Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

5c is actually quite low , they should offer night time rate minimum. That way it would cost nothing to buy back at night.

It would be a sting to get 5c and have to pay 18 c per kwh.

antoinolachtnai

air wrote: »

A cent a kWh is very significant in terms of a FIT of 5c!!!

Also VAT is relevant, as the supplier is a commercial operator and can offset the VAT paid.

The advertised FIT rate is likely to be inclusive of VAT - as is the FIT on the existing (closed 9c/kWh) scheme.

A FIT of 5c/kWh Inc VAT only costs the supplier 4.4c/kWh in real terms.
Subtract the 1c/kWh saving on TUOS and it's below your claimed daytime average wholesale rate of 3.5c/kWh

I didn't mention DUOS because it's unavoidable as you say.

All told I don't see any evidence why a domestic FIT of 5c should not be perfectly commercially viable in the current market.

What we are talking about is really more of an export tariff than a feed-in tariff.

I suppose an ex-VAT tariff of 4.4c/kWh might be possible. But it is probably realistically at the very top of what will be possible.

DUoS and access to market pricing makes a difference because if the daytime DUoS rate falls, then the savings from having the rooftop PV become smaller. This doesn't affect the price, you are quite right, but it does affect the 'base case'.

The VAT is really an open question. In the scheme you describe, the homeowner is essentially charging VAT on the electricity he/she sells. But it is hard to see how this is done legally because the householder is not VAT registered. (There is another VAT arrangement that could be used, the margin scheme, but the administration is more complex. There is a technical reason why the margin scheme cannot be used for electricity, but this could be overcome. Another way to do this is for a VAT registered person to own the panels and rent them, but this brings other VAT problems.)

Do you know what the electric ireland statement says about VAT for residential exports?

A feed-in tariff would fall outside the VAT net certainly. But that isn't really on the cards.

The PV electricity also needs to be forecast and hedged. This is important because the balancing price of electricity can go negative. Hedging costs money too.

There is an administrative and support overhead to all of this.

On the other hand there are some other money benefits (mainly to do with capacity charges) for the supplier that make this more attractive. Though these benefits are likely to get removed in coming years.

I don't mean to rain on the ol' parade, but I am being realistic about what unsubsidised residential PV will actually be worth on net when DUoS changes and when there is loads of commercial PV out there.

air

I think we're in broad agreement then that a FIT of around 5c could be implemented either on a cost neutral basis or profitably at present.
I don't think there's much point in trying to speculate too far into the future, the FIT could be reviewed regularly. DUOS could go up as easily as down if PV became very pervasive increasing daytime consumption and production.

There is no explanation of VAT treatment on the EI paperwork. The total amount of kWh export in the previous year is multiplied by .09 and the sum is credited to the customer account balance at the beginning of the following year.

Consumption and standing charges including VAT are subtracted from it until it is exhausted.

I agree VAT would need to be clarified from a consumer point of view but presumably EI have done this years ago.

unkel

air wrote: »

I think we're in broad agreement then that a FIT of around 5c could be implemented either on a cost neutral basis or profitably at present.

That's all we need. And that's all we deserve. We don't need the tax payer to subsidise people with PV. That said, we will need ever increasing penalties for all use of fossil fuels.

5 c is too low, it wouldn't make me change now in the morning if I got 5 c and had to pay 17 C peak......

Convince me otherwise......lol

unkel

Deleted User wrote: »

5 c is too low, it wouldn't make me change now in the morning if I got 5 c and had to pay 17 C peak......

Convince me otherwise......lol

Do your other investments return >10% after tax?

Mine don't, apart from my pension.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Do your other investments return >10% after tax?

Mine don't, apart from my pension.

5 c is not a great incentive, better than nothing but not great especially at the cost to buy.

antoinolachtnai

air wrote: »

I think we're in broad agreement then that a FIT of around 5c could be implemented either on a cost neutral basis or profitably at present.
I don't think there's much point in trying to speculate too far into the future, the FIT could be reviewed regularly. DUOS could go up as easily as down if PV became very pervasive increasing daytime consumption and production.

There is no explanation of VAT treatment on the EI paperwork. The total amount of kWh export in the previous year is multiplied by .09 and the sum is credited to the customer account balance at the beginning of the following year.

Consumption and standing charges including VAT are subtracted from it until it is exhausted.

I agree VAT would need to be clarified from a consumer point of view but presumably EI have done this years ago.

Then the 9c is 9c excluding VAT.

Daytime off peak DUoS is not going to go up. It will go down bringing it into proportion with cost. Peak DUoS will certainly go up. There is no consumption driver that would make daytime consumption go up in the next five years. Maybe something would come up beyond that, but it is hard to see.

If punters don’t have certainty about the FIT it will mean the business case will be very weak, at least for non-enthusiasts.

Whatever FIT they offer they need to guarantee it for 10 years or more.

air

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Then the 9c is 9c excluding VAT.

I don't follow your logic to be honest, but as with all your other points you are not providing any argument to support your position. Again it's getting OT.

The credit is applied against the bill after vat, not before.
If it was ex VAT it would be worth 10.22c/kWh against the total bill. It is not.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

daytime off peak DUoS is not going to go up. It will go down bringing it into proportion with cost. Peak DUoS will certainly go up.

Your crystal ball is mighty impressive. Can you elaborate?

The DUOS charges are surely paid by the consumer of the export in any case which makes them moot for the purposes of this discussion.

Are they are paid at export and again import for generation direct into distribution?
I have no idea but that sounds like double charging to me if it is the case.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is no consumption driver that would make daytime consumption go up in the next five years. Maybe something would come up beyond that, but it is hard to see.

I'm not so sure. Data centres are showing huge growth and are 24/7. Dynamic consumer pricing (with the imminent smart meter rollout) has potential to radically alter consumption patterns. Increased adoption of EVs and PV, not to mention increased carbon pricing can also have an effect. If people are driving EVs to work and charging them during the day that can provide consumption to be met by domestic PV export.

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If punters don’t have certainty about the FIT it will mean the business case will be very weak, at least for non-enthusiasts.

I agree and that certainty could be offered by the government at very low marginal cost by guaranteeing a fixed rate. At the price levels we are discussing here the cost should be negligible, especially at current PV penetration levels.

PV generated daytime electricity should continue to be very competitive vs the alternatives in the foreseeable future. I don't see what other zero carbon sources that are going to be competitive on a calm summers day where wind output is low for example.

gally74

Hello,

So I'm 3 months in,

1.23MWh produced, 1.06 MWh consumed - 86% 4.2 system

We were away a lot during August, so I expect to go 90% plus for the rest of the year.

Overall v happy,

Charlie-Bravo

^ what's your setup and orientation?

wexfordman2

astrofluff wrote: »

^ what's your setup and orientation?

6kw and straight :-)

Charlie-Bravo

Lolz, have you got a battery setup and facing straight south?!

ch750536

Jumping on the back of this. Was heading for a 6k battery system but based on whats happening in the market would it make more sense to go with a 9k non battery system (straight south)?

ch750536

ch750536 wrote: »

Jumping on the back of this. Was heading for a 6k battery system but based on whats happening in the market would it make more sense to go with a 9k non battery system (straight south)?

Why would you got with a 9 Kwp array when you can only send 5.5 Kw to the grid on single phase ?

You'll generate for more than you can use in the brighter months and it will all go to the grid for free, a battery won't be large enough to store all the excess and you'll struggle to fill it in winter.

A hybrid system of wind and solar PV would be better, in my opinion .

reklamos

ch750536 wrote: »

Jumping on the back of this. Was heading for a 6k battery system but based on whats happening in the market would it make more sense to go with a 9k non battery system (straight south)?

That really depends on your usage pattern, power of the whole system and if you have hot water diverter. I have 4.5 system south facing with 7 battery and diverter. In July and August I have exported 27kWh. So it is not a lot and the numbers will be going down from now on. Without diverter, 9kWh battery should be fine.

Battery makes a big cost of the whole system and you will not get bigger SEAI grant(if you looking for one) by getting bigger battery.

I would only get bigger battery, if I can get it cheap. You can always add battery later and hopefully with time prices will come down.

Size the system to your needs, no point dumping energy you wouldn't other wise use, that's a waste .

This is the greatest issue with Solar PV that and the fact you got most energy production in Summer when you could otherwise use it to run a heatpump.

air

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why would you got with a 9 Kwp array when you can only send 5.5 Kw to the grid on single phase ?

It makes perfect sense as the amount of time the array will spend outputting between 5.5 and 9kW will be minimal. Furthermore it's likely to occur at the time of year when you have more PV energy available than you can use anyway.

[Deleted User] wrote: »

A hybrid system of wind and solar PV would be better, in my opinion .

Wind makes very little sense unless you are off grid and even then it's very expensive energy.
It's a hobby in itself keeping them maintained and maintenance is not straightforward.
Furthermore very very few properties have suitable sites for it.

I manage 6 small wind installations and the best one produces 3 times more than the worst despite identical hub heights.

It's great to have opinions but if you're offering advice to other people it's better if you only offer ones which are based on facts or experience IMHO.

air

air wrote: »

It makes perfect sense as the amount of time the array will spend outputting between 5.5 and 9kW will be minimal. Furthermore it's likely to occur at the time of year when you have more PV energy available than you can use anyway.


It's great to have opinions but if you're offering advice to other people it's better if you only offer ones which are based on facts or experience IMHO.

Yeah so you advise people to dump energy then ? that's fantastic advice.

Hey everyone, air says it's better to buy loads of Solar PV to dump it.

Yep , pay money to dump energy, great advice !

air

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah so you advise people to dump energy then ? that's fantastic advice.

Hey everyone, air says it's better to buy loads of Solar PV to dump it.

I'm suggesting that you haven't a bulls notion about, or any experience with small wind energy in Ireland or anywhere else. In light of that fact it might be best if you held off on recommending it.

Yes, economically it can make perfect sense not to chase every last kWh of potential production in a PV system, especially in the current situation where there is no FIT.
Call it dumping if you like.

Even off grid an East / West system is usually more desirable than a Southerly one, despite the fact that you're "dumping" potential units every day.

You've no experience with PV either and yet you've very strong opinions on it.

air

air wrote: »

I'm suggesting that you haven't a bulls notion about, or any experience with small wind energy in Ireland or anywhere else. In light of that fact it might be best if you held off on recommending it.

Yes, economically it can make perfect sense not to chase every last kWh of potential production in a PV system, especially in the current situation where there is no FIT.
Call it dumping if you like.

Even off grid an East / West system is usually more desirable than a Southerly one, despite the fact that you're "dumping" potential units every day.

You've no experience with PV either and yet you've very strong opinions on it.

Yeah I do have a strong opinion on it, it's great even in Ireland but without a FIT it's not much good to most people unless they run a heat pump in Summer lol.

Sorry boss, can't come to work tomorrow, the weather forecast says it's to be sunny so I have to stay at home to manage the energy consumption of the house so I can use all the solar I paid for lol

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah I do have a strong opinion on it, it's great even in Ireland but without a FIT it's not much good to most people unless they run a heat pump in Summer lol.

Sorry boss, can't come to work tomorrow, the weather forecast says it's to be sunny so I have to stay at home to manage the energy consumption of the house so I can use all the solar I paid for lol

You dont size a PV system to use it all. You size it to use as much of it as you can (limited to roof space and budget) across the year and that will also mean wasting some of it to the grid.

For instance, it might make sense to put in a 9kWp system and waste more during the summer but that 9kWp is then providing you with more energy in the winter when a smaller system would be barely powering up the inverter.... its a balancing act.

And then further complicated by using an east-west orientation so the headline kWp figure is only part of the equation.

air

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah I do have a strong opinion on it, it's great even in Ireland but without a FIT it's not much good to most people unless they run a heat pump in Summer lol.

Sorry boss, can't come to work tomorrow, the weather forecast says it's to be sunny so I have to stay at home to manage the energy consumption of the house so I can use all the solar I paid for lol

I never suggested over sizing an array for everyone, I'm just making the point that it can make sense for some applications.


The heat pump is a perfect example, well done.

A 9kW array would produce over 1kW for a good number of hours in Autumn and Spring that could be used to run a small ASHP and provide some effective zero carbon space heating for example.
I'm planning to do just that myself soon for my home office.

I admire your self confidence pontificating vociferously on subjects with which you have little or no understanding of.

air

air wrote: »

I never suggested over sizing an array for everyone, I'm just making the point that it can make sense for some applications.


The heat pump is a perfect example, well done.

A 9kW array would produce over 1kW for a good number of hours in Autumn and Spring that could be used to run a small ASHP and provide some effective zero carbon space heating for example.
I'm planning to do just that myself soon for my home office.

I admire your self confidence pontificating vociferously on subjects with which you have little or no understanding of.

Ok well if you want to give free energy away then that's up to you or if you want to go spending more money just to use that otherwise dumped energy go ahead but don't go advising others to spend big bucks to dump energy or go spend thousands on a heat pump.

9 Kwh. that would be a lot of unused energy in Summer. Without a FIT.

And it's great we have wise people to tell fools like me to go spending thousands to save some Kwh but dump the rest.

air

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok well if you want to give free energy away then that's up to you or if you want to go spending more money just to use that otherwise dumped energy go ahead but don't go advising others to spend big bucks to dump energy or go spend thousands on a heat pump.

9 Kwh. that would be a lot of unused energy in Summer. Without a FIT.

And it's great we have wise people to tell fools like me to go spending thousands to save some Kwh but dump the rest.

It's 9kW not 9kWh.
You could have a look at the difference between power and energy as starting point in your renewables education.

I never advised anyone to do anything, unlike yourself.

I merely provided some reasoned argument why an oversized array might make sense for some people.

I'm not in the business of splashing around one size fits all advice from a position of ignorance on the particular person's priorities.

air

air wrote: »

It's 9kW not 9kWh.
You could have a look at the difference between power and energy as starting point in your renewables education.

I never advised anyone to do anything, unlike yourself.

I merely provided some reasoned argument why an oversized array might make sense for some people.

I'm not in the business of splashing around one size fits all advice from a position of ignorance on the particular person's priorities.

Yeah yeah I know the difference between Kw and Kwh I talk a lot about Kwh in the EV section of Boards , thanks all the same for trying to educate me.

Try insult me more , I love it, you keep showing how obnoxious a person you are. So keep showing it.

air

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yeah yeah I know the difference between Kw and Kwh I talk a lot about Kwh in the EV section of Boards , thanks all the same for trying to educate me.

Try insult me more , I love it, you keep showing how obnoxious a person you are. So keep showing it.

I haven't insulted you once, but I appreciate that English may not be your first language.

You've suggested domestic micro wind which is basically ridiculous for 99.9% of residential properties in the country. Even then is unlikely to provide a payback anything like PV, with or without subsidy. It's also relatively high maintenance. As far as I can tell you have no direct or indirect knowledge about it.

You have no experience with PV or really any feel for how it operates in terms of production and consumption and yet you're advising people on what they should or shouldn't do with no argument to support your position.

In conclusion I don't think you are adding anything useful to the thread.

reklamos

I can see this happening in ROI soon the way some PV installers pushing their products and we don't have FIT yet. This could do a lot of damage to PV uptake
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-49566130

KCross

KCross wrote: »

You dont size a PV system to use it all. You size it to use as much of it as you can (limited to roof space and budget) across the year and that will also mean wasting some of it to the grid.

For instance, it might make sense to put in a 9kWp system and waste more during the summer but that 9kWp is then providing you with more energy in the winter when a smaller system would be barely powering up the inverter.... its a balancing act.

And then further complicated by using an east-west orientation so the headline kWp figure is only part of the equation.

The excess of a 9 Kwp System in Summer would be much more than I could use but It could run dishwasher and washing machine etc during the day when she insists to use it sometimes instead of the night, the dryer etc but the dryer actually uses very little as it's got a heat pump. It would run the well pump, septic tank pump and for cooking.

Though in reality I might be better off to get a battery and charge it up on night rate and use that during the day.

When I have a 60+ Kwh EV I would very much like to be able to use the work electricity to power the house, we're some time away yet from having a CCS V2G system.

We're getting someone out to access the house for a water sourced heat pump because the heating needs replacing and I want to move from oil, the 60 Kwh in the EV would help a lot to power it and a COP of around 7 is very attractive what it turns out to be in my house which isn't an A rated air tight house would be interesting to find out but a FIT system where all the excess goes to the grid and bought back in the colder months would be great so I wouldn't be as concerned about the air tightness and insulation of the house.

In reality I could probably fit 20 Kwp , roof and garden but single phase is the limitation.