Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

DrPhilG

KCross wrote: »

Better find the keys for the manual override on the gates so!

I did find them eventually, still couldn't open the gates. Not sure if it was just siezed shut after 7 years or if I needed to be more ignorant with the pressure.

unkel

Installer could very well be right in saying the Zappi is fine with the battery. Anyway it's his problem to make it work if there are issues. The only snake oil I smell here is the upselling of the more expensive panels. It will add years to your pay back period and the only difference is that the installer gets a much nicer margin

A battery is going to run out in the evening so would not have sorted your issue. Unless you get a bigger battery. Not necessarily a €7000 power wall though. An alternative solution is to get the battery installed (preferably as cheaply as possible, I would go 2.4kWh), sell the battery. Then get your hands on second hand lead acid. For what the 2.4kWh lithium will sell for you could buy about 20kWh lead acid. That should see you through the night on most nights, and not only that, you can charge it up with night rate electricity so you always have some juice left. And a powercut will never again affect you. Don't charge your car up from the battery though. And I would go for 6kwp instead of 4kwp if you have the space.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Installer could very well be right in saying the Zappi is fine with the battery. Anyway it's his problem to make it work if there are issues. The only snake oil I smell here is the upselling of the more expensive panels. It will add years to your pay back period and the only difference is that the installer gets a much nicer margin

A battery is going to run out in the evening so would not have sorted your issue. Unless you get a bigger battery. Not necessarily a €7000 power wall though. An alternative solution is to get the battery installed (preferably as cheaply as possible, I would go 2.4kWh), sell the battery. Then get your hands on second hand lead acid. For what the 2.4kWh lithium will sell for you could buy about 20kWh lead acid. That should see you through the night on most nights, and not only that, you can charge it up with night rate electricity so you always have some juice left. And a powercut will never again affect you. Don't charge your car up from the battery though. And I would go for 6kwp instead of 4kwp if you have the space.

But won't the battery charge up on night rate electricity, so the most filled it would be is first thing in the morning?

I can just about fit 4kw on the south facing garage roof. Not sure there would be much benefit adding more on N, E, W facing

Water John

Would it be empty again by 11/12 o'clock for PV?

wexfordman2

Depend in the time of year. During summer months, charge form Pv, with no night time charging, as the days get shorter, night time charging would be worth using.

unkel

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Depend in the time of year. During summer months, charge form Pv, with no night time charging, as the days get shorter, night time charging would be worth using.

+1

And in Phil's case a little bit of night time charging in summer to make sure he has some base power when the grid gets down.

DrPhilG wrote: »

I can just about fit 4kw on the south facing garage roof. Not sure there would be much benefit adding more on N, E, W facing

Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed. And W facing would still give you a lot of direct drive from PV in the early evening that would have otherwise come out of your battery.

Out of interest, what was your quote for above system with the cheaper panels?

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed. And W facing would still give you a lot of direct drive from PV in the early evening that would have otherwise come out of your battery.

Out of interest, what was your quote for above system with the cheaper panels?

Problem is the garage has the south and north faces. Would have to go to the house for west facing. Wouldn't that be an issue, 2 separate installations on 2 separate buildings?

Can't honestly remember how much the cheaper panel quote was, I'll have to dig through some emails.

Edit - €6k with Peimar panels.

wexfordman2

I remember getting a quite fir a 4kwp system using those glass glass panels as well, and the pitch being that they had less degradation.

I think the cost of those panels compared to ordinary ones was about 1500 ?

I ended up going to a different provider with a 6kwp system, which cost about 1k extra over the 4kwp system. My justification was, more production, and as well as that, 6kwp degradation v 4kwp degradation over 30 years, I would still have more capacity than the 4kwp glass glass system.

Gumbo

pale rider wrote: »

I've done my math based on my usage cost from bills versus no grid use and monitoring the meter, I added vat/carbon tax to unit costs not purchased to arrive at my average daily savings, weather has been good for all but one or two days since install.

Can you post some figures. I think your savings are incorrect.
Even a 10 kWh battery only costs €1.80 to fill at full day rate and that would be more that what you’d use.

unkel

DrPhilG wrote: »

Problem is the garage has the south and north faces. Would have to go to the house for west facing. Wouldn't that be an issue, 2 separate installations on 2 separate buildings?

No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.

DrPhilG wrote: »

Edit - €6k with Peimar panels.

Including the Zappi and immersion diverter I presume? That's probably one of the better quotes in here if my memory serves me well.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.



Including the Zappi and immersion diverter I presume? That's probably one of the better quotes in here if my memory serves me well.

That Solarwatt panels €8100 quote was including the Zappi (new model) install, but not minus the charger grant. Installer was claiming the solar grant back directly, but I had to do the Zappi one myself.

So net cost for 4kw + 4.8kwh + Zappi 2 +Eddi & Harvi is €7.5k.

Or just under €5.5k with the Peimar panels.

Regarding buildings, the house with the E/W faces is about 25m from the garage with the N/S.

But to add panels on the house, I would need to run overhead cables to the garage to link into the main system? That's not an option.

air

unkel wrote: »

Absolutely much benefit as the extra cost of 2kwp is very low, about a grand installed.

I'm very interested to see your figures on this claim as I've seen you post similar before.

Taking prices from Solartricity which to my knowledge is the cheapest supplier in Ireland that actually publishes prices:

Amerisolar 300W - Black € 102.50 X 7 = €717.50
K2 Solid rail ultralight 32 2.1m € 7.91 X 8 = €63.28
K2 End Clamp €2.09 X 4 = €8.36
K2 Mid Clamp €2.09 X 12 = €25.08
K2 Roof Fastner for flat tile, 15cm h33 m10 A2 K1000074 € 7.67 X 16 = €122.72
K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000042 € 0.30 X 16 = €4.80
K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000041 € 0.30 = €4.80
K2 Self Drilling Wood screw K1000642 € 0.21 X 32 = €6.72

PC sum for PV cable, roof entry flashing, MC4 connectors, trunking, DC & AC Isolators, mounting board, cable clips, sealants, consumables = €100

Total cost €1053.26 + VAT @23% = €1295.51

This assumes the most straightforward possible installation (single row) on a tiled roof. It excludes the additional cost of a larger inverter, scaffolding and anything other than short, very straightforward cable runs, access and no allowances for any additionals.

Obviously zero allowance for delivery to the customer site and zero allowance for labour.

I'm really looking forward to you sharing details on the suppliers that can supply the above or equivalent at a price point that would allow for it to be supplied and professionally installed at €1000 Inc VAT.

I would expect the marginal cost of the additional installation works to cost a minimum of €400 inc VAT assuming a crew is already on site for the rest of the installation, which leaves €600 for the supply and delivery of the hardware.

Feel free to PM me supplier details if the charter won't allow you to share them on thread.
I'm very keen to source panels & parts from your supplier at your kind of prices!

thos

unkel wrote: »

No problem at all. Unless the buildings are very far apart the losses through the cables will be small. My own setup is 5 panels on high south facing roof, 5 panels on south facing kitchen extension and 3 panels on west facing shed.

Out of interest is that all through same inverter? Are the West & South panels on a shared string or separate?

unkel

No you're right, air. I wasn't thinking of the implications of having the install on a second roof elsewhere (as would be the case for Phil). My mistake.

I was thinking of doing a 6kwp install instead of a 4kwp install on the same roof as part of the same array. Would take not much more than an hour extra to install the 6-7 panels and you wouldn't need any extra scaffolding / isolators / etc. And a 5kwp hybrid inverter is no more expensive than a 4kwp inverter the last time I looked. And delivery won't cost any more for a 6kwp than for a 4kwp system and won't take up any more time. And I was presuming a standard pantile roof. Slate is a lot more expensive and time consuming to install on. You won't need any more cable / MC4 connectors to install that either.

Those prices you quote are for the public. Installers get a serious discount on that. And they can reclaim the VAT, and often charge only 13.5% VAT for an install including materials and labour. In other words if you are getting a quote from a SEAI installer and they quote you a figure of say €7k for a 4kwp install, I'd say there's a fair chance that if you offer €8k for a 6kwp system (as part of the same array) that they will accept

This bit:

Amerisolar 300W - Black € 102.50 X 7 = €717.50
K2 Solid rail ultralight 32 2.1m € 7.91 X 8 = €63.28
K2 End Clamp €2.09 X 4 = €8.36
K2 Mid Clamp €2.09 X 12 = €25.08
K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000042 € 0.30 X 16 = €4.80
K2 T-Bolt M10x30 A2 K1000041 € 0.30 = €4.80

At installers cost comes to about €790 including 13.5% VAT the installer would charge you. And we're talking 2.1kwp here. A 1.8kwp 6 panel system would be a good bit cheaper

air

Fair enough, I still think you're dreaming if you think someone (or even a pair) can install 6-7 (additional) panels on a domestic roof in an hour.
Realistically it's going to take at least 10 minutes just to haul the panels up there safely.
Removing and reinstating tiles, possibly notching for clearance underneath, drilling for and installing fixings, fixing and aligning rails, pre fix clips, haul and place panels, secure and tighten clips, install earthing links, etc.
Inevitably there will be a broken tile or two to deal with as well.

I've installed plenty of panels on several different tiled roofs but I think I must be doing something wrong since it's always taken me a hell of a lot longer than 10 minutes a panel!

Also I'm pretty confident that you're vastly overestimating the margins on the panels and other hardware, Solartricity are very competitive with even large UK wholesalers to the best of my knowledge.

I have no idea if it's permissable to charge 13.5% on the materials or not as I'm not in the business.

I'm all for people getting a great deal but I think it's important that expectations are realistic as well, installers need to cover costs at the very least.

unkel

air wrote: »

Also I'm pretty confident that you're vastly overestimating the margins on the panels and other hardware

Nope. The discounts are available for the trade. Trust me on that one

air wrote: »

I have no idea if it's permissable to charge 13.5% on the materials or not as I'm not in the business.

That depends on what value of the install is materials and what value is labour. It's the two thirds rule. If the ex-VAT price of the parts is less than two thirds of the total ex-VAT bill, the installer is allowed to just charge 13.5% on the whole bill. In practice that is what most installers charge no matter what the percentage is, unless it is very obvious that materials are like 90% of the total cost.

air wrote: »

I'm all for people getting a great deal but I think it's important that expectations are realistic as well

Indeed. Personally I tend to get very good deals on parts, but I work hard for those deals. Might look at eBay for months on end for something. I don't just pick a supplier and order the parts. As for installers - deals can be made. Don't just accept a quote you get and pay it. Negotiate!

air

unkel wrote: »

Nope. The discounts are available for the trade. Trust me on that one

I don't think it's very likely that there are major margins to be honest, I've dealt with a lot of people in the industry across Ireland, the UK & Germany and have a fairly good handle on manufacturer pricing levels.

unkel wrote: »

That depends on what value of the install is materials and what value is labour. It's the two thirds rule. If the ex-VAT price of the parts is less than two thirds of the total ex-VAT bill, the installer is allowed to just charge 13.5% on the whole bill. In practice that is what most installers charge no matter what the percentage is, unless it is very obvious that materials are like 90% of the total cost.

Fair enough.

unkel wrote: »

Indeed. Personally I tend to get very good deals on parts, but I work hard for those deals.

As have I in the past, but scraping deals on odd quantities here and there from eBay etc is of no relevance to consumers on this thread.
They are looking to deal with suppliers that need to deliver a professional product in quantity on demand.
This means the goods have to be sourced at normal wholesale rates.

unkel

air wrote: »

I don't think it's very likely that there are major margins to be honest, I've dealt with a lot of people in the industry across Ireland, the UK & Germany and have a fairly good handle on manufacturer pricing levels.

I have no idea of manufacturer pricing levels or margins for wholesalers. But I do know that on prices listed on websites from wholesalers, these prices are for the public. There is a substantial discount available to the trade. You will have to take my word on that. If you don't want to, so be it

pale rider

kceire wrote: »

Can you post some figures. I think your savings are incorrect.
Even a 10 kWh battery only costs €1.80 to fill at full day rate and that would be more that what you’d use.

I clarified this on the thread already, correct figure is around €3 a day on good to very good days.

Shefwedfan

This came up on Facebook feed

Reduce your annual electricity/energy bills by up to 80% with a Gilroys.ie PV solar system and battery storage 4KWp PVs and 4.5KW battery storage for €11,633 including VAT and before €3,800 SEAI grant.The total cost to the client after SEAI grant is €7,833.75 Fully supplied installed and commissioned.

For more info message us or Email us at info@gilroys.ie or call us on 0214345289/ 0667115920

bunderoon

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This came up on Facebook feed

Reduce your annual electricity/energy bills by up to 80% with a Gilroys.ie PV solar system and battery storage 4KWp PVs and 4.5KW battery storage for €11,633 including VAT and before €3,800 SEAI grant.The total cost to the client after SEAI grant is €7,833.75 Fully supplied installed and commissioned.

For more info message us or Email us at info@gilroys.ie or call us on 0214345289/ 0667115920

From what people say is Ireland cheapest online Solar store, the same equiv gear would cost ~5,700 ext VAT.

€5,700 @ 13.5% = €770 -> €6470 total
or
€5700 @ 23% = €1311 -> €7011 total.

So at worst case, they charge about €5,160 for labour
You'd get registered spark to wire a whole semi-d for that (labour) for that money..

BrendanD

bunderoon wrote: »

From what people say is Ireland cheapest online Solar store, the same equiv gear would cost ~5,700 ext VAT.

€5,700 @ 13.5% = €770 -> €6470 total
or
€5700 @ 23% = €1311 -> €7011 total.

So at worst case, they charge about €5,160 for labour
You'd get registered spark to wire a whole semi-d for that (labour) for that money..

Just on that has anyone gone with buying all their own equipment and arranging an install themselves ? , am looking at the moment to import my own panels and batteries , i can get 20, 290 w panels for $1450

air

Freight cost is the main issue, even from the UK a batch of panels will be charged as 2 pallets and you're looking at €200+ for delivery to Ireland.
Since you've posted a price in dollars I suspect you're looking at delivery from further afield which is not likely to be economically viable for a small quantity. You'll also have to factor VAT into your calculations which will be charged on the cost of the goods + delivery if coming from outside the EU.

KCross

Shefwedfan wrote: »

This came up on Facebook feed

Reduce your annual electricity/energy bills by up to 80% with a Gilroys.ie PV solar system and battery storage 4KWp PVs and 4.5KW battery storage for €11,633 including VAT and before €3,800 SEAI grant.The total cost to the client after SEAI grant is €7,833.75 Fully supplied installed and commissioned.

For more info message us or Email us at info@gilroys.ie or call us on 0214345289/ 0667115920

Got a quote from them for 3.6kWp (no battery) for €6k after grant. Not a good price!

Stefs_42

first megawat generated from my 3.6 kwp system within less than 3 months of use. quite happy so far

unkel

My 3.8kwp system is in 6 months now and I've already gone well over 2MWh

Most of this still going to the grid for free though. I don't really mind. But will be building my battery soon.

Stefs_42

so here is the truth about payback on PVs!

My 3.6 kwp system with 3.5kw battery cost me 6300 euro (after grants)
Got my first bill on 2 months after using PVs.
Pre-solar bi-monthly usage 789 units (bill = 154 euro)
With PV - 217 units (bill = 69 euro) and this during bright summer months,
so my average bi-monthly savings during summer were 85 euro!

Consider that days would be shorter soon, hence less sunlight that would leave us with lets say only 4 productive months for PVs, therefore savings of 170 e.
For winter time and duller days I would estimate bi-monthly savings of only 50 euro. which leaves us with 4*50=200 e

So my savings for the year would be 370 euro!

Now easy enough to estimate my payback for the PV system, give or take 17 years and that not taking into consideration any parts degradation!

Coltrane

Stefs_42 wrote: »

so here is the truth about payback on PVs!

My 3.6 kwp system with 3.5kw battery cost me 6300 euro (after grants)
Got my first bill on 2 months after using PVs.
Pre-solar bi-monthly usage 789 units (bill = 154 euro)
With PV - 217 units (bill = 69 euro) and this during bright summer months,
so my average bi-monthly savings during summer were 85 euro!

Consider that days would be shorter soon, hence less sunlight that would leave us with lets say only 4 productive months for PVs, therefore savings of 170 e.
For winter time and duller days I would estimate bi-monthly savings of only 50 euro. which leaves us with 4*50=200 e

So my savings for the year would be 370 euro!

Now easy enough to estimate my payback for the PV system, give or take 17 years and that not taking into consideration any parts degradation!

That would be relatively fast payback, especially for a system incorporating a battery!

If your setup contributes to reducing climate change, that will have a financial value (to you and all of us) too.

I fear that many of us haven’t grasped that dealing with climate change is going to cost a great deal of money - and the scientists clearly state that the longer we wait, the more it’s likely to cost.

So your payback to yourself may be quite a bit faster than 17 years, allowing for parts-degradation, when saved environmental clean-up costs are factored. Unless the environmental footprint of fabricating/delivering/safely disposing of the kit exceeds the saved costs...

Evd-Burner

Stefs_42 wrote: »

so here is the truth about payback on PVs!

My 3.6 kwp system with 3.5kw battery cost me 6300 euro (after grants)
Got my first bill on 2 months after using PVs.
Pre-solar bi-monthly usage 789 units (bill = 154 euro)
With PV - 217 units (bill = 69 euro) and this during bright summer months,
so my average bi-monthly savings during summer were 85 euro!

Consider that days would be shorter soon, hence less sunlight that would leave us with lets say only 4 productive months for PVs, therefore savings of 170 e.
For winter time and duller days I would estimate bi-monthly savings of only 50 euro. which leaves us with 4*50=200 e

So my savings for the year would be 370 euro!

Now easy enough to estimate my payback for the PV system, give or take 17 years and that not taking into consideration any parts degradation!

When I eventually have solar I was thinking of setting the battery to charge at night rate and discharge at day rate. You could potentially save another 50 a year :P

Alkers

Stefs_42 wrote: »

So my savings for the year would be 370 euro!

Now easy enough to estimate my payback for the PV system, give or take 17 years and that not taking into consideration any parts degradation!

17 years is about 5% return on investment which compares favorably to a bank at least but you obviously can't easily recoup the amount you've invested and I doubt the value increase to your house would be the same as you spent?

Also, we should consider that energy costs are likely to rise in the near to medium future and the introduction of a FIT may swing things further in your favour also.

Have you switched to a night rate meter also?