If all cyclists waited at the red light...

work

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Or perhaps it's the way people don't follow the rules that result in people being killed - you know, the ones that the RSA highlight every day for motorists - speeding, phoning, drink driving being the major ones.


This could just as easily happen after going through a green light - that someone following you without noticing that the light has changed to amber/red may follow you through.




Do you think that maybe you should upgrade your 'try not to' to 'never do it' before you go lecturing others?

I am not trying to lecture but your just looking for offense. Honesty is where I am trying to come from, if I said I never broke a speed limit you would call me a liar, My response was to a guy that breaks laws as he likes. I absolutely never break them intentionally, the alternative is impossible. CAN you see the difference. I doubt your the kind that can though!

work

gk5000 wrote: »

No, they legally apply to me - I fully accept this and have never said otherwise.

I stated that many traffic laws and the roads themselves were designed for motorized traffic and largely do not consider cyclists - and that it is best for me (and safest in many cases) to disregard certain rules when it is safe to do so without inconveniencing anybody else.

e.g.
Going through red after pedestrian has crossed allows me to be safely up to speed and visible prior to the cars starting off at the lights. This principle applies to many red lights - get ahead of the cars.

Going through 20 yards wrong way up a small quiet one way street allows be to avoid a busy multi-lane road and several complicated/dangerous junctions.


Being in single file in a line of cyclists, alongside a line of cars, lorries, buses all waiting on a green light as dictated by the rules on many roads is a very uncomfortable and I believe unsafe place to be. I dislike and believe it to be unsafe to be within an arms-length of any other road user, including cyclists but especially buses and lorries. I avoid these situations if possible - firstly by route selection, but then possibly by going through red...and back to the opening post/picture and title of this thread.

You just cannot help yourself:
If there was a garda car beside you would you disregard the laws as you state? If you are so well qualified as to know exactly which laws and situations apply to you perhaps run for office and help implement your version of law otherwise obey the rules. Who are you to decide what is safe, most people feel obeying the rules is safe?
Your scenario of going 20 yards up a street the wrong way says it all, why not just get off and walk. Too lazy as well as socially ignorant.
If you really find law abiding cycling so uncomfortable perhaps stop cycling because I am sick of idiot behavior like your bringing cyclists into disrepute and making the relationship between road users divisive. Play by the rules or get out of the game.

I really would like to see more people cycling but you are not needed or wanted by most other cyclists. Before you state that others break the rules that may be true on occasion but they are not stating they do it as a matter of course.

Wishbone Ash

gk5000 wrote: »

... Do all fixies have 2 brakes?....

A fixed gear bicycle is only legally required to have one brake when used on a public road.

AndrewJRenko

gk5000 wrote: »

Maybe the cycle lobby could try a little honest introspection to figure out the disconnect between their own high self regard v's the general public opinion - but I'll not hold my breath.

We'll get right on it, right after the motoring lobby tries a little honest introspection to figure out why they are killing 3 or 4 people each week on the roads and maiming many more.

flatface

This thread is getting very black and white.
When I started commuting 15 years ago I broke many a light just like my peers around me. Then after experience and reading this forum I changed my behaviour and very rarely break any ROTR on my bike, for many of the reasons listed by posters previously.

I definitely break more laws more often when driving than cycling and see more law breaking amongst other motorists than cyclists, despite the red light jumping. Speeding, dangerous overtaking, etc. is way more prevalent than RLJ.

What I don’t get is why cyclists are expected to hold themselves up to a standard that other road users don’t. Does the motors forum react like this to speeding?
Sure many of the common motorist’s gripes are fully legal, 2 abreast etc. Yes nobody should break lights, yes we should encourage anyone who says that they do to not do so, but this thread seems as hysterical as some motorists. Red light jumping is not THE problem on our roads

magicbastarder

gk5000 wrote: »

Maybe the cycle lobby could try a little honest introspection to figure out the disconnect between their own high self regard v's the general public opinion - but I'll not hold my breath.

you've come to the wrong place if you think the cycling forum is some sort of lobby or hive mind.

FWIW, i don't have a bell or reflectors on my bike. i've two lights up front and two behind.
i very rarely break red lights - usually when i do, it's because i suspect my bike hasn't triggered them. i'm able to cycle fast enough that breaking lights makes little difference to my journey time, and i'm also able to pull away from a green faster than most cars can (or maybe i'm doing it faster than most motorists react).

doozerie

flatface wrote:

What I don’t get is why cyclists are expected to hold themselves up to a standard that other road users don’t.

Personally I try to hold myself up to a standard that I think minimises the risk of me becoming either another road statistic, or becoming the cause of adding to those statistics. We have a defined (minimum) standard of behaviour, the rules of the road, that all road users are supposed to adhere to, your statement above seems to be suggesting that we cyclists should essentially aim for a lower standard as defined by the worst of road users.

What I don't understand at all is the offence that arises in these kinds of discussion, where people see the suggestion of following the rules of the road as some kind of failing, as if to do so where to "give in". Give in to what, to whom? I don't see my following the rules of the road as any kind of concession, I see it as part of being a normal member of society.

Being a member of society brings responsibilities with it. We are abiding by social rules all of the time, both written and unwritten, the rules of the road are just one set of many. If someone shoved past me in the queue at the supermarket, and I took issue with them, I doubt that others around me would sneerily tell me that my expecting the culprit to take their place behind me in the queue was ridiculous and that I was part of the problem for not behaving just like them. Yet that's the kind of response that gets trotted out when the rules of the road are being referred to.

flatface wrote:

Red light jumping is not THE problem on our roads

No, but it is one of many real problems. Ask most motorists whether using their phone while driving is THE problem on our roads, and my guess is that the vast majority would say no, does that mean we shouldn't aspire to better behaviour?

And before breaking red lights by cyclists is dismissed as entirely innocuous, it really isn't. I've had quite a few occasions where I've had to slam on my brakes when a cyclist has broken a red light to take a "safe left" to pull out in front of me at a junction - they either didn't look at all (most often the case), looked but didn't see me, or saw me but just didn't care and left it entirely up to me to avoid a collision. I have no faith whatsoever in the world described by some of being able to consistently and *safely* break red lights.

AndrewJRenko

gk5000 wrote: »

Maybe the cycle lobby could try a little honest introspection to figure out the disconnect between their own high self regard v's the general public opinion - but I'll not hold my breath.

Actually, having given it some mature reflection, perhaps my initial response was a little glib. I don't speak for any lobby, but I've done a fair bit of honest introspection on this.

The question is that, if I were to wave a magic wand and get all cyclists to obey all red lights, one way streets, have bells on their bike tomorrow, would this significantly change public opinion about cyclists?

My view, based on the nature of anti-cycling vehemence that I see here and elsewhere on social media, is that it would have little or no impact. If they couldn't whinge about RLJing, they'd be whinging about 'road tax', helmets, 'lycra louts', insurance, too hilly and all the other moans. RLJing isn't the problem - being different to them is the 'problem'.

work wrote: »

I am not trying to lecture but your just looking for offense. Honesty is where I am trying to come from, if I said I never broke a speed limit you would call me a liar, My response was to a guy that breaks laws as he likes. I absolutely never break them intentionally, the alternative is impossible. CAN you see the difference. I doubt your the kind that can though!

Where does 'intentional' come into it? If this is important, as you seem to suggest it is, it is your responsibility to make sure you don't break the rules. Breaking the rules unintentionally carries the same risk as breaking the rules intentionally.

work wrote: »

If there was a garda car beside you would you disregard the laws as you state?

To be honest, based on the way most drivers drive beside garda cars, and based on the example given by garda drivers themselves, I wouldn't be too worried about all but the most blatant traffic law breaches in front of Gardai.

They're not that bothered really. I've given them clear video evidence of traffic law breaches, and they are amazingly creative at coming up with excuses for not prosecuting.

doozerie wrote: »

And before breaking red lights by cyclists is dismissed as entirely innocuous, it really isn't. I've had quite a few occasions where I've had to slam on my brakes when a cyclist has broken a red light to take a "safe left" to pull out in front of me at a junction - they either didn't look at all (most often the case), looked but didn't see me, or saw me but just didn't care and left it entirely up to me to avoid a collision. I have no faith whatsoever in the world described by some of being able to consistently and *safely* break red lights.

Just to try to quantify the risk and danger involved, I can't think of one road death or case of serious injury that was due to a cyclist breaking a red light in living memory - can you?

Ray Bloody Purchase

doozerie wrote: »

And before breaking red lights by cyclists is dismissed as entirely innocuous, it really isn't. I've had quite a few occasions where I've had to slam on my brakes when a cyclist has broken a red light to take a "safe left" to pull out in front of me at a junction - they either didn't look at all (most often the case), looked but didn't see me, or saw me but just didn't care and left it entirely up to me to avoid a collision. I have no faith whatsoever in the world described by some of being able to consistently and *safely* break red lights.

I saw a classic example of this the other morning. Two cyclists broke a 'safe' red (with no left turn). The lad in front jammed on the brakes because a car was pulling out from the right and the person behind him ran up his arse.

Looked like the person behind was nearly flipped off because he pulled the front brakes.

I'll be honest, i always feel like a bit of a plonker sitting at those lights, with everyone else cycling on through. Totally justified now.

/smug

flatface

doozerie wrote: »

What I don't understand at all is the offence that arises in these kinds of discussion, where people see the suggestion of following the rules of the road as some kind of failing, as if to do so where to "give in". Give in to what, to whom? I don't see my following the rules of the road as any kind of concession, I see it as part of being a normal member of society.

I'm not offended, I am just concerned about the focus and attention on cyclist RLJ. The focus is purely because motorists don't do it as much or as blatently. They break other rules of the road with regularity instead. The rules they break are overall more dangerous to other road users.

While I am all for leading by example and following the rules, the narrow focus on just cyclist RLJ with maximum outrage seems unbalanced to me.

doozerie wrote: »

No, but it is one of many real problems. Ask most motorists whether using their phone while driving is THE problem on our roads, and my guess is that the vast majority would say no, does that mean we shouldn't aspire to better behaviour?

Im agreeing with you, it is a problem, one of many. And we should make big efforts to convert cyclists to obeying red lights. But the tone needs to be calm and relative to the seriousness of the crime, otherwise many will dismiss the advise as pure crankiness - how can people get so irate at cyclists breaking lights in the face of the widespread disregard by so many road users to many rules of the road, with fatal results every year?

doozerie wrote: »

And before breaking red lights by cyclists is dismissed as entirely innocuous, it really isn't. I've had quite a few occasions where I've had to slam on my brakes when a cyclist has broken a red light to take a "safe left" to pull out in front of me at a junction - they either didn't look at all (most often the case), looked but didn't see me, or saw me but just didn't care and left it entirely up to me to avoid a collision. I have no faith whatsoever in the world described by some of being able to consistently and *safely* break red lights.

Yes, I have loads of the same experiences. I do hate RLJing now that I don't do it. It just doesn't get me as upset as fast close overtakes, they really are not even in the same ballpark.

mr spuckler

flatface wrote: »

The focus is purely because motorists don't do it as much or as blatently.

I'm not sure about that - as someone here put it quite well previously, often times motorists don't break lights because they can't. ie they're not at the head of the queue.
look at how many motorists sail through on amber and for the first 2 or 3 seconds (or more) on red. it's blatant, but there seems to be a perception that it's not.

in general, one of the great things I find about these threads on here is how they make me think about my behaviour - I always think that I never break red lights but realised on the way home last night that I break one at the wooden bridge on the cycleway between Clontarf & Sutton, which I somehow disregard when I think that I obey all lights.

flatface

mr spuckler wrote: »

I'm not sure about that - as someone here put it quite well previously, often times motorists don't break lights because they can't. ie they're not at the head of the queue.
look at how many motorists sail through on amber and for the first 2 or 3 seconds (or more) on red. it's blatant, but there seems to be a perception that it's not.

Yes I agree. They can't breeze through like cyclists, and maybe they would if they could, but you know what I mean - there is a focus on cyclist RLJ because its different to how motorists break the ROTR. They look at cyclists rolling through a light and say, well at least I don't do that, how rude/dangerous/insane/ghastly while simultaneously ignoring the other bad behavior all around them.

cdaly_

mr spuckler wrote: »

I'm not sure about that - as someone here put it quite well previously, often times motorists don't break lights because they can't. ie they're not at the head of the queue.
look at how many motorists sail through on amber and for the first 2 or 3 seconds (or more) on red. it's blatant, but there seems to be a perception that it's not.

While a passenger in a car in Dublin city centre recently I saw very few cars running red lights entirely because I was too far back in the traffic to witness them. On the bike I see it constantly because I'm first at the lights waiting to go...

in general, one of the great things I find about these threads on here is how they make me think about my behaviour - I always think that I never break red lights but realised on the way home last night that I break one at the wooden bridge on the cycleway between Clontarf & Sutton, which I somehow disregard when I think that I obey all lights.

You mean the lights that are broken because they show red to the busiest route* (the cycle path) almost continuously?..





*ISTR some figures showing cycle commuter numbers exceeded car commuters?

CramCycle

gk5000 wrote: »

Maybe the peloton close ranks and don't like to admit to their own indiscretions or try to silence anybody who does... could have form in this regard?

Maybe the cycle lobby could try a little honest introspection to figure out the disconnect between their own high self regard v's the general public opinion - but I'll not hold my breath.

Big Cycling at it again :pac: You make it sound like there is some sort of Gestapo or militia. Most cyclists do not have a group of friends who are cyclists, around here you do because there is a more active interest but 90% of cyclists I pass (or get passed by) are clearly just getting to work and are no different than the motorists I pass every day. They chose cycling for ease, convenience, cost, time saving whatever but they have no personal interest in promoting cycling (although they have a benefit from those that do).

flatface wrote: »

This thread is getting very black and white.
When I started commuting 15 years ago I broke many a light just like my peers around me. Then after experience and reading this forum I changed my behaviour and very rarely break any ROTR on my bike, for many of the reasons listed by posters previously.

Same here, i broke lights all the time because I grew up in the country and at the time, cyclists to other people were pedestrians on bikes. You followed the same rules as pedestrians, I had school teachers say that you were meant to cycle towards traffic in the same way a pedestrian is told to walk towards traffic. The only reason I cycled on the right side of the road was because I liked pretending to be the same as other vehicles but honestly, didn't care. Interestingly though, after starting on here, and a few people pointing out issues with my cycling style, I made an effort to change, and I'll be damned, my journeys became safer and easier.

I definitely break more laws more often when driving than cycling and see more law breaking amongst other motorists than cyclists, despite the red light jumping. Speeding, dangerous overtaking, etc. is way more prevalent than RLJ.

Same here, I don't think I break any laws while driving but I am sure that I do almost unnoticeably, find a motorist who doesn't, and you have found a liar.

What I don’t get is why cyclists are expected to hold themselves up to a standard that other road users don’t. Does the motors forum react like this to speeding?

I hold myself to a higher standard because I think it benefits me and potentially society, I will continue to hold myself to it until I find myself in danger. I do dislike those cyclists who claim they break the rules for their own safety. That is horsesh1t, just say, no different than the driver who amber gambles or goes a bit above the limit, you simply found it easier or it made things slightly more convenient but be honest about it. It just really grinds my gear. "I ran that light because it was safer than waiting for the motorists behind me to move off", Bull, you done it because it got you where you were going quicker. You could have waited behind, waited in line, made eye contact or any number of things if safety was your concern but it wasn't.

Sure many of the common motorist’s gripes are fully legal, 2 abreast etc. Yes nobody should break lights, yes we should encourage anyone who says that they do to not do so, but this thread seems as hysterical as some motorists. Red light jumping is not THE problem on our roads

100%

mr spuckler

cdaly_ wrote: »

You mean the lights that are broken because they show red to the busiest route* (the cycle path) almost continuously?..

regardless of which is busier, being perfectly honest both I and many other cyclists break them for reasons of convenience.

I obviously would like signal priority here and think that contacting councilors to change it is the way forward (and which I will now do), not breaking them and blaming someone else for it.

splinter65

Don’t know how those cyclists in Westminster managed to avoid more serious injury this morning. What a terrible fright to get.

flatface

CramCycle wrote: »

I hold myself to a higher standard because I think it benefits me and potentially society, I will continue to hold myself to it until I find myself in danger. I do dislike those cyclists who claim they break the rules for their own safety.

Totally true. But I find it interesting that I find the social pressure to obey the rules on the bike stronger than in the car for me. Maybe its just because I hang out here, or the its the negative mejia reporting on the cycling I wish to counter with squeaky clean behavour. Kind of screwed up really. I must make more effort to be a better motorist.

Lambay island

I travel into Dublin a little earlier that the majority approx 7.00-07.30 and maybe because there are less cyclists on the road, I recognise the same faces everyday.
I find it mad, when I thought about it earlier that I see these people almost every day and i'd never even acknowledge them or know their name(some i'm sure are on here), but i could tell when they were on holidays or got a new bike or jacket for instance. Actually come to think of it, I'm probably just a creep.

Anyway, ill get to my point. The majority(all i think) of these people I see regularly , I would find similar to myself in terms of not running red lights unless to avoid danger or sensor not picking them up etc. The ones I notice that are more careless and sometimes dangerous at ped crossing etc are people I only ever see that particular time. This could be just my route or the times I travel, but it leads me to the thought process of people who commute by bike everyday would be more law abiding then adhoc/fairweather cyclists.

Ray Bloody Purchase

Lambay island wrote: »

I travel into Dublin a little earlier that the majority approx 7.00-07.30 and maybe because there are less cyclists on the road, I recognise the same faces everyday.
I find it mad, when I thought about it earlier that I see these people almost every day and i'd never even acknowledge them or know their name(some i'm sure are on here), but i could tell when they were on holidays or got a new bike or jacket for instance. Actually come to think of it, I'm probably just a creep.

Anyway, ill get to my point. The majority(all i think) of these people I see regularly , I would find similar to myself in terms of not running red lights unless to avoid danger or sensor not picking them up etc. The ones I notice that are more careless and sometimes dangerous at ped crossing etc are people I only ever see that particular time. This could be just my route or the times I travel, but it leads me to the thought process of people who commute by bike everyday would be more law abiding then adhoc/fairweather cyclists.

Some Dublin Bike users can have an interesting approach to the rules of the road. I think i only notice them moreso because they are readily identifiable due to the bikes they are on.

mr spuckler

Lambay island wrote: »

I travel into Dublin a little earlier that the majority approx 7.00-07.30 and maybe because there are less cyclists on the road, I recognise the same faces everyday.
I find it mad, when I thought about it earlier that I see these people almost every day and i'd never even acknowledge them or know their name(some i'm sure are on here), but i could tell when they were on holidays or got a new bike or jacket for instance. Actually come to think of it, I'm probably just a creep.

Anyway, ill get to my point. The majority(all i think) of these people I see regularly , I would find similar to myself in terms of not running red lights unless to avoid danger or sensor not picking them up etc. The ones I notice that are more careless and sometimes dangerous at ped crossing etc are people I only ever see that particular time. This could be just my route or the times I travel, but it leads me to the thought process of people who commute by bike everyday would be more law abiding then adhoc/fairweather cyclists.

I also have my commuting 'friends', who probably don't even realise that I exist!

mr spuckler

flatface wrote: »

Totally true. But I find it interesting that I find the social pressure to obey the rules on the bike stronger than in the car for me. Maybe its just because I hang out here, or the its the negative mejia reporting on the cycling I wish to counter with squeaky clean behavour. Kind of screwed up really. I must make more effort to be a better motorist.

it's a numbers game isn't it? far more cars on the road and money in the motoring industry.

having briefly read this, it seems to somewhat cover the issue, although maybe from a slightly different angle.

Minority influence, a form of social influence, takes place when a member of a minority group influences the majority to accept the minority's beliefs or behavior.

Minority influence is more likely to occur if the point of view of the minority is consistent, flexible, and appealing to the majority.

However, any wavering opinions from the minority group could lead the majority to dismiss the minority's claims and opinions

Ray Bloody Purchase

mr spuckler wrote: »

I also have my commuting 'friends', who probably don't even realise that I exist!

I can tell what other regular cyclists i'll spot by what time i leave at in the morning. They're like myself, operating off a strict routine in the morning.

work

mr spuckler wrote: »

Lambay island wrote: »

I travel into Dublin a little earlier that the majority approx 7.00-07.30 and maybe because there are less cyclists on the road, I recognise the same faces everyday.
I find it mad, when I thought about it earlier that I see these people almost every day and i'd never even acknowledge them or know their name(some i'm sure are on here), but i could tell when they were on holidays or got a new bike or jacket for instance. Actually come to think of it, I'm probably just a creep.

Anyway, ill get to my point. The majority(all i think) of these people I see regularly , I would find similar to myself in terms of not running red lights unless to avoid danger or sensor not picking them up etc. The ones I notice that are more careless and sometimes dangerous at ped crossing etc are people I only ever see that particular time. This could be just my route or the times I travel, but it leads me to the thought process of people who commute by bike everyday would be more law abiding then adhoc/fairweather cyclists.

I also have my commuting 'friends', who probably don't even realise that I exist!

Ha Ha I suppose we are all stalkers. I notice people by the way they hold themselves, One leg slightly in, the slow one on the whole, the guy in tri shorts built like a brickouse.. . ....mad to think others are similar. Anyway sorry off point but a good observation. And funny enough the regulars are more law abiding.
In all fairness I was a bad cyclist when younger, didn't worry about the rules. I am of the opposite view and action now. I really would have appreciated some policing and education back then but I take full responsibility.

amcalester

Ray Bloody Purchase wrote: »

I can tell what other regular cyclists i'll spot by what time i leave at in the morning. They're like myself, operating off a strict routine in the morning.

I started to delay my departure time in the morning because another cyclist kept initiating conversation at each set of lights we stopped at.

Couldn’t be dealing with that at 7am.

It was either leave later or run the lights.

Lambay island

amcalester wrote: »

I started to delay my departure time in the morning because another cyclist kept initiating conversation at each set of lights we stopped at.

Couldn’t be dealing with that at 7am.

It was either leave later or run the lights.

sorry about that- u jut seemed so friendly looking! What time do you leave at now as a matter of interest?

amcalester

Lambay island wrote: »

sorry about that- u jut seemed so friendly looking! What time do you leave at now as a matter of interest?

I've moved house.

The girlfriend was getting pretty chatty too.

magicbastarder

splinter65 wrote: »

Don’t know how those cyclists in Westminster managed to avoid more serious injury this morning. What a terrible fright to get.

i heard one cyclist chased down the car after. bravo (especially if he was on foot and on look or SPD-SLs).

cdaly_

Lambay island wrote: »

I travel into Dublin a little earlier that the majority approx 7.00-07.30 and maybe because there are less cyclists on the road, I recognise the same faces everyday.
I find it mad, when I thought about it earlier that I see these people almost every day and i'd never even acknowledge them or know their name(some i'm sure are on here), but i could tell when they were on holidays or got a new bike or jacket for instance. Actually come to think of it, I'm probably just a creep.

There's a set of people I wave/nod to on the morning commute. Some cycling, some walking. I've spoken to probably three of them in a period of around 4 years of morning greetings...

On one occasion, one of the regular morning walkers seemed to have developed a limp. I was gonna stop to ask what had happened... :eek:

cdaly_

mr spuckler wrote: »

regardless of which is busier, being perfectly honest both I and many other cyclists break them for reasons of convenience.

I obviously would like signal priority here and think that contacting councilors to change it is the way forward (and which I will now do), not breaking them and blaming someone else for it.

Agreed. You can stop, press the pedestrian button and then wait (for aaggesss...).

I've been meaning to contact somebody about it too. Perhaps now is the time.

Grassey

magicbastarder wrote:

i heard one cyclist chased down the car after. bravo (especially if he was on foot and on look or SPD-SLs).

Probably thought he was Froome