Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

zapitastas

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.
While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset. Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

You mention historic links as if the relationship had been a positive one, not one that culminated in destitution and death on an unimaginable scale

lawred2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.
While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset. Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

Give it a rest

steddyeddy

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, we have it right now, but post Brexit we will NOT. Unless we become players not spectators.
We need true political leadership from Leo, Mary Louise, and Miche to communicate this vision.
Most of Ireland has moved on from its UK bad, independence good obsession. We are a much more sophisticated country than 100 years ago, and are fit to take a pragmatic decision now, and restore Dublin as the second city of the Empire.

From an economic point of view that's not quite true. The North of Ireland is still under UK jurisdiction. Their economy is essentially managed by Westminster. You think that most people would look at the economy of Northern Ireland and say I wish the rest of Ireland was like that?

swampgas

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.

No, not at all costs. Some costs are just too high.

While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, [...]

The economic shock to Ireland of leaving the EU and joining Brexitania would be enormous. You really are deluded or on a massive wind-up.

[...] guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset.

One and the same? The differences are deep. Never mind the Irish language, the GAA, the Irish music scene, the Irish electoral system, and many other factors, our shared history is hardly something that would encourage Ireland to submit it itself to the tender mercies of a London regime that is currently tearing itself to pieces. We would be thrown to the wolves without a second thought.

Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

And I'm convinced now that you're just trolling, or posting in a style which is indistinguishable from same.

The Rape of Lucretia

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.
While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset. Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

Which corner of the "British Isles"?
There is indeed a great threat to Northern Ireland, less of a threat to the Republic, though Brexit will certainly prove disruptive.


The reality is, however, that economically speaking, Ireland will retain all it's trade links with the EU - whereas Northern Ireland will lose their trade links with - well, - everyone except England, Scotland, and Wales, unless the British Government, and in particular the DUP recognise that pragmatic solutions need to be found, and that Ireland is an Independent Country that will not leave the EU to suit the Loyalist community.


Any illusions that Ireland has any desire, or intention, to rejoin the Commonwealth, or indeed, Britain, are precisely that: Illusions.


Or, to phrase it another way: The tail doesn't wag the dog!

The Rape of Lucretia

Another strand getting the discussion going on the future of the 26, and the other half of the Brejoining equation - the Irexit case being made. Important to get both of these discussions launched, or Ireland risks ending up with a completely misinformed referendum very soon on its future as bad the the Brexit one.

Meeting today if you can make it:

https://www.irexitfreedom.ie

Wanderer78

The Rape of Lucretia wrote:

Another strand getting the discussion going on the future of the 26, and the other have of the Brejoining equation - the Irexit case being made. Important to get both of these discussions launched, or Ireland risks ending up with a completely misinformed referendum very soon on its future as bad the the Brexit one.

I wouldn't overly worry about this, thankfully there's very few 'take back control' folks in Ireland at the moment

Duckworth_Luas

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Meeting today if you can make it

I was going to buy a ticket but then I saw that the link to do so is https://www.ticketsource.eu/irexit

DOT FCUKING EU

No doubt some faceless Eurocrat would have benefited from my purchase.

I shall not attend as a point of protest and instead will be setting up the Irexitfreedomexit party to get true Irexiteers to leave these traitors.

We need Rees-Mogglings, not Quislings.

All My Stars Aligned

Interesting piece in the Irish Times today. Study indicates that a UI would result in a long term 15% drop in the standard of living in the Republic. Never realised how much the UK paid into NI, 12bn p/a. Not a snowballs chance of a UI referendum being pass with those number.

lawred2

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

Interesting piece in the Irish Times today. Study indicates that a UI would result in a long term 15% drop in the standard of living in the Republic. Never realised how much the UK paid into NI, 12bn p/a. Not a snowballs chance of a UI referendum being pass with those number.

There's definitely no chance of flawed or biased analysis there at all at all

Capt'n Midnight

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

Interesting piece in the Irish Times today. Study indicates that a UI would result in a long term 15% drop in the standard of living in the Republic. Never realised how much the UK paid into NI, 12bn p/a. Not a snowballs chance of a UI referendum being pass with those number.

It's only €11Bn if we agreed to keep funding stuff like the UK's Atomic Weapons program :rolleyes:

Removing all the questionable stuff gets it down to €5.7Bn, and that's before we extract a contribution because NI isn't getting cheaper for the UK anytime soon.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Oh look , someone is using the €11Bn figure for NI subvention to predict up to 15% fall in living standards here on reunification.

- It's a lot less than €11Bn
- There's EU funding
- we can borrow until NI productivity approaches ours
- our economy grew 2.5% last quarter.
- the HSE and NHS are slowly converging.
- the UK could be expected to take on some of the cost for future savings

All My Stars Aligned

lawred2 wrote: »

There's definitely no chance of flawed or biased analysis there at all at all

Why would there be?

professore

Peregrinus wrote: »

Before Sean Lemass changed his policies in 1959, I think you mean. He first entered government in 1932 as Minister for Industry and Commerce, and at that time and for long afterwards he was closely associated with de Valera's vision of economic autonomy, self-sufficiency, tariff barriers, and an economy dominated by state-owned effective monopolies.

To be fair to Lemass, he recognised from the early 1950s that this wasn't working and a change was needed, but couldn't persuade de Valera. It wasn't until Dev decided to leave government and go to the Park that Lemass could actually implement a new policy.

But, yes, this was the turning point. Since the late 1950s, the economic performance of the Republic has consistently outperformed that of Northern Ireland. I'm not sure at what point we might say that the Republic caught up with, and then overtook, NI; I think the answer probably depend on which measurement you use - Gross domestic product? Household income? Something else? But, whatever measurement you pick, the answer is likely to be that the Republic overtook NI some decades ago, and is now ahead by a wide margin.

My gut feeling is sometime in the late 80s.

The Rape of Lucretia

All My Stars Aligned wrote: »

Interesting piece in the Irish Times today. Study indicates that a UI would result in a long term 15% drop in the standard of living in the Republic. Never realised how much the UK paid into NI, 12bn p/a. Not a snowballs chance of a UI referendum being pass with those number.

Which is why it is really only in the Breunion scenario that this makes sense, so that the 12bn/pa continues.
True republicans will not be put off by the cost though - if that is the price of a united Ireland, it is not really a question of money. But there are few people interested in a united ireland these days - they have pretty much died out.
But as part of the UK, with funding transfer continuing, so no particular burden on the south, or on the contrary, efficiencies and a minimisation of the Brexit hit, it can make economic sense.

The Rape of Lucretia

Sinn Fein also exploring, and promoting an analysis of, the Breunion option:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-won-t-rule-out-union-jack-over-leinster-house-h2b39hcff

Suddenly, after all the aspiration for union for decades, it seems the greatest resistance is coming from the southern establishment. Is this what is hitting FF support ?

timthumbni

Listen up guys and gals. The DLA bill for republican west Belfast alone would make a priest blush. They must be the sickest community on gods Green earth.

Imreoir2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sinn Fein also exploring, and promoting an analysis of, the Breunion option:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-won-t-rule-out-union-jack-over-leinster-house-h2b39hcff

Suddenly, after all the aspiration for union for decades, it seems the greatest resistance is coming from the southern establishment. Is this what is hitting FF support ?

Obvious troll is obvious.

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

Listen up guys and gals. The DLA bill for republican west Belfast alone would make a priest blush. They must be the sickest community on gods Green earth.

The entire north is ill - it's one of the poorest regions in western Europe. You should be forever grateful that we're willing to take it on because Britain certainly doesn't give a shit about it.

droidman123

A union jack would never fly over leinster house,might as well suggest an italian or american or icelandic flag,ridiculous.when we have a united ireland,anyone that doesnt want to live here is free to leave anytime they want

dxhound2005

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Sinn Fein also exploring, and promoting an analysis of, the Breunion option:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/we-won-t-rule-out-union-jack-over-leinster-house-h2b39hcff

Suddenly, after all the aspiration for union for decades, it seems the greatest resistance is coming from the southern establishment. Is this what is hitting FF support ?

You do know that Breunion is the movement trying to get the UK back into the EU. You have been doing it wrong all along.

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Listen up guys and gals. The DLA bill for republican west Belfast alone would make a priest blush. They must be the sickest community on gods Green earth.

The entire north is ill - it's one of the poorest regions in western Europe. You should be forever grateful that we're willing to take it on because Britain certainly doesn't give a shit about it.

Hi big balls. Do I have to remind you of ghost estates in the south? And NO, we aren’t one of the poorest regions.... ffs. Grow up....

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Listen up guys and gals. The DLA bill for republican west Belfast alone would make a priest blush. They must be the sickest community on gods Green earth.

The entire north is ill - it's one of the poorest regions in western Europe. You should be forever grateful that we're willing to take it on because Britain certainly doesn't give a shit about it.

Hi big balls. Do I have to remind you of ghost estates in the south? And NO, we aren’t one of the poorest regions.... ffs. Grow up....

FrancieBrady

droidman123 wrote: »

A union jack would never fly over leinster house,might as well suggest an italian or american or icelandic flag,ridiculous.when we have a united ireland,anyone that doesnt want to live here is free to leave anytime they want

There is the very real prospect that Brexit and what it does to the UK might consign the Union Jack to the bin of history.

Interesting times ahead for flag designers.

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

Hi big balls. Do I have to remind you of ghost estates in the south? And NO, we aren’t one of the poorest regions.... ffs. Grow up....

In the top ten actually.

Junkyard Tom

timthumbni wrote: »

Do I have to remind you of ghost estates in the south?

They're all sold-off ages ago.

And NO, we aren’t one of the poorest regions

Yes it is. It's in the top ten poorest regions in western Europe with 8 of the remaining 9 in Britain.

Britain is in trouble and the clowns in the DUP seem determined to make everything worse by supporting Brexit.

droidman123

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is the very real prospect that Brexit and what it does to the UK might consign the Union Jack to the bin of history.

Interesting times ahead for flag designers.

I have always had the opinion that the union jack flag,like the swaztika flag should be banned for what it represented.i cannot fathom how that flag is accepted worldwide.the sooner it is dismantled and put in the same grave as the swaztika the better

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is the very real prospect that Brexit and what it does to the UK might consign the Union Jack to the bin of history.

Interesting times ahead for flag designers.

I have always had the opinion that the union jack flag,like the swaztika flag should be banned for what it represented.i cannot fathom how that flag is accepted worldwide.the sooner it is dismantled and put in the same grave as the swaztika the better

The Irish tricolour should be banned too then. Draped over the coffins of kid killers like the Ira. Would you agree with it being dismantled too?

timthumbni

droidman123 wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is the very real prospect that Brexit and what it does to the UK might consign the Union Jack to the bin of history.

Interesting times ahead for flag designers.

I have always had the opinion that the union jack flag,like the swaztika flag should be banned for what it represented.i cannot fathom how that flag is accepted worldwide.the sooner it is dismantled and put in the same grave as the swaztika the better

The Irish tricolour should be banned too then. Draped over the coffins of kid killers like the Ira. Would you agree with it being dismantled too?

timthumbni

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

timthumbni wrote: »

Do I have to remind you of ghost estates in the south?

They're all sold-off ages ago.

And NO, we aren’t one of the poorest regions

Yes it is. It's in the top ten poorest regions in western Europe with 8 of the remaining 9 in Britain.

Britain is in trouble and the clowns in the DUP seem determined to make everything worse by supporting Brexit.

We will be fine Tom. Maybe the west Belfast sicknotes are bring8ng us down. Everyone here seems to be driving a bmw and lives in big houses. If that’s poor then I’m a monkeys uncle...

FrancieBrady

timthumbni wrote: »

We will be fine Tom. Maybe the west Belfast sicknotes are bring8ng us down. Everyone here seems to be driving a bmw and lives in big houses. If that’s poor then I’m a monkeys uncle...

^^ ^^ As good an example of fingers in the ears as you will get. Well done Tim.