance in government here as its been 2 years since the Letterkenny conference they had pointed out that pyrrhotite is the problem. Id say he cant believe how Ireland operates. An eye opener for him. Gombeen central.

Very good interview. You need to know whats in your foundations and if there are any sulphides eventually they will fail. As for the IS465 review I cant see the NSAI holding up their hands and saying "we got it wrong" since they created it. They had their chance and look at the mess we're all in now years later. Everyone should get full demolition including foundations until this is sorted properly. Everyone who got some BS outer leaf fix should get full demolition also. European standards for concrete need to be used.

NIMAN

Just watching the news the last few days, and seeing that modular homes for refugees cost the taxpayers €440,000 each.

You could rebuild most defective concrete block houses for that sort of money.

jj880

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0025tsg?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile

Radio Foyle - North West Today Show 9th December 2024

Newly elected 100% Redress Party TD Charles Ward speaks about his plans and judicial review.

Charles Ward segment starts at 40:40

Judicial review segment starts at 43:30

"Realistically we've got to go the route of a judicial review. That's what we need"

On the previous page of this thread I put up a presentation made in May this year about judicial review. If you want to get a full understanding of how it's used in practice with Irish + European law its worth a watch.

Ward getting elected and stating he will take judicial review of I.S. 465 is a massive development for home owners but doesnt seem to be getting much coverage. It means Ward as TD can take it in the public interest to get I.S. 465 replaced with European standards and proper redress based on that. It also means no homeowner or group of homeowners will be saddled with potentially massive legal fees by taking judicial review themselves.

Judicial review represents a real chance to get proper redress and justice for homeowners. Sinn Fein were never getting into government so anything they promised recently wasnt realistic. Sinn Fein have not taken judicial review so far. Maybe because they knew the party overall would not support it. Who knows.

Charles Ward's party ties are to 100% redress. They are a new party and can take judicial review in support of their number 1 campaign issue. Hopefully he follows through and it gets a lot more coverage in Donegal media where its needed.

jj880

Quick update. Ive seen email correspondence that Charles Ward TD is indeed looking into judicial review.

This is great news. As stated above it represents a real chance for justice in this scandal. It could well lead to a public inquiry. I think at this stage its obvious that TDs in the Dail pleading with a FF / FG government isnt going to cut it. We've seen this for the last 5+ years with Padraig MacL, Pringle etc. Maybe Ward could be the man to take things a huge step further.

I am writing to confirm that I am currently exploring the possibility of initiating a judicial review in relation to the defective concrete crisis. At this early stage, I am in the process of seeking advice and gathering the necessary evidence to determine the viability of pursuing a judicial review. I will ensure the public are informed of any developments as appropriate.

If further information is required, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

Charles Ward TD

SBourgaize

Looks like there's some movement on this now.

https://highlandradio.com/2025/04/01/i-s-465-draft-amendment-released-for-public-consultation/

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123317195#Comment_123317195

Ive read the document. Initial impressions look like visual inspection stays and everything optional and left up to the discretion of the housing agency engineer same as before. Dont forget these guys are indemnified by the state for their recommendations. It should be anyone who wants a test on their foundations gets it for free. Any sulphides in them over EU limits and its full demolition (end to end managed by the housing agency) or the market value of your house given to you so you can decide how to move on with your life. Not a continuation of this BS where a homeowner has to fight it out with a builder on a grant that won't cover the work.

This review will run on until September before its finalised. Then changes to legislation will have to follow. We've seen how that went with the pre legislative scrutiny / amendments etc. for the "enhanced" scheme and people being downgraded. These reviews and anything following them are a delaying exercise. There will always be "the next thing to wait for" with government bodies and politicians. Unfortunately it seems Charles Ward has gone silent on his promise to take judicial review in the interests of homeowners. So just another TD gurning in the Dáil. Sure we had that with Padraig and Pringle already for years.

Was talking to the owners of the worst effected house in our estate. Theyve been granted demolition already. The money is nowhere near what they need. Cant rebuild. They are going to auction it off, take whatever they can get as a deposit on an old house with a brand new mortgage. They are nearly 60 years old. Shocking. That shows you how much faith people have in this review nonsense. They can review IS 465 all they want and include sections about pyrrhotite but unless they give the money needed to actually cover a demolition + full rebuild its still a scheme for the tiny minority who can afford to use it. Its going to take a proper court challenge (Coleman legal or someone else) to solve this and get justice for homeowners. Anything else is can kicking theatre.

NIMAN

Or it's time to let people build smaller houses if that suits them. So that whatever grant they are given, they can use.

I know many people will need the same size house rebuilt, but many will have less needs now for space, and should be allowed to build smaller.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123317799#Comment_123317799

Agreed. You get the market value of your house since you've already paid for it once. Let the council / housing agency fix it up if they so wish. If you want to buy an igloo after that its your choice. Its ridiculous what's being offered and the restrictions on what people can do. Im a software dev by trade and now Im expected to manage a demo + rebuild. I'd get robbed even if I had the money to use the scheme. I bought a turnkey house so I wouldnt have to deal with any of that.

Edit: Apologies I misread your post. I do agree people should have the option to use whatever grant they get to build a smaller house but they should get a proper grant based on the size of the house pre-rebuild. That is 100% redress. To me a partial grant is not redress.

jj880

Getting strong deja vu on this IS 465 submission process. Seems just like the amendments for the enhanced scheme. The NSAI are under no obligation to listen to anyone when reviewing their own homemade Irish standard. Freeze thaw nonsense remains and they've doubled the permissable amount of iron sulphide compared to EU standards. Crazy stuff.

Charles Ward standing up at the University Of Ulster conference talking about how he got elected and "made history" isnt much use to any defective concrete home owner. He has a facebook post up about how great it is to see former housing minister Darragh O'Brien mention the IS465 review. If that's worth celebrating we're truly all fecked. Its really disappointing to see just another TD "raising awareness" in the Dáil.

opinionated3

Hi all. In the middle of my grant application at the moment. Had the 13 hole coring done with the HA last October and still waiting on the results. Cracks in our bungalow in Clare are consistent with defective blocks but it's a very slow deterioration. In fact I've no new cracks on internal walls in the last ten years. Externally it's not good, but still a slow deterioration and mainly on two specific weather facing walls.

In the long term I'm fearful that any grant awarded will not cover the rebuild and associated costs. We are probably willing to downsize but that involves planning and more costs. Just wondering has anyone looked at the viability of replacing their affected home with BRB home? Pros? Cons?

Sheedy234

Hi also Clare bungalow. Got our grant offer of 258000 for option 2 pure disaster . I don't see any point in option 2 so with that offer a rebuild is not an option. Hoping something comes out of the new report in September that they see anything but demolition is ridiculous.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123435209#Comment_123435209

Court challenge needed. In my opinion there have been too many "outer leaf" nonsense fixes for them to hold up their hands on IS 465 and say "we got it wrong". As an effected home owner myself I hope Im wrong but I cant see the NSAI pointing out theyre a bunch of crooks by fixing their own standard properly. As for the research going on (University Of Ulster etc) its all great but it's funded by the government (the GSI) and aimed at European level not Ireland.

NIMAN

If you fix your house with an outer leaf only option, does the Gov stand over this should future issues arise with your inner walls or the foundations?

opinionated3

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123435209#Comment_123435209

This is exactly what I'm scared of. The engineer I've engaged with is highly experienced on this issue and privately is absolutely fuming with these"options". Major future issues involving insurance, saleability, mortgage viability for future buyers etc.

I had plans of selling the house when I'm close to retirement but right now I feel I'm fighting a losing battle. I'm aware my mental health is in the gutter and I've had some very dark thoughts lately. I'm working and paying tax since 17 yrs of age and I'm nearly 48 now.

I keep going and put on a strong face in front of my wife because it's the right thing to do but I can't believe we've spent the last 21 years paying a mortgage on a now worthless piece of property. I hope to see some positive news in the near future, for all of us affected by this.

Sheedy234

I am sorry you are going through such a bad time it's disgusting what the government have done to good honest hard working people. It is actually my dad's house who I live next to and he is nearly 80 yrs old so won't be adding to the grant money to rebuild.

We have been over 1 yr from applying to hearing this news. Foundations out and new build are the only solution. House insurance is worthless , we will watch our family home fall apart and be worthless .

No builder wants to touch these stupid options 2 -5 and I wouldn't blame them.

Try not to dwell too much on it now as it is out of your hands for now and it is not your fault ! Deal with things as they come

Sheedy234

30 yr guarantee I think but I'm sure that will only apply to the remediation work . Foundations do not apply at all !!

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123436066#Comment_123436066

How stupid is that.

Thats just wasting taxpayers money to fix one problem, when in the end another issue could make the house worthless and need to be tumbled anyway.

jj880

From the Your Questions Answered document: https://www.gov.ie/en/department-of-housing-local-government-and-heritage/publications/enhanced-defective-concrete-blocks-grant-scheme-your-questions-answered/

40 years. Reads to me like only works carried out are guaranteed (but excluding demolition!!) which is BS as since quarries are still not properly regulated what happens if you get another batch of shite concrete?

I checked the 2022 Act and 2023 regulations and they use the same language if you do a search for "40 years":

https://www.housingagency.ie/sites/default/files/2023-07/Remediation%20of%20Dwellings%20Damaged%20by%20the%20Use%20of%20Defective%20Concrete%20Blocks%20Act%202022.pdf

https://www.housingagency.ie/sites/default/files/2023-07/Remediation%20of%20Dwellings%20Damaged%20by%20the%20Use%20of%20Defective%20Concrete%20Blocks%20Regulations%202023.pdf

BUT in the regulations they provide the letter of assurance for 40 year guarantee:

The question is for any "second remediation option grant" application within 40 years do you automatically get option 1 demolition?

NIMAN

Tbh, if i get my house fixed in the short term future, I'll not need to be worrying about what might happen in 40yrs time.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123436251#Comment_123436251

Ive a son who will be inheriting our house or whats left of it. To my dying day I'll try to get it fixed properly for him. Redress shouldn't be about an outer leaf to keep a homeowner happy until they kick the bucket. Donegal County Council, The Housing Agency, Donegal's TDs / Councillors and everyone else involved are making money out of trying to delay / deny us proper redress because lets be honest that's whats going on here. Theyre all playing the game.

This is no comment on you because I dont know your circumstances. Im just sick to the back teeth of the whole situation.