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If all cyclists waited at the red light...

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    #332
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    itsatrap.jpg


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    #333
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,390 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    itsatrap.jpg

    Fair likeness too


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    #334
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Just curious - do you apply the same logic and rigor to staying absolutely under the speed limit whenever you drive?

    I'm curious too, but my curiosity is around the relevance of that question to this topic.

    But, I'll answer it anyway 'cos, you know the rules of politeness and stuff. Yes, I apply the same logic and rigour to driving within the speed limit.

    Do I always succeed? Absolutely not, I can't count the number of times that I've looked at the speedometer and found that I'm doing more than the 50kph limit, for example. I could try to justify it on the basis that I was just keeping pace with traffic around me, or that I was distracted, but those are poor excuses at best, it was my actions that led to my breaking the limit.

    When it happens I give myself a mental kick, as I should, and re-focus my efforts on driving responsibly by staying within the limit for one thing.

    ...there, what's the verdict, am I a terrible person? I am, aren't I? ...OH GAWD!!!


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    #335
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    don't forget that your speedo will overstate your speed. so if it indicates you're doing 55, it means you're probably closer to 50 than 55.


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    #336
    blondeonblonde
    Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭blondeonblonde


    doozerie wrote: »
    Me too. I see people turn left on red at a few junctions on my commute where I find myself looking around and thinking that I could do the same with no obvious (to me at the time) risk to anyone.

    It's a very insidious mindset though, one of the things that stops me giving into it (and sometimes it really does feel like a battle between me and my conscience) is the realisation that my margin for error changes dramatically depending on how much of a hurry I am in. If I'm late for work for example, I see a lot more junctions where I perceive that I could break the light "safely". The previous day, when I wasn't running late, I may well have categorised that same manoeuvre as risky.

    Basically, my assessment of risk in those circumstances is fundamentally flawed, given how it is so heavily influenced by my desire to shorten my journey time. My journey is a lot more "pleasant" when I entirely switch off that "will I, won't I" thought process and just accept that I'll be stopped until the light goes green.

    Can I ask, do you apply the same logic to crossing the street on foot? Do you always cross at a pedestrian light? Do you ever jay walk? Have you ever crossed on a red? I'm betting that you have...

    The reality is that there are plenty of places where it is perfectly safe to turn left on a red light when cycling. Countries such as the States even allow cars to turn right on red, when the way is clear. Our roads are not engineered or designed for cyclists and not all red lights are created equal. Call it moral relativism if you like but it is the truth.


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    #337
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    blondeonblonde wrote: »
    Countries such as the States even allow cars to turn right on red, when the way is clear.
    this is true. and probably would be welcome here to most road users. but there's an issue - there's a difference between road user behaviour which is allowed and expected, and an identical one which is disallowed and not expected.

    the very act of legislating for this can make it safer.


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    #338
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    blondeonblonde wrote: »
    Can I ask, do you apply the same logic to crossing the street on foot? Do you always cross at a pedestrian light? Do you ever jay walk? Have you ever crossed on a red? I'm betting that you have...

    The reality is that there are plenty of places where it is perfectly safe to turn left on a red light when cycling. Countries such as the States even allow cars to turn right on red, when the way is clear. Our roads are not engineered or designed for cyclists and not all red lights are created equal. Call it moral relativism if you like but it is the truth.

    Yes, I've jaywalked. I've also crossed on green pedestrian lights and nearly been clobbered by a cyclist breaking a red.

    Are you suggesting that because I've jaywalked I should adopt the same approach as those kinds of cyclists of breaking a red light when it suits me? Should I just assume that my judgement is far better than that of those cyclists that would have ridden through me has I not got out of their way, and that I'll never be the threat that they make themselves?

    What happens when I get it wrong, will there be a queue of people there to support me and say "ah sure, it was just bad luck, sure no-one could have foreseen that a pedestrian would cross on green"? Or will people look on and say "there, another feckin' cyclist being a menace, something needs to be done about them!"?

    As for other countries that allow traffic through on red, bully for them, if it's such a good thing (and it may well be, I'm not contesting that it can work where it is established and understood behaviour), then campaign for it to be adopted here rather than simply ignore red lights on that basis that it's lawful behaviour somewhere else in the world. (Here is another example: pretty much everyone in France cycles on the right hand side of the road, bar the odd tourist, and it works well for them, maybe us cyclists should try that here...).


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    #339
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,390 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    doozerie wrote: »

    ...there, what's the verdict, am I a terrible person? I am, aren't I? ...OH GAWD!!!

    Just as terrible those terrible cyclists that break red lights perhaps?


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    #340
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Just as terrible those terrible cyclists that break red lights perhaps?

    Really? How so?


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    #341
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,390 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    doozerie wrote: »
    Really? How so?

    Because you're breaking the law.

    If fact, you're breaking the law in a manner that results in multiple road deaths each year. Speeding by motorists is one of the top three causes of road deaths. Red light jumping by cyclists isn't.

    Isn't it a tad hypocritical to be jumping up and down about cyclists breaking red lights given that you're breaking the speed limit on every journey?


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    #342
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Because you're breaking the law.

    If fact, you're breaking the law in a manner that results in multiple road deaths each year. Speeding by motorists is one of the top three causes of road deaths. Red light jumping by cyclists isn't.

    Isn't it a tad hypocritical to be jumping up and down about cyclists breaking red lights given that you're breaking the speed limit on every journey?

    So you're basically saying that anyone who breaks the law, even unintentionally, has no say about others who break the law.

    So by your logic anyone who has ever unintentionally exceeded the speed limit while driving (which I'm going to guess is pretty much everyone that drives at some point or other) is as bad as those motorists that routinely and deliberately ignore speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, etc.? And presumably by the same logic jaywalking is breaking the law so anyone who has ever jaywalked is as bad as those motorists too?

    Have you ever broken any rule of the road yourself, because, brace yourself, you're going to have to take a long hard look at yourself since you are telling yourself you are as bad as "motorists that kill". And yet here you are, jumping up and down about me "breaking the speed limit on every journey" ("every journey"? Really? How do you make that out now?) when you are clearly, by your own logic, not entitled to do so.

    Perhaps we should just dissolve society, guilty as we all are of... well... EVERYTHING.


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    #343
    Rechuchote
    Registered Users Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭Rechuchote


    doozerie wrote: »
    So you're basically saying that anyone who breaks the law, even unintentionally, has no say about others who break the law.

    So by your logic anyone who has ever unintentionally exceeded the speed limit while driving (which I'm going to guess is pretty much everyone that drives at some point or other) is as bad as those motorists that routinely and deliberately ignore speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, etc.? And presumably by the same logic jaywalking is breaking the law so anyone who has ever jaywalked is as bad as those motorists too?

    Have you ever broken any rule of the road yourself, because, brace yourself, you're going to have to take a long hard look at yourself since you are telling yourself you are as bad as "motorists that kill". And yet here you are, jumping up and down about me "breaking the speed limit on every journey" ("every journey"? Really? How do you make that out now?) when you are clearly, by your own logic, not entitled to do so.

    Perhaps we should just dissolve society, guilty as we all are of... well... EVERYTHING.

    #headdesk


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    #344
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    Rechuchote wrote: »
    #headdesk

    Self harm is never the solution.


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    #345
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    maybe she was wearing a helmet though.


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    #346
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    maybe she was wearing a helmet though.

    In which case: Desk harm is always the solution.

    I recall back in the 80's when a school desk caught me squarely on the thigh and it really (really!) hurt. Desks are all alike, they are guilty as hell, and they deserve everything they get! I'm taking this to the desk forum to see if I can rustle up a desk posse.


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    #347
    DavyD_83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    I would have said I at least don't go right on red. But I've realised this week that I regularly go right on 3 reds on my way home from work; as well as 2 let's and straight through a crossroad(if 4green men).
    In each case, the road that has green has emptied and/or there is a pedestrian crossing with green man and no pedestrians.
    I don't think I cause any genuine risk doing this, but also know I'm taking the piss. There is a definite need for the rotr to be reviewed and to apply modified rules to cyclists. My approach shouldn't be within the rules, but there is a mid point which makes sense. If the rules meet me halfway, maybe I'd respect them more as a whole.
    So yeh, I'm party of the problem really.


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    #348
    PlaneSpeeking
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,106 ✭✭✭PlaneSpeeking


    doozerie wrote: »
    In which case: Desk harm is always the solution.

    I recall back in the 80's when a school desk caught me squarely on the thigh and it really (really!) hurt. Desks are all alike, they are guilty as hell, and they deserve everything they get! I'm taking this to the desk forum to see if I can rustle up a desk posse.

    Sign me up - those ones that open broke my finger!!

    Granted the bully attached bears SOME blame lol!!!


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    #349
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,349 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    guys, you know the law is completely silent on going through a red if you're pulling a wheelie?


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    #350
    Grassey
    Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    The Sagan defence as its known in the four courts


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    #351
    DavyD_83
    Registered Users Posts: 1,991 ✭✭✭DavyD_83


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    guys, you know the law is completely silent on going through a red if you're pulling a wheelie?

    Presumably unicycle laws would apply


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    #352
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    DavyD_83 wrote: »
    Presumably unicycle laws would apply

    I know both you and I cycle but its a bit unfair we have specific laws for us.

    I'll get my coat :pac:


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    #353
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 28,390 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    doozerie wrote: »
    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Because you're breaking the law.

    If fact, you're breaking the law in a manner that results in multiple road deaths each year. Speeding by motorists is one of the top three causes of road deaths. Red light jumping by cyclists isn't.

    Isn't it a tad hypocritical to be jumping up and down about cyclists breaking red lights given that you're breaking the speed limit on every journey?

    So you're basically saying that anyone who breaks the law, even unintentionally, has no say about others who break the law.

    So by your logic anyone who has ever unintentionally exceeded the speed limit while driving (which I'm going to guess is pretty much everyone that drives at some point or other) is as bad as those motorists that routinely and deliberately ignore speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, etc.? And presumably by the same logic jaywalking is breaking the law so anyone who has ever jaywalked is as bad as those motorists too?

    Have you ever broken any rule of the road yourself, because, brace yourself, you're going to have to take a long hard look at yourself since you are telling yourself you are as bad as "motorists that kill". And yet here you are, jumping up and down about me "breaking the speed limit on every journey" ("every journey"? Really? How do you make that out now?) when you are clearly, by your own logic, not entitled to do so.

    Perhaps we should just dissolve society, guilty as we all are of... well... EVERYTHING.
    I don't recall anything in traffic law about the intention being significant.

    If I unintentionally break a red light by not paying enough attention to it, will I escape your ire?


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