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Domestic solar PV quotes 2018

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  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Yeah all of your post makes perfect sense. And yes I do have a sparks friend :)

    He also installed the upgraded RCBO in my consumer unit after I upgraded my car's EVSE from 16A to 32A. I got the part, he was around anyway, 2 minute job for him and I got him a nice bottle of wine. No way would I go inside the CU myself!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    KCross wrote: »
    The difference in cost between a hybrid inverter and a standard one is not far off €1k!

    Any quotes I've seen for battery supply and install are nowhere near the €1100 inc vat you are quoting so I'd be interested to hear where you are getting that price from. Or is that €1100 when you buy it directly yourself?


    Based on the figures I've calculated the battery install makes no financial sense even with the €1000 grant.

    Batteries are coming down in cost and I think it makes more sense to wait for them to drop further rather than get hung up on the €1000 grant today. Wait long enough(3-5yrs maybe) and you will get better systems saving you more in capital costs than the grant is saving you today.


    Some back of beer mat figures..... lets say, all things being equal, that the cost difference (after grant) between a system with and without a 2.4kWh battery is €1500... whats the ROI on that €1500....

    16c/kWh for day rate electricity so thats just short of 10,000 units being required to break even.... thats ~4000 cycles of the battery which equates to ~11yrs and thats assuming that you get to cycle the battery everyday which won't actually happen in reality for several months of the year so its probably closer to 20yrs in reality..... it just doesn't add up.

    Also bear in mind that the 2.4kWh is probably not all usable and all the systems I've seen have a 10yr warranty guaranteeing 80% capacity so by the time it has paid for itself (15-20yrs) the battery is probably <80%.... it could be cooked!

    Battery costs need to come down before it makes any sense.


    People also need to watch the quotes..... some providers are giving high PV only quotes to make it look like the batteries are worth going for, but the reality is that their PV only quotes are high, not the battery quote being low.

    Get better PV only quotes and save yourself the capital cost of the batteries is my advice.

    Well, it's an interesting comparison, I have two quotes from two different installers


    1) a 3.54kwp solar system with hit water diverter at a cost of 7,500 Inc vat and Grant back if 1400, so cost to me is 6,100

    2) A 4kwp system with a 5kwh battery and hybrid inverter and hot water diverter at a cost of 11k, with 3,800 grant so cost to me is 7,200.

    So the larger of system with a 5kwh battery is costing me 1,100 extra only.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Well, it's an interesting comparison, I have two quotes from two different installers


    1) a 3.54kwp solar system with hit water diverter at a cost of 7,500 Inc vat and Grant back if 1400, so cost to me is 6,100

    2) A 4kwp system with a 5kwh battery and hybrid inverter and hot water diverter at a cost of 11k, with 3,800 grant so cost to me is 7,200.

    So the larger of system with a 5kwh battery is costing me 11,00 extra only.


    The €6100 quote is too high though so that makes the €7200 look better than it is. Have you got a few quotes?

    You should be able to get the 3.54kWp quote closer to €5k.

    And how about try a 2.4kWp quote... that should come in around €3500.

    Keep in mind here that having a larger kWp doesn't necessarily give you anything extra... it will just be going back to the grid!

    There is no free lunch here.... get larger kWp system and give more to the grid or add batteries to reduce that but pay through the nose for the batteries!

    The only set of figures that made any sense for me based on my consumption and the quotes I got were to put in a 2.4kWp system with no batteries and even then the payback was ~12yrs.

    Don't believe any of the ROI figures the sales guys give you. They all assume standard tariff electricity prices (20c+/kWh) and they assume a water diverter thus giving 100% utilisation which is a fudge because water doesn't cost 20c/kWh to heat (gas, oil, heat pumps are all cheaper than that).

    If your motivation is environmental then thats fair enough. You can't quantify that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    KCross wrote: »
    The €6100 quote is too high though so that makes the €7200 look better than it is. Have you got a few quotes?

    You should be able to get the 3.54kWp quote closer to €5k.

    And how about try a 2.4kWp quote... that should come in around €3500.

    Keep in mind here that having a larger kWp doesn't necessarily give you anything extra... it will just be going back to the grid!

    There is no free lunch here.... get larger kWp system and give more to the grid or add batteries to reduce that but pay through the nose for the batteries!

    The only set of figures that made any sense for me based on my consumption and the quotes I got were to put in a 2.4kWp system with no batteries and even then the payback was ~12yrs.

    Don't believe any of the ROI figures the sales guys give you. They all assume standard tariff electricity prices (20c+/kWh) and they assume a water diverter thus giving 100% utilisation which is a fudge because water doesn't cost 20c/kWh to heat (gas, oil, heat pumps are all cheaper than that).

    If your motivation is environmental then thats fair enough. You can't quantify that.

    Thanks,

    I have two other reasons for.considering battery though. First, we use night saver, so should be able to charge battery and use during the day at night rate.

    The other thing, is if I am not borrowing to pay for it, and I had the money for the battery sitting in the bank, would it not be earning more for me as a battery than as a deposit ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    KCross wrote: »
    The only set of figures that made any sense for me based on my consumption and the quotes I got were to put in a 2.4kWp system with no batteries and even then the payback was ~12yrs.

    You have PV, so that was before the subsidies came in? What were you quoted and how was it broken down in material and labour?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Thanks,
    I have two other reasons for.considering battery though. First, we use night saver, so should be able to charge battery and use during the day at night rate.

    Not all battery systems allow you to top up on the AC side. You'll need to clarify that with the quotes you've got.

    Once you confirm it can, you then need to run the numbers and see what the payback is. It will help but not by a huge amount..... it will save you the difference between day and night rate (~8c/kWh) not the full cost of day rates and you will only be able to do it during the winter months as it will be full on its own from the panels during the summer.

    The other thing, is if I am not borrowing to pay for it, and I had the money for the battery sitting in the bank, would it not be earning more for me as a battery than as a deposit ?

    Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how good you are with your "investments".
    I'll let the finance gurus answer that one.

    There is, I suppose, the fact that you will be reducing your monthly net pay outgoings. Im not sure thats a good enough reason to go for it though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    You have PV, so that was before the subsidies came in? What were you quoted and how was it broken down in material and labour?

    Nope, sorry for misleading, I'm talking about quotes I've got since the grant was announced. I'm considering PV but haven't decided yet but I have made up my mind that batteries make no sense today.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Mind sharing the breakdown of the quote in parts (detailed), labour and VAT, or did they just give you a bottom line figure?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    Mind sharing the breakdown of the quote in parts (detailed), labour and VAT, or did they just give you a bottom line figure?

    I have the breakdown. There is a lot of copy/paste required to get those into a boards post! I'll see what I can do later.


  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,076 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    The other thing, is if I am not borrowing to pay for it, and I had the money for the battery sitting in the bank, would it not be earning more for me as a battery than as a deposit ?

    If you still have a mortgage, then you would be essentially borrowing the money at what ever your mortgage rate is by not paying down your mortgage instead of installing the battery/PV system.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    One quote I got was for 4.1kWp with 5kW Hybrid inverter with 4.8kWh battery was about €7100 inc vat after grant

    The breakdown inc vat before grant was this....
    TSM-295 Panels|€205x14
    5kW Solis Hybrid Inverter|€1800
    Valk Solar mount system|€1295
    Labour|€1900
    4.8kWh PylonTech battery|(€2700+€300 install)
    Misc (Cables, isolators RCBOs)|€300


    The Valk mounting system parts seemed ridiculous to me but maybe they are that price?!


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    All those prices seem very high to me. Looks like you were right about the installers inflating parts prices.

    From a well known Irish website these are prices available to the public (so not including trade discounts):

    Solis 5kW hybrid inverter is 1298 + VAT, not 1800
    Very good quality 300W mono panel is 148 + VAT, not 205
    4.8kWh battery is 1900 + VAT, not 2700

    Labour at 1900 and a mounting system for 1300 how? Someone is making a very hefty profit here!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    unkel wrote: »
    All those prices seem very high to me. Looks like you were right about the installers inflating parts prices.

    From a well known Irish website these are prices available to the public (so not including trade discounts):

    Solis 5kW hybrid inverter is 1298 + VAT, not 1800
    Very good quality 300W mono panel is 148 + VAT, not 205
    4.8kWh battery is 1900 + VAT, not 2700

    Labour at 1900 and a mounting system for 1300 how? Someone is making a very hefty profit here!

    Indeed. I couldn't justify it. The payback was 18yrs by my calculations.

    I haven't seen a quote for much less than that though for 4kWp and 4.8kWh battery. Maybe a few hundred less but not much less.

    Has anyone got a better quote for that spec?


    Also, immersion diverters add about €500 and seem to be included in the quotes by default(but not necessarily listed). Unless you are already heating your water by immersion element they don't pay for themselves either but they add them to make people think they are saving money. You'd be better asking for that to be removed and keep the €500, imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    KCross wrote: »
    One quote I got was for 4.1kWp with 5kW Hybrid inverter with 4.8kWh battery was about €7100 inc vat after grant

    The breakdown inc vat before grant was this....
    TSM-295 Panels|€205x14
    5kW Solis Hybrid Inverter|€1800
    Valk Solar mount system|€1295
    Labour|€1900
    4.8kWh PylonTech battery|(€2700+€300 install)
    Misc (Cables, isolators RCBOs)|€300

    The Valk mounting system parts seemed ridiculous to me but maybe they are that price?!


    Mounting systems here look cheaper


    https://solartricity.ie/products/roof-mountings-system/


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Shefwedfan wrote: »

    I see a whole load of stuff there Shef but what does it cost when you put all the pieces together..... there's flashings, hooks, runners, bits 'n bobs in the quotes... I can't really tell how much a full installation kit is from the website you posted.


    Do you have the total cost of the mounting parts for 14 panels on a slate roof?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    Ok, I've got a bit of a quandry now.

    So, to date I have a quote of 11k for 4kwp solar with 5kw battery and hybrid inverter and eddi water heater equating to 7k after seai grant


    Yesterday, was speaking to another company y who told me the battery was a poor invesent and should avoid it. He offered a 3.5kwp system for a cost of 5,100 after grant (which I think is expensive actually.

    So for 1900 euro extra I am getting 4kwp instead of 3.5kwp and also a 5kwh battery with hybrid inverter meaning I can charge up at night time

    Any thoughts ?

    I got quotes from one company (I think it is the same company who quoted you 11k for the 4kw array/5kwh battery/eddi) and the cost of the 5kwh battery over a 2.5kwh batttery was about €2k. The net cost for the 2.5kwh battery is around €2/300 for me considering the €1k battery grant and the difference in solar grant (there is a cap at €1400 if you don’t get the battery). It might be less for you as you are looking at a 4kw array, mine is likely to be 3.2kw.

    The SEAI has confirmed that you cannot get the solar element of the grant now and then look for the battery element of the grant at a later stage - one application per household. So if you don’t take the battery element at the same time of the solar element it’s gone!

    My thinking is to get the 2.5kwh battery now with the solar. It’s a small battery for the system but you get the infrastructure in place and it’s should be relatively simple to add another battery at a later stage. I just can’t see the ROI of the 5kwh battery over the 2.5kwh battery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    KCross wrote: »
    I see a whole load of stuff there Shef but what does it cost when you put all the pieces together..... there's flashings, hooks, runners, bits 'n bobs in the quotes... I can't really tell how much a full installation kit is from the website you posted.


    Do you have the total cost of the mounting parts for 14 panels on a slate roof?


    Fire them an email....they are very quick to reply.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    The net cost for the 2.5kwh battery is around €2/300 for me considering the €1k battery grant and the difference in solar grant (there is a cap at €1400 if you don’t get the battery). It might be less for you as you are looking at a 4kw array, mine is likely to be 3.2kw.

    My thinking is to get the 2.5kwh battery now with the solar. It’s a small battery for the system but you get the infrastructure in place and it’s should be relatively simple to add another battery at a later stage. I just can’t see the ROI of the 5kwh battery over the 2.5kwh battery.

    Is your motivation to get a battery entirely to save money?
    If it is, I think you are comparing the wrong figures. Its not really €200 extra.

    You need to get a quote for the same system without a battery. The difference between those two quotes is what its really costing you, not the €200 you are using.

    Then see what the ROI is for that difference. I think you'll find the payback is very long. Even trying to future proof it now to add extra batteries later won't justify it, imo.

    Having a battery in the mix increases the cost of the inverter, labour, and obviously the battery itself. The €1k grant just about covers the increased inverter cost.

    Focussing on drawing down the €1k battery grant is fool-hardy, again, imo.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    KCross wrote: »
    Is your motivation to get a battery entirely to save money?
    If it is, I think you are comparing the wrong figures. Its not really €200 extra.

    You need to get a quote for the same system without a battery. The difference between those two quotes is what its really costing you, not the €200 you are using.

    Then see what the ROI is for that difference. I think you'll find the payback is very long. Even trying to future proof it now to add extra batteries later won't justify it, imo.

    Having a battery in the mix increases the cost of the inverter, labour, and obviously the battery itself. The €1k grant just about covers the increased inverter cost.

    Focussing on drawing down the €1k battery grant is fool-hardy, again, imo.

    Opinions duely noted.

    However, since the battery grant is only available at the same time as installing the solar PV I would argue that it also fool-hardy to dismiss it hastingly.

    There are some other considerations that just ROI. The right battery system can be used in the event of a power cut. Granted, 2.5kwh won’t last too long however if resticted to some lighting for example it would last for a number of hours - longer than most power outages I would imagine. With kids in the house I think this is a distinct plus.

    It should also give somewhat of a buffer between the night and day tariffs.

    I don’t see any SEAI registered company supplying and installing a 3.2kw system with diverter for much under €4000 after the grant. My proposed system will be around €5000 after grant with hybrid inverter, eddi and 2.5kwh battery. IF I get 5 years out of the battery, is any savings and peace of mind from some back up power worth €200 per year? To me - yes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Granted, 2.5kwh won’t last too long however if resticted to some lighting for example it would last for a number of hours

    If you take it easy and only use essentials, internet :p, charging phones :p, lights, watch TVs :p, that should last several days.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    KCross wrote: »
    Is your motivation to get a battery entirely to save money?
    If it is, I think you are comparing the wrong figures. Its not really €200 extra.

    You need to get a quote for the same system without a battery. The difference between those two quotes is what its really costing you, not the €200 you are using.

    Then see what the ROI is for that difference. I think you'll find the payback is very long. Even trying to future proof it now to add extra batteries later won't justify it, imo.

    Having a battery in the mix increases the cost of the inverter, labour, and obviously the battery itself. The €1k grant just about covers the increased inverter cost.

    Focussing on drawing down the €1k battery grant is fool-hardy, again, imo.

    Opinions duely noted.

    However, since the battery grant is only available at the same time as installing the solar PV I would argue that it also fool-hardy to dismiss it hastingly.

    There are some other considerations that just ROI. The right battery system can be used in the event of a power cut. Granted, 2.5kwh won’t last too long however if resticted to some lighting for example it would last for a number of hours - longer than most power outages I would imagine. With kids in the house I think this is a distinct plus.

    It should also give somewhat of a buffer between the night and day tariffs.

    I don’t see any SEAI registered company supplying and installing a 3.2kw system with diverter for much under €4000 after the grant. My proposed system will be around €5000 after grant with hybrid inverter, eddi and 2.5kwh battery. IF I get 5 years out of the battery, is any savings and peace of mind from some back up power worth €200 per year? To me - yes.

    That is why I asked if money was your only motivation. If the system quoted allows off grid operation and you value that then cool. Not all systems support that either, by the way, so I presume they have confirmed it will?

    I do think you should get a quote for the same system minus the battery from the same provider to get your true cost, because it certainly ain’t €200! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    KCross wrote: »
    That is why I asked if money was your only motivation. If the system quoted allows off grid operation and you value that then cool. Not all systems support that either, by the way, so I presume they have confirmed it will?

    I do think you should get a quote for the same system minus the battery from the same provider to get your true cost, because it certainly ain’t €200! :)

    I’ve been told that one system under consideration does allow for off-grid operation however it is subject to survey of the existing wiring.

    I plan to have a detailed discussion around the different options when I get the installers to the house. A small battery installed a house along with a decent sized array should only cost €000s extra though and not €0000s. Grant for a 4kw array and any battery is €3800. The grant for a 4kw array and no battery is €1400. That €2400 extra should soak up the vast majority of cost of a small battery and associated costs. In theory ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    unkel wrote: »
    If you take it easy and only use essentials, internet :p, charging phones :p, lights, watch TVs :p, that should last several days.

    Indeed. Lights would be probably be the lowest priority for me the upcoming generation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 799 ✭✭✭niallers1


    And remember. If you go over 2kw pv system you have to get a battery if you want the full grant.

    Grant for 2kw system without battery is 1400 euros
    Grant for 4kw system without a battery is 1400 euros.
    Grant for 4kw system with battery is 3800 euros.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Grant for a 4kw array and any battery is €3800. The grant for a 4kw array and no battery is €1400. That €2400 extra should soak up the vast majority of cost of a small battery and associated costs. In theory ...

    My thinking exactly. So 2400 minus 1100 incl VAT for the 2.4kWh battery minus about 900 incl VAT you pay extra for the hybrid inverter over a standard one. Leaves 400 for the extra cost of installing, which should really more more than plenty

    => the battery is completely free. QED.

    And you are future proofed for easily and cheaply adding lots more battery in future. If you're going to spend the guts of €4k you might as well go balls out €6k :D

    The one thing I don't understand in this scheme is that a 7 panel 2kwp system is the max without planning permission. Do the SEAI really expect anyone going over that to apply for permission? That ain't gonna happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭gunnerfitzy


    unkel wrote: »
    The one thing I don't understand in this scheme is that a 7 panel 2kwp system is the max without planning permission. Do the SEAI really expect anyone going over that to apply for permission? That ain't gonna happen.

    What crossed my mind in relation to this is could the SEAI ask for verification of planning compliance prior to final approval of a grant application? If none is forthcoming could they refuse to pay? :confused:


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    That would be a major concern alright. And it sure looks like the whole grant system is pretty much useless (as in almost all of the subsidy goes straight into the pocket of the installer) unless you go balls out for a 4kwp system plus a very small battery.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Has anyone given a valid reason for not naming the companies?
    It would help those of us considering s system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 65,325 ✭✭✭✭unkel
    Chauffe, Marcel, chauffe!


    Has anyone given a valid reason for not naming the companies?

    Because the forum charter says:

    "Any threads naming specific companies/traders will be deleted."

    :(

    Seems archaic if I'm honest. Maybe they put this in historically because companies were shilling / spamming? I agree with you, this certainly is not helpful


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,116 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Grant for a 4kw array and any battery is €3800. The grant for a 4kw array and no battery is €1400. That €2400 extra should soak up the vast majority of cost of a small battery and associated costs. In theory ...
    niallers1 wrote: »
    And remember. If you go over 2kw pv system you have to get a battery if you want the full grant.

    Grant for 2kw system without battery is 1400 euros
    Grant for 4kw system without a battery is 1400 euros.
    Grant for 4kw system with battery is 3800 euros.
    unkel wrote: »
    My thinking exactly. So 2400 minus 1100 incl VAT for the 2.4kWh battery minus about 900 incl VAT you pay extra for the hybrid inverter over a standard one. Leaves 400 for the extra cost of installing, which should really more more than plenty

    => the battery is completely free. QED.


    This is flawed logic guys.

    Using your logic you might as well go for 5kWp so, draw another €700 grant and they will write you a cheque for the battery! :)
    I know you can't get a grant over 4kWp but you get my point?

    You can't allocate the panel grant to the battery to justify buying the battery because it might leave you with a "free" battery but then you have very expensive panels! You don't get both!

    There is no magic here. You simply have to get an equivalent competitive quote for the same system without a battery and the difference is what the battery is costing you. Simple. Any other manipulation of the grant figures is just fooling yourself.

    If the difference in cost is anything above €1500 between the two quotes you are looking at a very long payback time for your battery. I gave figures back in post 89. Did I get any of those figures wrong?


    Also, simply upping your install to 4.1kWp to justify the battery (as opposed to being suitable for your house) is flawed too because you will simply be pumping more to the grid and shelling out thousands extra for it. A 4.1kWp system will have masses of excess during the day even with the battery.


    You are too focussed on maximising the grant money and not enough on the payback imo, which is exactly what the govt want actually and why they configured the grant the way they did.


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