Family of seven sleep in Garda station Mod note post one

Jedidiah Lazy Moped

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

Yes I already made the point there's no point complaining about travellers being unemployed while also understanding why they wouldn't be hired. But it's the problems in their community that are the cause of this, not mean settled people.

It's not that black and white.

If I were a traveller, and half the adults in my community were dying before the age of 40, and I had been bullied out of school at an early age, and one in every ten babies born in my community was dying before the age of two, I honestly don't think I'd give a flying fuck about the settled community.

Travellers and settled people both need to change our attitudes. Their community leaders need to do more to address the scourge that criminal activity has on the perception of travellers, and they need to do a hell of a lot more to promote education and responsible decision-making in their community.

But we also need to do our part, and part of that means not dismissing every traveller you encounter as being 'a bad 'un'. They need to be given incentives to do their best, knowing that if they do, people won't just disregard them and abuse them for their group identity.

Judson Calm Remote

Judson Calm Remote wrote: »

The problem laid out on this thread is that Margaret Cash left school at 12, got married at 15, got pregnant at 16, and is a welfare-dependent mother of seven children by age 28.

Even if she wanted to work, her options are obviously limited by her lack of formal education, her borderline illiteracy, and her criminal record.

The best she could do would be to get a minimum wage job -- but then who would mind the children while she's working? The oldest is just 11. The childcare costs would far outweigh the income from employment.

She's stuck in a poverty trap created by her own traveller culture. No child should have been taken out of school at 12 and married off at 15. That's just wrong.

Complain about discrimination and ethnicity all you want, but Margaret Cash's situation arose because of traditions of early school leaving and early marriage found throughout traveller culture. Following those traditions has put her in the position she's in.

to be honest, it sounds harsh, but anyone of Margaret Cash's age or older is a lost cause. We need to just look upon this as a societal version of a 'sunk cost', and try instead to invest in travellers at school-going age.

Any change that will happen, will have to come from the youngest generation.

KrustyUCC

She's a sunk cost alright and will continue to cost more for the rest of her life. Just waiting for her to get her 'home forever' which will be more money down the drain

Alternatively we radically change the welfare system so that future Margarets don't think they can fund a lifestyle of leave school at 12, get married at 15, got pregnant at 16, and is a welfare-dependent mother of seven children by age 28 all at taxpayers expense esp when a person has never contributed to the system nor never will

Sweet.Science

Judson Calm Remote wrote: »

The problem laid out on this thread is that Margaret Cash left school at 12, got married at 15, got pregnant at 16, and is a welfare-dependent mother of seven children by age 28.

Even if she wanted to work, her options are obviously limited by her lack of formal education, her borderline illiteracy, and her criminal record.

The best she could do would be to get a minimum wage job -- but then who would mind the children while she's working? The oldest is just 11. The childcare costs would far outweigh the income from employment.

She's stuck in a poverty trap created by her own traveller culture. No child should have been taken out of school at 12 and married off at 15. That's just wrong.

Complain about discrimination and ethnicity all you want, but Margaret Cash's situation arose because of traditions of early school leaving and early marriage found throughout traveller culture. Following those traditions has put her in the position she's in.

Or else she seen it as a career choice . Have a kid / kids and depend on the government and the taxpayer to fund your lifestyle. Thousands like her do the same .

Who can blame them really when the option is there

KrustyUCC

KrustyUCC wrote: »

She's a sunk cost alright and will continue to cost more for the rest of her life. Just waiting for her to get her 'home forever' which will be more money down the drain

Alternatively we radically change the welfare system so that future Margarets don't think they can fund a lifestyle of leave school at 12, get married at 15, got pregnant at 16, and is a welfare-dependent mother of seven children by age 28 all at taxpayers expense esp when a person has never contributed to the system nor never will

You seem to accept that this person amounts to a sunk cost, and then completely contradict yourself by trying to recover that cost.

That's fine, but can you give us practical examples as to how to do so, without ultimately punishing her children?

KrustyUCC

I accept the system as is in Margaret Cashs case

It shouldn't be the way it is but it is

She is on over €50k a year in welfare despite never having worked a day in her life

We won't recover her money but we need to put in place systems so that her seven kids can't see welfare as a lifestyle choice paid for by the taxpayer

KrustyUCC

KrustyUCC wrote: »

We won't recover her money but we need to put in place systems so that her seven kids can't see welfare as a lifestyle choice paid for by the taxpayer

Then we're in agreement.

To begin with, we could start by penalising young people who apply for jobseekers' payments, unless they take up education. It's 2018, you cannot reasonably hope to have a life and raise a family outside of poverty unless you get yourself some kind of trade skill or qualification.

But the flip side of that, is that employers will need to change their attitudes to travellers when they do equip themselves with skills and qualifications. Otherwise, the taxpayer is just paying for upskilling for the hell of it.

jay0109

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

If I were a traveller, and half the adults in my community were dying before the age of 40, and I had been bullied out of school at an early age, and one in every ten babies born in my community was dying before the age of two,

I thought those stats were rubbished a few pages back?

And who bullied Margaret out of school? Her interviews seemed to indicate she made the decision to leave so as to avoid a spiral into drugs and decay on secondary school!!!

jay0109

jay0109 wrote: »

I thought those stats were rubbished a few pages back?

No idea. Haven't read the entire thread. Got a link? As far as i know, that stat is about ten years old, but I doubt it's changed much.

And who bullied Margaret out of school? Her interviews seemed to indicate she made the decision to leave so as to avoid a spiral into drugs and decay on secondary school!!!

I defy anyone here, who went to a non fee-paying school, to tell me they've never encountered anti-traveller bullying by their peers.

Pyr0

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

No idea. Haven't read the entire thread. Got a link? As far as i know, that stat is about ten years old, but I doubt it's changed much.



I defy anyone here, who went to a non fee-paying school, to tell me they've never encountered anti-traveller bullying by their peers.

I never saw it once, mainly because we had no travellers in our school.

Deebles McBeebles

KrustyUCC wrote: »

She is on over €50k a year in welfare despite never having worked a day in her life

We won't recover her money but we need to put in place systems so that her seven kids can't see welfare as a lifestyle choice paid for by the taxpayer

That would be like trying to plug the Hoover Dam with your finger. There are thousands of Margaret Cash's around the country, from both traveller and settled communities who are popping them out, 18 years later, on the dole for life. And on and on and on....

Gimme A Pound

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

It's not that black and white.

If I were a traveller, and half the adults in my community were dying before the age of 40, and I had been bullied out of school at an early age, and one in every ten babies born in my community was dying before the age of two, I honestly don't think I'd give a flying fuck about the settled community.

Travellers and settled people both need to change our attitudes. Their community leaders need to do more to address the scourge that criminal activity has on the perception of travellers, and they need to do a hell of a lot more to promote education and responsible decision-making in their community.

But we also need to do our part, and part of that means not dismissing every traveller you encounter as being 'a bad 'un'. They need to be given incentives to do their best, knowing that if they do, people won't just disregard them and abuse them for their group identity.

Yes I've no doubt resentment can be due to discrimination (even when justified) and this leads to more resentment and bad behaviour and more polarisation and the cycle keeps going.

But how come understanding of the traveller community's resentment is urged and not of the settled community's? The settled community have far more to be angry about. They are not doing any of the horrific things to travellers that a disproportionate number of travellers are doing to settled people - *and to each other*.

I mean the cases are endless. Some of them are just upsetting. Gone past angering to just saddening and depressing.

And the thing is, while plenty of individual travellers are decent folk, they are so intertwined. Any lovely travellers I've met have distanced themselves from the culture they were born into (and I met plenty as I worked in housing).

If you're a traveller and settled people are snobby towards you, that is not nice of course. If you resort to violence and crime and intimidation and trashing the place as a form of getting your own back... sympathy gone. You are responsible for that carry-on, nobody else.

The ultimate **** you to people who associate you with negativity only is to show them you're not like that, rather than proving them right!

Frankly, why should the settled community change? Already so many olive branches have been extended thanks to our taxes, yet the horrendous behaviour continues. There is no reason for us to change - there is plenty of reason for changes in the traveller community.

And no business owner is going to take a risk, no matter how principled it'd look. There is too much at stake.

Condemnation by traveller spokespersons of things like the *slavery* (I mean, it blows the mind) in the UK would be a start.

Nobody bullied the traveller kids in my school for the short time they attended. They would not dare.

ProfessorPlum

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I defy anyone here, who went to a non fee-paying school, to tell me they've never encountered anti-traveller bullying by their peers.

Tbh, I’d say it’s far more likely that travellers are ‘bullied out of school’ by their own community than by their settled peers.

Graces7

Was thinking about this. We never hear about the travellers who do not cause trouble?
Twice in my life I have had serious problems with travellers. eg assault. But I still will not join with your thoughts here. I have no idea who in m wider acquaintance might be a traveller. Take each person as they come? And lifestyle is a different issue altogether..

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

It's still not because of ethnicity in and of itself - it's exactly what you mentioned: the disproportionate amount of violence, crime etc. Absolutely, not all travellers partake in same, but the risk is higher. That's what it's about - risk minimisation. Something all who hire staff need to be profoundly aware of, when it comes to anything or anyone. With travellers too, there is the additional risk of family ties even if the individual is ok.

Maybe if the person doing the hiring knows them and their family, what you say should apply.

Deebles McBeebles

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

Nobody bullied the traveller kids in my school for the short time they attended. They would not dare.

That was my experience too. Even as kids you knew it wasn't worth the hassle to open your mouth.

Loves_lorries

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Actually, I'm talking about things like openly sniggering at travellers, using group epithets towards them like 'knacker', and refusing to employ them on the basis of their ethnicity.

Like i said, both travellers and the settled community need to change their ways -- travellers have a lot to change, too.

As for not knowing any travellers, I don't think i need to prove myself to some randomer on a bulletin board.

All of the changes must come from travellers, they are in no position to make any demands.
Their entire existence depends on handouts from the tax payer.

n97 mini

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

I defy anyone here, who went to a non fee-paying school, to tell me they've never encountered anti-traveller bullying by their peers.

Four in my class in primary school. The bullying was very much one way. Their older brothers would usually wait outside the school every day to see who the younger ones wanted to beat up after school. The older brothers were all in their teens and had dropped out of school after primary, hence they were free most days at that time

Deebles McBeebles

Graces7 wrote: »

Was thinking about this. We never hear about the travellers who do not cause trouble?
Twice in my life I have had serious problems with travellers. eg assault. But I still will not join with your thoughts here. I have no idea who in m wider acquaintance might be a traveller. Take each person as they come? And lifestyle is a different issue altogether..

That's all fine in an ideal world Grace but how many incidents have you had with travellers? If its only 2, that's 100%.

99% of the time m experience with a traveller, it has been negative. How do you take each person as they come and not look at your own experience when that's the case? I' not even counting the amount of times I've been walking around, minding my own business and some little dirtbird starts throwing shapes at me. Never had that from a settled kid and a lot of them are little scumbags too.

Loves_lorries

Judson Calm Remote wrote: »

Plenty of employers will readily hire other ethnic and racial minorities, but will have reservations about employing travellers. Why? Not because of their ethnicity, but because of the documented prevalence of violence and criminality in the traveller community.

Also, if you cross one traveller, you can have the entire local traveller community coming after you. If a shop owner hires young Mary McDonagh to work in his business, and later discovers that she's been helping herself to the contents of the till, he probably faces intimidation and threats of violence from the entire local Quinn-McDonagh-Nevin connection if he has to fire her. He has legitimate reason to fear for his personal safety and for his business premises. Logical conclusion: Don't take the risk. Don't hire Mary McDonagh in the first place.

It's all very well for academics to sit in their ivory towers and write papers about discrimination and ethnicity and the plight of the poor travellers. Any business owner in Ireland knows it's far more complicated than that.

Ivory Tower cavier bolsheveiks know nothing about travellers, they only romanticise them because it annoys regular people.

Jedidiah Lazy Moped

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

Frankly, why should the settled community change? Already so many olive branches have been extended thanks to our taxes, yet the horrendous behaviour continues. There is no reason for us to change

Fine. Look, I've no skin in this game. I can live my life just fine, anti-traveller discrimination, or none.

But if the people who complain about travellers want any change, then they're going to also have to change their attitude towards travellers. Both sides are going to have to move, that's how any negotiation works.

You can complain that it's unfair and people can declare that they'll continue to discriminate; fine by me. But nothing will ever change.

chopperbyrne

I live in Bunclody, which is literally one of Ireland's worst towns: http://www.thejournal.ie/bunclody-election-2609237-Feb2016/

It has a very high traveller population.

The local primary and secondary schools get huge grants because of this.

Primary age kids are regularly out of school, and it's very rare I've seen a traveller teenager in a school uniform.

They need to help themselves, as the state has given them as much as possible already.

Loves_lorries

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

to be honest, it sounds harsh, but anyone of Margaret Cash's age or older is a lost cause. We need to just look upon this as a societal version of a 'sunk cost', and try instead to invest in travellers at school-going age.

Any change that will happen, will have to come from the youngest generation.

We have had more or less carrot for the past few decades with travellers, hasn't worked, we need stick for the next few decades.

A start would be phasing out child benefit after three kids, leave the dole as is but deduct for court representation fees, no form of welfare disproportionately benefits travellers as much as child benefit so where kids leave school early, its cut.

Liberals have been entirely wrong about travellers, stop listening to them, stop funding pavee point etc.

Vincent browne will be apoplectic but that's just one of the upsides.

Gimme A Pound

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Fine. Look, I've no skin in this game. I can live my life just fine, anti-traveller discrimination, or none.

But if the people who complain about travellers want any change, then they're going to also have to change their attitude towards travellers. Both sides are going to have to move, that's how any negotiation works.

You can complain that it's unfair and people can declare that they'll continue to discriminate; fine by me. But nothing will ever change.

Cherry pick all you like, ignore and omit points that don't suit, make sly allegations of anti traveller discrimination, but you'll just continue to look as dishonest and obtuse as you appear to have a lot of form for.

Jimmy.

Will she bang another few out?

Jedidiah Lazy Moped

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

Cherry pick all you like, ignore and omit points that don't suit, make sly allegations of anti traveller discrimination, but you'll just continue to look as dishonest and obtuse as you appear to have a lot of form for.

Eh?

Not sure what i'm supposed to be cherry-picking, given my criticism of travellers and their propensity towards anti-social crime and domestic violence.

You can leave out the personal abuse if it's any easier on your fingers; nobody really cares what a randomer says about them on the internet. All I'm suggesting is that for there to be any progress in relations between the settled community and travellers, both sides are going to have to change their attitudes.

NasserShammaz

Travellers are a pain in the ar#e who rarely contribute anything but swallow unending amounts of resources. They show little or no interest in their children's futures instead consistently blaming everyone else for the situation they are in when in fact its their own ignorance and laziness that as trapped them in a cycle or poverty and uselessness. They have no interest in society unless it can be used to their benefit and choose to live outside its even most basic levels of respect and common decency unless their rights appear to have been infringed. They don't give a sh#t about my rights my environment my safety my country and care less about them. If never heard or saw another one of these Neanderthals again in my life I would be delighted.

AlekSmart

Jedidiah Lazy Moped wrote: »

Cherry pick all you like, ignore and omit points that don't suit, make sly allegations of anti traveller discrimination, but you'll just continue to look as dishonest and obtuse as you appear to have a lot of form for.

But,it's not all bad news though,as Ms Cash's example is filtering through to other discriminated against groups also.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/six-children-had-to-sleep-at-hospital-due-to-lack-of-housing-1.3627294

The Romanian family, comprising six children and six adults, presented at Athlone Garda station on the night of September 5th with nowhere to sleep.

NasserShammaz

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

AlekSmart wrote: »

But,it's not all bad news though,as Ms Cash's example is filtering through to other discriminated against groups also.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/six-children-had-to-sleep-at-hospital-due-to-lack-of-housing-1.3627294

no surprise standard advice now from pavee point

Im sure Turbriddy will give john "man of the traveller" conners a proper grilling tonight:rolleyes:

BBFAN

Deebles McBeebles wrote: »

That's all fine in an ideal world Grace but how many incidents have you had with travellers? If its only 2, that's 100%.

99% of the time m experience with a traveller, it has been negative. How do you take each person as they come and not look at your own experience when that's the case? I' not even counting the amount of times I've been walking around, minding my own business and some little dirtbird starts throwing shapes at me. Never had that from a settled kid and a lot of them are little scumbags too.

On the reverse side of that, I've only ever had positive experiences with travellers, 1 a hairdresser in my local town who is a lovely lady and another 2 ladies I met on a course.

So that's 100% positive.

mynamejeff

in the event of a complete removal of all travellers from society all of a sudden one day what would be the negative implications of this ?

there are plenty of immigrant groups who came to Ireland and added to Ireland but travellers are ment to be Irish and have never added anything just taken ?