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Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    KCross wrote: »
    This is flawed logic guys.

    Using your logic you might as well go for 5kWp so, draw another €700 grant and they will write you a cheque for the battery! :)
    I know you can't get a grant over 4kWp but you get my point?

    You can't allocate the panel grant to the battery to justify buying the battery because it might leave you with a "free" battery but then you have very expensive panels! You don't get both!

    There is no magic here. You simply have to get an equivalent competitive quote for the same system without a battery and the difference is what the battery is costing you. Simple. Any other manipulation of the grant figures is just fooling yourself.

    If the difference in cost is anything above €1500 between the two quotes you are looking at a very long payback time for your battery. I gave figures back in post 89. Did I get any of those figures wrong?


    Also, simply upping your install to 4.1kWp to justify the battery (as opposed to being suitable for your house) is flawed too because you will simply be pumping more to the grid and shelling out thousands extra for it. A 4.1kWp system will have masses of excess during the day even with the battery.


    You are too focussed on maximising the grant money and not enough on the payback imo, which is exactly what the govt want actually and why they configured the grant the way they did.

    You’ll find that at no point did I suggest getting a larger array that is suitable for one’s requirements. However, if an array in excess of 2kw is what is suitable for one’s requirements then the additional solar grant along with the battery grant should be a consideration.

    It’s clear that we both have different points of view on this so I feel we should just let this lie.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    You’ll find that at no point did I suggest getting a larger array that is suitable for one’s requirements. However, if an array in excess of 2kw is what is suitable for one’s requirements then the additional solar grant along with the battery grant should be a consideration.

    Of course you should consider it. You made some additional points around charging the battery on night rate and the use of it during outages that are valid. Finances aren't the only consideration but it is pretty important! :)

    Im just making the point that the figures didnt add up when I look at it purely from a financial perspective.

    If you think it does add up I'd like to see the fine detail of the figures. It would help everyone here to see that. I've done my own calculations and the batteries came up well short of being viable. I could be missing something as Im not an expert either. I'm the same as everyone else on here. So please share how it makes sense financially.

    I believe the only way to do that is to get a quote with and without the batteries and have realistic expectations on what you can get from it in relation to displacing day rate electricity.

    I'm not trying to p*ss you off here gunner, just trying to work through the facts and figures like everyone else and make an informed decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    KCross wrote: »
    Of course you should consider it. You made some additional points around charging the battery on night rate and the use of it during outages that are valid. Finances aren't the only consideration but it is pretty important! :)

    Im just making the point that the figures didnt add up when I look at it purely from a financial perspective.

    If you think it does add up I'd like to see the fine detail of the figures. It would help everyone here to see that. I've done my own calculations and the batteries came up well short of being viable. I could be missing something as Im not an expert either. I'm the same as everyone else on here. So please share how it makes sense financially.

    I believe the only way to do that is to get a quote with and without the batteries and have realistic expectations on what you can get from it in relation to displacing day rate electricity.

    I'm not trying to p*ss you off here gunner, just trying to work through the facts and figures like everyone else and make an informed decision.

    You’re not p*ssing me off at all. You made valid points regarding the ROI of any battery. Finance should be the primary consideration however some such as I may have other considerations and different priorities than others. It’s an individual decision based on individual household needs and desires. I just feel that we both have put forward our views on this and at this stage we are just rehashing the same points.

    I hope to get more detailed information and prices from the installers when they visit the house. I’ll post these when I get them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    What crossed my mind in relation to this is could the SEAI ask for verification of planning compliance prior to final approval of a grant application? If none is forthcoming could they refuse to pay? :confused:

    Generally they don’t ask or get involved in planning compliance issues.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    If SEI had lobbied successfully for the removal of the non sensical planning restriction (which would bring us in line with the UK and elsewhere) it would have been of far more use than this grant scheme.
    But administering the scheme creates work for pen pushers in SEI, as does processing farcical planning applications in county council's - along with their 6 printed copies of the drawings and whatnot.
    Our public service exists to look after itself and justify its own existence in very many areas.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,388 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    I think your own logic is flawed Kcross :p
    KCross wrote: »
    A 4.1kWp system will have masses of excess during the day even with the battery.

    True. At the moment. But with any investment, you need to look at the lifespan of the investment. Yes you might waste a few years of overproduction to the grid. You know I'm no fan of immersion diverters. But if you have a 4kwp system, they do begin to make sense. And what makes even more sense is to charge your EV. I know that is only worth 7c/kWh as you could charge your car at night, but it is like getting a 7c FIT. And then there is all this talk about a current utility company already paying a 6c FIT. And it is of course possible the state will implement a FIT to encourage the accelerated move to higher renewables. The longer view is that if you have a 40kWh home attached battery in say 5 years time, you won't have to pay any electricity at the higher rate anymore. In fact some people would no longer need to buy any electricity for say 250-300 days of the year :cool:
    KCross wrote: »
    Also, simply upping your install to 4.1kWp to justify the battery (as opposed to being suitable for your house) is flawed too because you will simply be pumping more to the grid

    But it makes sense now to benefit from the very generous €3,800 subsidy while still keeping your own spend to a minimum. This will to a large extend future proof your system, you'll only need to add batteries at some point, an easy job


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    What are the thoughts on running a cable in the air? So my sheds are 5m at most from the house, running a cable in the ground would be very inconvenient and difficult due to the set up. I would potentially need to run cable underground for 20m for least disruption

    If I could run a cable direct from the sheds to the roof of the house and into the attic space it would be a lot easier and cheaper. I talked to a friend who said this would be no issue with building regs but I am unsure. Don't want it to come back and bite me on ass......


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭serox_21


    Why install this systems with a company when you can buy similar systems at half price and install the panels yourself + a register electrician for electrical connections

    estimates costs:

    6 PV(1.8Kw) system - 1543euro+VAT
    installing panels - 0 as DIY or a couple of hundred if you need help
    electrical connections - 200-300(or less if you do most of the work yourself and have the electrician check it and make final connection to fuse board)

    total up to 2300euro(less than any company offer including grand)


  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭niallers1


    Fair enough if you are handy and ok working at heights. I would think most would not be. Your numbers leave out alot of materials. Mounting system , not sure if you included inverter. Safety switch.

    If you do want the grant the installer has to be on the SEAI approved installers list. If not on list then no grant. On top of having a qualified electrician the installer has to have two additional qualifications. (2 x 4 day courses if I recall correctly )


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    serox_21 wrote: »
    Why install this systems with a company when you can buy similar systems at half price and install the panels yourself + a register electrician for electrical connections

    estimates costs:

    6 PV(1.8Kw) system - 1543euro+VAT
    installing panels - 0 as DIY or a couple of hundred if you need help
    electrical connections - 200-300(or less if you do most of the work yourself and have the electrician check it and make final connection to fuse board)

    total up to 2300euro(less than any company offer including grand)


    Im starting to think that way myself. The registered installers are not cheap by any means.

    They have significant profit margin built into the parts. The labour costs are also significant (€2k for a 4kWp system). Plenty room to hire direct there.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭serox_21


    niallers1 wrote: »
    Fair enough if you are handy and ok working at heights. I would think most would not be. Your numbers leave out alot of materials. Mounting system , not sure if you included inverter. Safety switch.

    If you do want the grant the installer has to be on the SEAI approved installers list. If not on list then no grant. On top of having a qualified electrician the installer has to have two additional qualifications. (2 x 4 day courses if I recall correctly )




    I'm not including any SEAI grands or expect to apply for them.


    The PV system given as example included everything(mounting rack, cables, switches, protections, inverter).


    Mainly it's just a connection to fuse board for the inverter(any register electrician should be able to do it) and some checks to make sure rest of the wiring are according to standards(if you do this yourself)



    I don't think the electrician needs any extra qualification if no grands are required.




    The above proposal was not for average Joe or someone who never changed a socket or light bulb. A competent DIY person could do it with some guidance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 Thebowsie


    niallers1 wrote: »
    2 x 2.4kwh pylontech battery. Decent enough reviews on the battery.

    295 watt Trina black panels
    Vandervalk mounting system.

    I think If You have the battery might not need the eddi. Just flick the switch on the immersion when there is juice in the battery.

    Could you PM the company quoting?
    Thanks


  • Site Banned Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Balanadan


    KCross wrote: »
    Im starting to think that way myself. The registered installers are not cheap by any means.

    They have significant profit margin built into the parts. The labour costs are also significant (€2k for a 4kWp system). Plenty room to hire direct there.

    €2k for labour? Seriously?

    Are the Irish installers just picking numbers?


  • Site Banned Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Balanadan


    KCross wrote: »
    This is flawed logic guys.

    Using your logic you might as well go for 5kWp so, draw another €700 grant and they will write you a cheque for the battery! :)
    I know you can't get a grant over 4kWp but you get my point?

    You can't allocate the panel grant to the battery to justify buying the battery because it might leave you with a "free" battery but then you have very expensive panels! You don't get both!

    There is no magic here. You simply have to get an equivalent competitive quote for the same system without a battery and the difference is what the battery is costing you. Simple. Any other manipulation of the grant figures is just fooling yourself.

    If the difference in cost is anything above €1500 between the two quotes you are looking at a very long payback time for your battery. I gave figures back in post 89. Did I get any of those figures wrong?


    Also, simply upping your install to 4.1kWp to justify the battery (as opposed to being suitable for your house) is flawed too because you will simply be pumping more to the grid and shelling out thousands extra for it. A 4.1kWp system will have masses of excess during the day even with the battery.


    You are too focussed on maximising the grant money and not enough on the payback imo, which is exactly what the govt want actually and why they configured the grant the way they did.

    By the looks of it, the standard of system design, yield calculations, performance estimates, installation quality, etc. of Irish installers is behind where the UK was 10 years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Hi,

    So I am now probably looking at a 4kwp solar.with 5kwh battery. I have been also given a price for an additional 4 panels to bring my system up to 6kwp for an additional €1,250.

    The push for the extra 4 panels was at my instigation (I was asking if I could supplement the 4kw system with a small wind turbine, and he said the max rating allowed for domestic was 6kw).

    My thinking was that if I had a 4kw solar, could I supplement it with a small turbine so I could have night time generation as well (its windy where I am).

    Just looking for some opinions on this, is the extra cost for the solar worth it, even considering I might go EV in a few years ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Hi,

    So I am now probably looking at a 4kwp solar.with 5kwh battery. I have been also given a price for an additional 4 panels to bring my system up to 6kwp for an additional €1,250.

    The push for the extra 4 panels was at my instigation (I was asking if I could supplement the 4kw system with a small wind turbine, and he said the max rating allowed for domestic was 6kw).

    My thinking was that if I had a 4kw solar, could I supplement it with a small turbine so I could have night time generation as well (its windy where I am).

    Just looking for some opinions on this, is the extra cost for the solar worth it, even considering I might go EV in a few years ?

    €1250 for an extra 2kWp is a fair enough price. Does that include labour?

    You mention 4 extra panels. Are you sure? 2kWp extra would suggest it would be more than 4 panels required to go from 4 to 6kWp

    Overall is your question whether you should add the extra panels or hold off on that and add a turbine? I guess it would depend on the cost of the turbine and what its likely to generate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    KCross wrote: »
    €1250 for an extra 2kWp is a fair enough price. Does that include labour?

    You mention 4 extra panels. Are you sure? 2kWp extra would suggest it would be more than 4 panels required to go from 4 to 6kWp

    Overall is your question whether you should add the extra panels or hold off on that and add a turbine? I guess it would depend on the cost of the turbine and what its likely to generate.

    Thanks,

    So the system is actually closer to 4.5kwp, so 4 axtra panels will add about 1.3 kwp, bringing me up to 5.8.

    In suppose the first question is, would the 6kwp be worth it, is will it give me better results.

    Then whether the additional power added is solar or wind, I was thinking wind would possibly.be better as that will generate at night as well. I have no idea of the cost of a small wind turbine to be honest, was just thinking as I already had the inverters etc, the decision for adding a small affordable wind turbine might make more sense than additional solar.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Thanks,

    So the system is actually closer to 4.5kwp, so 4 axtra panels will add about 1.3 kwp, bringing me up to 5.8.

    Seems a bit expensive so for 1.3kWp considering they are already on site and you are giving them thousands already. The 4 panels should be costing them around the €175 mark each and add in the labour and extra brackets etc.... €1250 seems high for that.

    In suppose the first question is, would the 6kwp be worth it, is will it give me better results.

    Tough question to answer with a straight yes or no. It will give better "results" in that it will generate more for you but the question is will you be able to consume it and will it pay for itself.

    Thats going to be different for everyone.... do you use a lot of hot water, how do you heat water today, is someone at home during the day that can turn on appliances, etc.

    Then whether the additional power added is solar or wind, I was thinking wind would possibly.be better as that will generate at night as well. I have no idea of the cost of a small wind turbine to be honest, was just thinking as I already had the inverters etc, the decision for adding a small affordable wind turbine might make more sense than additional solar.

    Its an interesting topic. I suspect any turbines that deliver anything meaningful will be expensive. You cant answer that question until you get a quote and also see if your inverter is compatible with it and Solar at the same time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,388 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    So the system is actually closer to 4.5kwp, so 4 axtra panels will add about 1.3 kwp, bringing me up to 5.8

    Those figures don't make sense. Exactly what wattage panel are they using?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,119 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    Those figures don't make sense. Exactly what wattage panel are they using?

    There are 325W panels so that would add up alright.... just not the price!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    KCross wrote: »
    There are 325W panels so that would add up alright.... just not the price!

    Yep, just checked they are 320 panels (q cell q peak).

    So 14 * 320 panels will give 4.8, and the extra 4 panels will bring it up to just under 5.8

    In what way does the price not add up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,388 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Yep, just checked they are 320 panels (q cell q peak).

    So 14 * 320 panels will give 4.8, and the extra 4 panels will bring it up to just under 5.8

    You're maths are still not the best ;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    unkel wrote: »
    You're maths are still not the best ;)

    Arrgg!!


    14 x 320w panels = 4.48
    4 x 320w panels = 1.28

    So 18 panels is 5.76!

    Sorry, back of fags calculation and in between things.

    So, anyone reckon going the additional 2 panels at 1250 euro is worth it at this stage, bringing me from 4.48kwp to 5.76kwp ?

    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,388 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    So, anyone reckon going the additional 2 panels at 1250 euro is worth it at this stage

    4 panels :p

    Do they bump up the power of the inverter or are they just installing the same one? Which one is it?

    4 extra panels is maybe 1 man hour extra work (50), an extra 100 tops in materials and 4 * 160 for the panels, so worth 790 + VAT


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    unkel wrote: »
    4 panels :p

    Do they bump up the power of the inverter or are they just installing the same one? Which one is it?

    4 extra panels is maybe 1 man hour extra work (50), an extra 100 tops in materials and 4 * 160 for the panels, so worth 790 + VAT

    Thanks again unkel.

    The inverter is a prime hybrid inverter, 5kw, which was the initial one proposed for the 14 panel solution, and they did not mention a need to upgrade for the 18 panel solution.

    I am guessing that inverter is fine for my 14 panel solution, but under specced for the 18 panel ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Ok, how much should it cost for electrician to install 4/8 panels if I buy all the equipment.....just connecting incorrectly and maybe running cables but I can help with that.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,388 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    The inverter is a prime hybrid inverter, 5kw, which was the initial one proposed for the 14 panel solution, and they did not mention a need to upgrade for the 18 panel solution.

    I am guessing that inverter is fine for my 14 panel solution, but under specced for the 18 panel ?

    Well I'm no expert here, but I believe a slightly undersized inverter is generally a good idea, it makes the inverter work more efficiently more of the time.

    I would tell the installer that you know parts prices and he'd do well do get another grand off you for installing the extra 4 panels. So offer him 1000 instead of 1250. He knows that you're right, I doubt he'll refuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,475 ✭✭✭denismc


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Ok, how much should it cost for electrician to install 4/8 panels if I buy all the equipment.....just connecting incorrectly and maybe running cables but I can help with that.....

    Afaik the panels come with connectors that just clip together and then its a case of running cable to the inverter and consumer unit.
    Sparks has to install a RCB and a couple of isolators, my guy did it in under 3 hours!
    So less than a half a days work for the sparks if you can run the cables yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    denismc wrote: »
    Afaik the panels come with connectors that just clip together and then its a case of running cable to the inverter and consumer unit.
    Sparks has to install a RCB and a couple of isolators, my guy did it in under 3 hours!
    So less than a half a days work for the sparks if you can run the cables yourself.


    Yeah plan is to do majority of work myself.....


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,315 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Most electricians I know won’t physicslly fit the panels.
    If a 2 storey house then you have to think of scaffolding, health and safety etc


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