If all cyclists waited at the red light...

magicbastarder

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

jon1981

magicbastarder wrote: »

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

They have invented one => expensive wheels with really loud freehubs

P_1

Or people can make an annoying bring bring noise like the chap who decided we clearly weren't going fast enough for his liking on the N11 cycle track yesterday.

Twats like that get on my nerves. If you want to go fast use the bloody bus lane

cdaly_

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

AMBER
AMBER
AMBER
AMBER
AMBER
AMBER

No but you can drive through on flashing amber if the way is clear.










Isn't that what you meant?...

tomasrojo

I guess a lot of this comes down to the spirit of the law and the letter of the law. (Well, the bell business maybe is more of a dead-letter law, more or less, though it falls a bit short of that, as it's quite possible to see it being revivified with fines, Australian-style.) Quite a lot has been written about spirit vs. letter for hundreds of years, though the extremes are easy enough for people to agree on most of the time (murdering people is a hard one to get away with in countries that aren't falling apart).

A law was written (I presume) to protect pedestrians on footpaths from harm from cyclists. It's pretty clear that people are not allowed to cycle on footpaths, and we have punishments for people who break that law. But we still allow small children to cycle on footpaths, because they don't have the mass, or usually, the speed to cause that much harm, and we judge that they aren't sufficiently mature to use the road. However, we still are allowing people, mostly parents in this case, to make judgement calls about breaking the law. In fact, if you didn't break the law and made your four-year-old cycle on a busy road rather than the empty footpath beside it, people would judge you quite harshly.

So I think people would overwhelmingly agree that the parent making the child use the busy road was being bizarrely legalistic.

I suppose the point I'm making is that we don't really expect people to follow the letter of the law blindly, we mostly hope that they'll follow the spirit of the law. So while most people here agree that breaking reds isn't justifiable, saying that it's the law and you must follow it isn't really how citizens interact with the law generally.

(People's relationship with doing 50km/h in a 30km/h zone is an interesting case too.)

Grassey

magicbastarder wrote: »

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

Will this do? The Knog Oi Bell

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

Some people like the Knog Oi one, but it's not very loud according to reviews.


EDIT: Beaten to the punch

seamus

magicbastarder wrote: »

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

https://hidemybell.cc/en/theproduct/
Clever, out-front Garmin mount with a bell on the underside. Not sure whether it's actually useful though or just satisfies the legal requirement without compromising the look of the bike - seems like a lot of effort is require to ring it.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/knog-oi-classic-bell/rp-prod159696?gs=1&sku=sku586897
This is nice, but complaints appear to be that it's not very loud. Again, satisfies the legal bit, may not be at all fit for purpose.

tomasrojo

Very quiet or hard-to-access bells definitely are more a letter-of-the-law than spirit-of-the-law thing.

Rechuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

Someone needs to invent a bell which looks good. Maybe they have, but I don't think I've seen one. I guess they have to be round to ring clearly, no aero shapes possible.

Only bell I've found that rings loudly like the old-fashioned ones on Queen's I Want to Ride My Bicycle was one I got in a bike shop in France. Most of the ones you can buy here or in Britain are aluminium and have a dull sound that disappears into traffic noise.

What's the point of having a bell that's beautiful but inaudible?

Chips Lovell

The best bell I've ever had isn't actually mounted to a bike. It's on my sambuca trowel:



*Every good host should own a sambuca trowel

07Lapierre

The last Bell i owned was on a Raleigh "Dodo" and i was 4 years old! i didnt use it then and I've no intention of using one now

tomasrojo

Rechuchote wrote: »

Most of the ones you can buy here or in Britain are aluminium and have a dull sound that disappears into traffic noise.

Is the one you got in France made of brass?

two wheels good

buffalo wrote: »

Stick it under your saddle so. :pac:

More seriously, a bike bell shouldn't be used in the same manner as a car horn, so the comparison isn't really relevant.

Shouldn't they be used in exactly the same manner, with the same purpose: To let another road user know of your presence?
Unless of course you think the purpose of a car horn is to rebuke other road users or vent your anger.

I think a cycle bell is very useful on any route shared with pedestrians.

Rechuchote

tomasrojo wrote: »

Is the one you got in France made of brass?

Steel, I think. It cost €7.

two wheels good wrote: »

Shouldn't they be used in exactly the same manner, with the same purpose: To let another road user know of your presence?
Unless of course you think the purpose of a car horn is to rebuke other road users or vent your anger.

I think a cycle bell is very useful on any route shared with pedestrians.

Surely car horns are supposed to be used to warn specifically of danger?

Bike bells can be used to warn pedestrians of your presence when you're coming towards them on a shared path; however, they're not as much use now that so many people wander the streets and the pathways wearing headphones.

tomasrojo

I think horns and bells for whatever vehicle are meant to alert others to your approach or presence. Since car horns are much louder, I guess they can be used to get the attention of other drivers, but then you have to Marcel Marceau to say what the hazard or whatever is.

seamus

Rechuchote wrote: »

Surely car horns are supposed to be used to warn specifically of danger?

This comes from 1961, so it may have since been changed, but the road traffic act is such a mess, it's hard to tell:

86. (1) Subject to the following sub-articles of this article, the driver of every vehicle which is required by article 28 of these Regulations to be fitted with an audible warning device shall, whenever necessary in a public place, give audible and sufficient warning of the approach or position of the vehicle by sounding the device.

(2) A person shall not use, or permit to be used, any device provided on a vehicle for the purpose of giving audible warning except when such use is reasonably necessary on grounds of safety.

(3) (a) A person shall not, between the hours of 11.30 p.m. and 7 a.m., sound any audible warning device provided on a vehicle while the vehicle is on a road to which a speed limit of 30 miles per hour or 40 miles per hour under Section 45 or 46 of the Act applies:

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to a vehicle used for fire brigade, ambulance, or police purposes.

(b) Where a person is charged with a contravention of paragraph (a) of this sub-article, it shall be a good defence to the charge to show that the use of the audible warning device was necessary for the purpose of avoiding immediate danger.

In shorthand, the horn can be used when "reasonably necessary on grounds of safety" between 7am and 11:30pm and only for "avoiding immediate danger" outside of that.

Whereas a bike bell can be used for any reason, even if there's no safety issue. Or more correctly, there are no rules on when and how a bell should be used, simply that one must be fitted to non-racing bikes.

buffalo

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think horns and bells for whatever vehicle are meant to alert others to your approach or presence. Since car horns are much louder, I guess they can be used to get the attention of other drivers, but then you have to Marcel Marceau to say what the hazard or whatever is.

I used to think of bells as replacing car engine noise, but I think of bells as more like car indicators. They're used to alert people of your approach when they might cross your path.

Sure, you can get away without using them, but don't be surprised if someone pops out in front of you and you have to hit the brakes.



(My analogy is flawed due to the presence of bike indicators, also known as 'arms'.)

tomasrojo

seamus wrote: »

In shorthand, the horn can be used when "reasonably necessary on grounds of safety" between 7am and 11:30pm and only for "avoiding immediate danger" outside of that.

And the bit about roads with certain speed limits is denoting residential roads, I guess, so you don't wake up people sounding your horn.

seamus wrote: »

Whereas a bike bell can be used for any reason, even if there's no safety issue. Or more correctly, there are no rules on when and how a bell should be used, simply that one must be fitted to non-racing bikes.

It's very thin on detail alright: "a bell capable of being heard at a reasonable distance". You'd think they'd have just plucked a number out of the air. One furlong, or whatever weird unit they were using at the time.

07Lapierre

Ok this is about lights but it does show how trivial the law considers lawbreaking by cyclists:

“in 1981 I had to explain to my boss that I was in court the following day, with a frown inquired into my crime, I presented him with my charge sheet and his frown was replaced with laughter and smiles, like you Joe, the charges were for a bike I had no light,front or back, no reflectors on either wheels,etc,upon leaving the bosses office, to this day I remember him saying with a smirk that I could be facing 5 years in prison, when I did attend the court, the garda that charged me wasn't there, the judge commented that maybe the garda didn't show up to save himself the embarrassment of such a trivial charge and struck it out of court, letting me go with no consequence,.“

tomasrojo

Where's that from?

EDIT: the whole court rigmarole was the rationale for fixed-charge notices. Cyclists were rarely punished, because the courts kept looking at the Gardaí who brought cycling offences to court as time wasters.

Lumen

buffalo wrote: »

I used to think of bells as replacing car engine noise

This is what spokey dokeys are for.

Also useful for alerting passing ships.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TV6DfWfS9p4

tomasrojo

Motorists do tend to go on about red-light discipline as if it's a sign of their keener sense of citizenship engagement, which is almost as silly as cyclists priding themselves on keeping to speed limits. Cyclists don't get any praise for keeping to speed limits, because it's obvious their latitude for breaking speed limits is small. However, the latitude for motorists to break lights is pretty narrow as well, because lanes are plugged for motorists, once just one stops.

Speeding motorists are a factor in a larger number of serious collisions than cyclists breaking lights, but it's not treated as a moral failing. It's not exactly approved of, but many people, even many who don't drive, do regard motorists getting fined for doing 50km/h in a 30km/h zone as a bit ridiculous, and only offences along the lines of 80km/h in a 30km/h zone seem to attract much opprobrium.

07Lapierre

tomasrojo wrote: »

only offences along the lines of 80km/h in a 30km/h zone seem to attract much opprobrium.

And even then most comments are about how ridiculous the 30k speed limit is!

stevek93

I cycyle to work everyday 8km each way 16 in total so I see a lot of cyclist breaking red lights. It's really frustrating when I am sitting at a red light and ahole cyclist whizzes past not a bother to them. I was recently at a red light and 3 cyclist were moaning and grunting behind me wanting me to move so they can break the lights. I don't understand it what time do you save by taking these risk? Is your life really worth an extra 3 minutes saved during your journey? Or do they not notice the lights in good time?

mbradso2003

I cycle, drive and take Luas depending if im picking up from creche or going to college after work.

On days where I take Luas I cross road where ACC bank used to be facing the barge pub over the canal cycle path. Even when crossing on green man (which is red bicycle for cycle track) not one cyclist yields to the pedestrians who obviously have right of way. Only a matter of time before pedestrian is hit by cyclist at that junction.

Wishbone Ash

stevek93 wrote: »

I cycyle to work everyday 8km each way 16 in total so I see a lot of cyclist breaking red lights. It's really frustrating when I am sitting at a red light and ahole cyclist whizzes past not a bother to them....

You shouldn't let it be frustrating just because you have stopped. To me that's a bit like getting frustrated paying for goods in a shop because some people shop lift.

stevek93

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You shouldn't let it be frustrating just because you have stopped. To me that's a bit like getting frustrated paying for goods in a shop because some people shop lift.

I'm pretty sure it frustrates drivers as well...

tomasrojo

stevek93 wrote: »

I don't understand it what time do you save by taking these risk? Is your life really worth an extra 3 minutes saved during your journey? Or do they not notice the lights in good time?

I suspect they think they're saving more time than they are. As you say, probably a max. of maybe three, maybe five minutes over about 10km.

tomasrojo

mbradso2003 wrote: »

I cycle, drive and take Luas depending if im picking up from creche or going to college after work.

On days where I take Luas I cross road where ACC bank used to be facing the barge pub over the canal cycle path. Even when crossing on green man (which is red bicycle for cycle track) not one cyclist yields to the pedestrians who obviously have right of way. Only a matter of time before pedestrian is hit by cyclist at that junction.

Whatever about sneaky lefts at red and sneaking along the side at a t-junction, blowing through pedestrians is top-drawer asshole behaviour.