If all cyclists waited at the red light...

AndrewJRenko

tomasrojo wrote: »

I asked a teenager to stop passing me at the lights, as he was ambling between lights, and it was a really narrow road. So he passed me again,breaking the lights again, turned into a housing estate and danced around singing "I won! I won!"

So, to cut a long story short, I've never tried that again.

Haven't encountered that particular scenario with teenagers myself, but as a general point, getting a smart ass or abusive response in these situations does not negate the value of raising the issue in the first place. There is a chance that, regardless what kind of response you got, when faced with that situation again, the person might have a second though about their approach.

Rechuchote

Perhaps one month, instead of the fun Sunday Liffey Cycle to protest the lack of a Liffey Cycle Route along the quays, Dublin Cycling could call on the same large crowd to cycle along the quays, obediently stopping at ever red light and not going on until it turned green?

gk5000

I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone - but I stop at big junctions as they are too hard to predict. Though I predominantly cycle and choose quieter roads.



So for pedestrian lights generally you can cycle after the people have walked.


My route does not involve much of this single file stuff like along the canal - I detest it.

gk5000

Recently cycled out the rock road from town to Sandycove at 5pm. Cyclists stopped at red lights even where they were on the straight-thru part of a T-Junction - so cars entering from the right.


I found this very strange - but got some looks from some cyclists as I sailed through - maybe some sort of etiquette but stupid in my book - as then you have all the cyclists taking off at the same time after the lights - and at the same time as the cars are taking off.


Safer for everybody in my opinion if cyclists continue in single file through the lights.

work

gk5000 wrote: »

Recently cycled out the rock road from town to Sandycove at 5pm. Cyclists stopped at red lights even where they were on the straight-thru part of a T-Junction - so cars entering from the right.


I found this very strange - but got some looks from some cyclists as I sailed through - maybe some sort of etiquette but stupid in my book - as then you have all the cyclists taking off at the same time after the lights - and at the same time as the cars are taking off.


Safer for everybody in my opinion if cyclists continue in single file through the lights.

Not sure where you normally cycle. I would agree most on the Rock road obey the rules except for a few idiots. We have laws and flaunting them really annoys others. The system may be crappy but lobby to change the system if you so choose.
It's great explaining to my 4 and 6 year old laws are for them but others feel they know better.

gk5000

work wrote: »

Not sure where you normally cycle. I would agree most on the Rock road obey the rules except for a few idiots. We have laws and flaunting them really annoys others. The system may be crappy but lobby to change the system if you so choose.
It's great explaining to my 4 and 6 year old laws are for them but others feel they know better.

I believe the laws of the road are largely dictated by motorized traffic and do not suit cyclists. I believe the laws could/should be changed but do not expect this to happen and shall not waste time on it.
I am just stating what I do. Its up to you how you raise your kid, but it I don't think its reasonable to expect me to be concerned how my actions affect this.
Shall you always require your kids - say over 15 to only cross the road at green pedestrian lights?

magicbastarder

gk5000 wrote: »

Cyclists stopped at red lights even where they were on the straight-thru part of a T-Junction - so cars entering from the right

any examples of these junctions? do you mean junctions with off road or on road cycle lanes?

gk5000

magicbastarder wrote: »

any examples of these junctions? do you mean junctions with off road or on road cycle lanes?

On road cycle/bus lane going straight through on Merrion Road/Rock Road
Cars coming from the right on Trimbleston Ave

https://goo.gl/maps/cvGugfc73eS2

magicbastarder

i cycle that route. i certainly don't go through red lights there - any motorists exiting trimleston avenue and heading southbound will not likely be impressed with (i.e. may not have accounted for) cyclists running a red and being in a space the motorist had quite reasonable expectation should be clear.

regardless of whether the motorist was expecting to use that space or not - at a basic level, it's simply rude to cycle out in front of a car like that, regardless of the safety aspects.

gk5000

magicbastarder wrote: »

i cycle that route. i certainly don't go through red lights there - any motorists exiting trimleston avenue and heading southbound will not likely be impressed with (i.e. may not have accounted for) cyclists running a red and being in a space the motorist had quite reasonable expectation should be clear.

regardless of whether the motorist was expecting to use that space or not - at a basic level, it's simply rude to cycle out in front of a car like that, regardless of the safety aspects.

It depends on the situation on the ground - most of the traffic may be turning left with none going right, or all the right turning traffic may be turning into the right hand lane leaving the left lane completely free - so in both cases not inconveniencing anyone or cycling into anyones space.

Edit to add - I stress there is no suggestion of cycling in front of anybody as as I stated in the previous post "I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone ".

Grassey

gk5000 wrote:

I found this very strange - but got some looks from some cyclists as I sailed through - maybe some sort of etiquette but stupid in my book

Not etiquette... Rather following traffic laws.

Few similar type junctions on my route. I find it annoying the cyclists that shout abuse at you stopped as they hurtle through into the path of cyclists coming from the right, or through pedestrian crossings with green lights.

It's really not difficult to act predictably and follow basic red stop green go rules, it really adds negligible time to a journey

gk5000

Grassey wrote: »

Not etiquette... Rather following traffic laws.

Few similar type junctions on my route. I find it annoying the cyclists that shout abuse at you stopped as they hurtle through into the path of cyclists coming from the right, or through pedestrian crossings with green lights.

It's really not difficult to act predictably and follow basic red stop green go rules, it really adds negligible time to a journey

I had stated in previous post

"I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone" and that includes other cyclists or pedestrians.
I mean etiquette in that nobody seemed to be breaking the red - obviously it is against the law. I don't agree with shouting abuse either - I just do my own thing.

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

I believe the laws of the road are largely dictated by motorized traffic and do not suit cyclists. I believe the laws could/should be changed but do not expect this to happen and shall not waste time on it.
I am just stating what I do. Its up to you how you raise your kid, but it I don't think its reasonable to expect me to be concerned how my actions affect this.
Shall you always require your kids - say over 15 to only cross the road at green pedestrian lights?

It's very reasonable for us to expect YOU to obey the laws of the land. You don't think the laws apply to you? They do! The only consolation is your on a bike (your a danger to yourself and few others)....I certainly hope you don't drive the way you cycle!

gk5000

07Lapierre wrote: »

It's very reasonable for us to expect YOU to obey the laws of the land. You don't think the laws apply to you? They do! The only consolation is your on a bike (your a danger to yourself and few others)....I certainly hope you don't drive the way you cycle!

I never said the laws to not apply. I just choose not to follow all of them?
I follow most rules in a car - but am prone to speeding when I can safely do so.


But do you obey all rules - say only cross roads at pedestrian lights when they are green? or do you cross when it is convenient like 90% of other Irish people?

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

I never said the laws to not apply. I just choose not to follow all of them?
I follow most rules in a car - but am prone to speeding when I can safely do so.


But do you obey all rules - say only cross roads at pedestrian lights when they are green? or do you cross when it is convenient like 90% of other Irish people?

Cross roads? What like "on foot" like a ped? God no...I'm a CYCLIST.

Can you post a link to the law that states you must cross a road at pedestrian lights? (Where I live there are none!)

gk5000

07Lapierre wrote: »

Cross roads? What like "on foot" like a ped? God no...I'm a CYCLIST.

Can you post a link to the law that states you must cross a road at pedestrian lights? (Where I live there are none!)

Ok, do you obey all applicable laws or do you (like most people I believe) chose to break or disregard some?

gk5000

I think some of the cyclists here should get off their high horses.


Everybody(most) chooses which laws to follow/disregard - but it's only some who choose to preach and attempt to act as sainted guardians...





http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print


34 Pedestrians to exercise care
34. A pedestrian shall exercise care and take all reasonable precautions to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians, and, when at a road junction controlled by traffic lights, shall comply with bye-law 13 of these bye-laws in so far as it applies to a driver facing lights at which there is no stop line.



37 Pedestrian lights
37. A pedestrian about to cross a roadway at a place where pedestrian lights have been provided shall do so only when a lamp of the pedestrian lights facing him is lit and green.

38 Use of zebra crossings 38.—(1) On a roadway on which a zebra crossing has been provided a pedestrian shall not cross the roadway within 50 feet of the crossing except by the crossing.

... and there is more

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

I think some of the cyclists here should get off their high horses.


Everybody(most) chooses which laws to follow/disregard - but it's only some who choose to preach and attempt to act as sainted guardians...





http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1964/si/294/made/en/print


34 Pedestrians to exercise care
34. A pedestrian shall exercise care and take all reasonable precautions to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians, and, when at a road junction controlled by traffic lights, shall comply with bye-law 13 of these bye-laws in so far as it applies to a driver facing lights at which there is no stop line.



37 Pedestrian lights
37. A pedestrian about to cross a roadway at a place where pedestrian lights have been provided shall do so only when a lamp of the pedestrian lights facing him is lit and green.

38 Use of zebra crossings 38.—(1) On a roadway on which a zebra crossing has been provided a pedestrian shall not cross the roadway within 50 feet of the crossing except by the crossing.

... and there is more

Thanks for that....nice to know that when I cross the road I'm not breaking the law....as long as I don't cause danger or inconvenience.

gk5000

07Lapierre wrote: »

Thanks for that....nice to know that when I cross the road I'm not breaking the law....as long as I don't cause danger or inconvenience.

and cross at a green light etc...
anyway, play with syntax as much as you like, you're only fooling yourself - you as much as anybody else chooses to disregard certain laws, but wish to condemn others who do so as cyclists albeit commuters

doozerie

gk5000 wrote: »

I think some of the cyclists here should get off their high horses.


Everybody(most) chooses which laws to follow/disregard - but it's only some who choose to preach and attempt to act as sainted guardians...

Wow. Just ...wow.

You might want to take a moment to think about the fact that other people obeying the rules of the road helps keep you safe. If everyone adopted your approach then not only would you have to watch for other road users that pose a threat to you as you go through red lights, you'd also have to watch for them just as carefully every time you go through green. Well, at least they'd have climbed off "their high horses" (or, in other words, stopped giving a toss about the consequences of their actions) and that'd be good, right?

tomasrojo

Grassey wrote: »

Few similar type junctions on my route. I find it annoying the cyclists that shout abuse at you stopped as they hurtle through into the path of cyclists coming from the right

That's my major misgiving about people breaking the lights at t-junctions. Most of the time they don't get in the way of cars, but they do get in the way of bikes.

I'd forgotten till just now about a time earlier in the summer where I had the green light (on my bike), went up the stem of the T, was turning right, and a cyclist bore down on me from my left, going through the red on his side, and we were on a collision course, both headed for the same cycle track on the other side of the junction. He got very affronted at my cavalier attitude to his safety or right of way, or whatever was going on in the draughty halls of his mind.

Scoondal

When I'm driving around and I see cyclists, runners,walkers, horses or cows, I just think that the Irish word for road is Bothar. Cows, horses, people and bicycles have been on the road longer than cars.

work

gk5000 wrote: »

work wrote: »

Not sure where you normally cycle. I would agree most on the Rock road obey the rules except for a few idiots. We have laws and flaunting them really annoys others. The system may be crappy but lobby to change the system if you so choose.
It's great explaining to my 4 and 6 year old laws are for them but others feel they know better.

I believe the laws of the road are largely dictated by motorized traffic and do not suit cyclists. I believe the laws could/should be changed but do not expect this to happen and shall not waste time on it.
I am just stating what I do. Its up to you how you raise your kid, but it I don't think its reasonable to expect me to be concerned how my actions affect this.
Shall you always require your kids - say over 15 to only cross the road at green pedestrian lights?

Wow where do I begin. Firstly break the law if you like we are aware the enforcement is NIL. However it is rich to justify it. In answer to your post.
Laws are there for everyone. Breaking them and flaunting it does not make it right and there can never be a justification. It really feeds the anti-cycle lobby. No it is not up to you to be concerned about my kids education but it is the continual explaining of muppets behaviour to them that wears thin. Your example just feeds more muppet behaviour. There is no legal obligation to cross at green lights it is only if you are within so many metres of lights. I hope the exposure of people that think laws are optional doesn't feed their behaviour too much but it will impact unfortunately.

gk5000

doozerie wrote: »

Wow. Just ...wow.

You might want to take a moment to think about the fact that other people obeying the rules of the road helps keep you safe. If everyone adopted your approach then not only would you have to watch for other road users that pose a threat to you as you go through red lights, you'd also have to watch for them just as carefully every time you go through green. Well, at least they'd have climbed off "their high horses" (or, in other words, stopped giving a toss about the consequences of their actions) and that'd be good, right?

Read my posts if you like before commenting:

"I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone "

gk5000

work wrote: »

Wow where do I begin. Firstly break the law if you like we are aware the enforcement is NIL. However it is rich to justify it. In answer to your post.
Laws are there for everyone. Breaking them and flaunting it does not make it right and there can never be a justification. It really feeds the anti-cycle lobby. No it is not up to you to be concerned about my kids education but it is the continual explaining of muppets behaviour to them that wears thin. Your example just feeds more muppet behaviour. There is no legal obligation to cross at green lights it is only if you are within so many metres of lights. I hope the exposure of people that think laws are optional doesn't feed their behaviour too much but it will impact unfortunately.

Why do you feel the need to call me a muppet etc.?


The anti cycle lobby is an interesting one - and may be the nub of the issue.
There is an anti "mamal" lobby - an anti "cyclist with attitude lobby" - an anti groups of cyclists blocking the roads...an anti group of cyclist who spouts this crap on boards...



But I don't think most people have a problem with the "ODC" Ordinary Decent Commuter/Cyclist/Criminal (pick whichever) ..who wear proper hi-vis without deference to the tour de France and the drugs de jure



I break the odd red light where it is of no consequence, and where it is safe and does not inconvenience people.



So climb out of your lycra and drink your milk.....

Rechuchote

gk5000 wrote: »

I think some of the cyclists here should get off their high horses.

Cyclists don't ride high horses. They ride bicycles.

gk5000 wrote: »

The anti cycle lobby is an interesting one - and may be the nub of the issue.
There is an anti "mamal" lobby - an anti "cyclist with attitude lobby" - an anti groups of cyclists blocking the roads...an anti group of cyclist who spouts this crap on boards...

But I don't think most people have a problem with the "ODC" Ordinary Decent Commuter/Cyclist/Criminal (pick whichever) ..who wear proper hi-vis without deference to the tour de France and the drugs de jure

I couldn't agree with this. I find a certain type of motorist - intellectually disadvantaged, arrogant, self-entitled - can be rude, stupid and dangerous towards me, and I'm an elderly woman cycling along with my shopping. This only started with the 'anti-cyclist' rants on radio and in the gutter press.

Grassey

gk5000 wrote:

Ordinary Decent Cyclist... (pick whichever) ..who wear proper highvis

What is this 'proper highvis?

And is it only proper so other road users can spot you executing your freeman rights of the land to choose which laws apply today?

work

gk5000 wrote: »

work wrote: »

Wow where do I begin. Firstly break the law if you like we are aware the enforcement is NIL. However it is rich to justify it. In answer to your post.
Laws are there for everyone. Breaking them and flaunting it does not make it right and there can never be a justification. It really feeds the anti-cycle lobby. No it is not up to you to be concerned about my kids education but it is the continual explaining of muppets behaviour to them that wears thin. Your example just feeds more muppet behaviour. There is no legal obligation to cross at green lights it is only if you are within so many metres of lights. I hope the exposure of people that think laws are optional doesn't feed their behaviour too much but it will impact unfortunately.

Why do you feel the need to call me a muppet etc.?


The anti cycle lobby is an interesting one - and may be the nub of the issue.
There is an anti "mamal" lobby - an anti "cyclist with attitude lobby" - an anti groups of cyclists blocking the roads...an anti group of cyclist who spouts this crap on boards...



But I don't think most people have a problem with the "ODC" Ordinary Decent Commuter/Cyclist/Criminal (pick whichever) ..who wear proper hi-vis without deference to the tour de France and the drugs de jure



I break the odd red light where it is of no consequence, and where it is safe and does not inconvenience people.



So climb out of your lycra and drink your milk.....

I did not call you a Muppet but was referring to your behaviour, apologies if You misunderstood or if my wording came accross like that. You are obviously smart and can explain your thinking well. I think breaking the law and flaunting it is pure muppetry sorry but that is my opinion. Just because you feel safe doing it doesn't make it good, ideal or acceptacble.
Here are some reasons not to do it.
1) You are breaking the countries laws.
2) You are a bad example.
3) You are not infallible, may make a mistake, cause an accident and hurt yourself or others.
4) Others less experienced may follow you, be less traffic aware, and have a negative outcome.
5) It is bad manners.
6) You feed the general anti cycle group think.
7) It is divisional among cyclists........"There goes another twat bringing us all down". .......thoughts in my head as I see it and often voiced among the law abiding cyclists waiting and drivers watching it.
8) It is dangerous
9) It makes people feel unsafe
10) It is frustrating having to overtake the same bike repeatedly because they keep sauntering through lights and just getting in everyone's way.

Finally the use of words that you do not like are not directed at you so do not be offended. They are directed to those with your behaviour and that think it is OK.

doozerie

gk5000 wrote: »

Read my posts if you like before commenting:

I did. Every word. My comment/post was because of what you wrote, not in spite of it.

gk5000 wrote:

"I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone "

Yeah, I hear and read that a lot from people working hard to justify all sorts of anti-social behaviour. They'd have you believe that such behaviour is totally innocuous and without consequence.

Yet, when it comes to the roads many people are hurt or killed every year. I choose to believe that none of those people willingly chose to be the cause of, or victim of, a collision, that the collisions most likely occurred because some person(s) made a mistake.

Mistakes happen all the time, someones because people don't stop and think before they act, sometimes because people look for a hazard but don't spot it, etc. I obey the rules of the road (or, in your opinion apparently I "climb onto my high horse") because I accept that I am not infallible and I don't want to be either the victim of, or cause of, a collision through my own conscious actions.

07Lapierre

gk5000 wrote: »

Read my posts if you like before commenting:

"I go through all red lights unless it is dangerous to do so, or it would inconvenience someone "

Such as? Can you give us an example of such lights? Pedestrian crossings maybe?