Why the north outside EU changes everything for the island

Imreoir2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Easily avoided if the 26 rejoin the 6. Reboot to 1921, with a more mature, realist, post-catholic south without the chip on its shoulder, that can fully embrace being part of the UK, and minimise the hit from the Brexit fiasco.
A proper working together of all communities on this island can be a leading light inspiring the mainland to a successful Brexit (in the long run granted - the short term will be a rocky ride alright), and make the British Isles an economic powerhouse specialising in the areas the EU is weak, being a more nimble sea trading nation with a broader reach, and rebuilding mutually beneficial links with old allies all around the world.

Have you been looking over JRM's next statement on the border issue?

The Rape of Lucretia

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Have you been looking over JRM's next statement on the border issue?

Yes. And border check are backwards and unworkable. Thats why we need an imaginative and creative solution, that shakes off the hangups of the past of both North and South, and realises the mutual benefit of full integration both on Ireland, and as part of Great Britain. It removes the threat of any violence. Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands strengthens everybody, and insulates what today is the republic, from the the harshest impact that Brexit would have on it if it tries to maintain its EU membership in the face of an overwhelming Brexit hurricane.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes. And border check are backwards and unworkable. Thats why we need an imaginative and creative solution, that shakes off the hangups of the past of both North and South, and realises the mutual benefit of full integration both on Ireland, and as part of Great Britain. It removes the threat of any violence. Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands strengthens everybody, and insulates what today is the republic, from the the harshest impact that Brexit would have on it if it tries to maintain its EU membership in the face of an overwhelming Brexit hurricane.

So there would be no borders around this new utopia? Or would we all just stay within it's confines swilling Pimms and toasting our economic luck with our new monarchy?

Junkyard Tom

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands.

Honestly this is utter fantasy. Anyone who even tried to propose it in an election manifesto, in Ireland, would be laughed at. A lot of us would consider it treasonous.

You'd be better off trying to keep together what remains of the failing English/Wales/Scotland 'union'. Just give up on the northeast of Ireland, it's a lost cause, a sectarian project born of the threat of terror against the Irish people that will come to an end sooner or later.

Peregrinus

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes. And border check are backwards and unworkable. Thats why we need an imaginative and creative solution, that shakes off the hangups of the past of both North and South, and realises the mutual benefit of full integration both on Ireland, and as part of Great Britain. It removes the threat of any violence. Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands strengthens everybody . . .

Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands is what we have right now, and what we'd love to keep. But the British - the English, really - won't have it.

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

. . . and insulates what today is the republic, from the the harshest impact that Brexit would have on it

This is obviously wrong, since right now we have the full economic union that you call for and yet it's not protecting us from Brexit.

The rock on which your fantasies founder is the the British will always make their own decisions and are not accountable to us for them. They may be good decisions; they may be bad decisions; but, either way, they will not be our decisions. Being in a "full economic union" with them has not stopped them threatening us with harm through Brexit. And if you imagine that it would be any different if we were in a full economic union with them and only them, well, we tried that, and it didn't stop them making decisions harmful to us then, either.

Bottom line: It is never, ever in Ireland's interest to increase its dependency on Great Britain.

The Rape of Lucretia

Yes, we have it right now, but post Brexit we will NOT. Unless we become players not spectators.
We need true political leadership from Leo, Mary Louise, and Miche to communicate this vision.
Most of Ireland has moved on from its UK bad, independence good obsession. We are a much more sophisticated country than 100 years ago, and are fit to take a pragmatic decision now, and restore Dublin as the second city of the Empire.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, we have it right now, but post Brexit we will NOT. Unless we become players not spectators.
We need true political leadership from Leo, Mary Louise, and Miche to communicate this vision.
Most of Ireland has moved on from its UK bad, independence good obsession. We are a much more sophisticated country than 100 years ago, and are fit to take a pragmatic decision now, and restore Dublin as the second city of the Empire.

The vision you are struggling to communicate without the use of vague dreaming about being a part of a monarchy again?

Would there be any onus on Britain to fundamentally change their direction in order to join with us, or is this just a tired old John Brutonesque genuflection and 'sorry we made a mess of it your Majesty, please take us back' plea?

Peregrinus

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, we have it right now, but post Brexit we will NOT. Unless we become players not spectators.
We need true political leadership from Leo, Mary Louise, and Miche to communicate this vision.
Most of Ireland has moved on from its UK bad, independence good obsession. We are a much more sophisticated country than 100 years ago, and are fit to take a pragmatic decision now, and restore Dublin as the second city of the Empire.

Even if there were still an empire (or even an Empire), I cannot see what possible advantage would accrue to Dublin from being its second city. We were the second city of the empire before, and were then noted mainly for the huge proportion of the city's population that lived in slum tenements, and for having one of the largest sex industries in Europe.

Right now, we have full economic union with 27 other countries. Because the Brits are throwing their toys out of the pram, post-Brexit we must choose between full economic union with 26 other countries, or full economic union with the UK. I struggle to see why picking one of these things would make us a "player", but picking the other would make us a "spectator".

You don't have to make this choice by invoking what you call a "UK bad, independence good obsession". It is true that our experience of being in the UK was very bad, and our experience of independence has been much better. But even if you ignore this you can just ask whether it's in Ireland better interests to be in a "full economic union" with the UK, or to be in a full economic union with the rest of the EU-27? The answer, obviously, is the latter, for countless reasons - we do far more trade with them, they are a far bigger market, they are a stronger economic performer, they're a first-rate economic power, they are open to the world in a way that the UK is not, they take us seriously in a way that Britain never has, etc, etc. And that's even before we compare our experience of being in the two kinds of union, both of which we have tried before. One was, objectively viewed, really bad; the other, objectively viewed, really good. There's no contest here.

swampgas

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, we have it right now, but post Brexit we will NOT. Unless we become players not spectators.
We need true political leadership from Leo, Mary Louise, and Miche to communicate this vision.
Most of Ireland has moved on from its UK bad, independence good obsession. We are a much more sophisticated country than 100 years ago, and are fit to take a pragmatic decision now, and restore Dublin as the second city of the Empire.

Ireland has outstripped the UK in many ways. (Our more modern form of democracy (PR-STV) is, in my opinion, a huge part of that.)

Perhaps the UK could rejoin Ireland and London could be the second city of the expanded new Irish state, ruled from Dublin?

No? It's about as likely as what you're suggesting, to be honest.

Hotblack Desiato

Peregrinus wrote: »

Full economic union both on the island and between the two islands is what we have right now

You are using a very odd definition of full economic union.

No we don't have this, because full economic union would mean taxation and spending being decided in London and having a common currency, so interest rates set in London as well (unless they join the euro!)

What's being proposed goes a lot further than the relationship we now have with other EU member states and even with other eurozone members. It is de jure or de facto returning to UK rule over all of Ireland. Didn't work out the last time did it?

What we do have is the customs union and single market, and we'd certainly like to keep those with regard to the UK. The loss of either means inevitable massive disruption and an almost certain hard border for goods either on the ground or in the Irish Sea. There is no avoiding this. Technology or political waffle will not make these issues go away.

The rock on which your fantasies founder is the the British will always make their own decisions and are not accountable to us for them.

Exactly, which is why any measure which integrates us more closely with the UK rather than with the EU as a whole is a seriously bad idea.

The Rape of Lucretia

FrancieBrady wrote: »

So there would be no borders around this new utopia? Or would we all just stay within it's confines swilling Pimms and toasting our economic luck with our new monarchy?

There would be of course boarders with outside the UK with the rest of the world. No borders on the island of Ireland or between Ireland and the mainland is clearly what I meant.

I wouldnt get so uppity about the monarchy either - I dont think anyone could argue that its better than a TV style celebrity contest that has somehow gone a step too far into the real world. (and what the story with the rest of the dragons while we are at it, apart from three, there would seem to be others who have not clearly said whether they are running for president or not?).

The Rape of Lucretia

swampgas wrote: »

Ireland has outstripped the UK in many ways. (Our more modern form of democracy (PR-STV) is, in my opinion, a huge part of that.)

Perhaps the UK could rejoin Ireland and London could be the second city of the expanded new Irish state, ruled from Dublin?

No? It's about as likely as what you're suggesting, to be honest.

I wouldnt say out stripped. Closed the gap. Or sufficently close to be fully integratable now. That was not the case 100+ years ago.

The Rape of Lucretia

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It is de jure or de facto returning to UK rule over all of Ireland. Didn't work out the last time did it?

This is being blinded by the now irrelevant past. We nead leadership to nurse people beyond this backward looking bias, and take things as they truly are today. Ireland is not a rural backwater any more. Discarding the historical hangups, prejudices, and (admittedly brainwashed anti English rhetoric many Irish people have been subjected to for 100 years) knee jerk republic-is-better line, a united British Isles is clearly a natural union, and one that in this difficult unexpected situation of Brexit (of course no-Brexit is a superior outcome to all), must be reconsidered with fresh and open minds.

Hotblack Desiato

The "mainland" ?

Hotblack Desiato

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Ireland is not a rural backwater any more.

Which is precisely why we should not shackle ourselves to a failing, and likely disintegrating, UK.

Taytoland

steddyeddy wrote: »

Taytoland wrote: »

Loyalist paramilitaries murdered hundreds of people, would be no reason why they couldn't with Irish army soldiers, Irish police force etc, actual visible targets in Protestant areas and further afield.

Most of the loyalist victims were civilians. I don't think they'd have a chance against actual trained soldiers.

IEDs, ambushes, off duty traps etc.

swampgas

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is being blinded by the now irrelevant past. We nead leadership to nurse people beyond this backward looking bias, and take things as they truly are today. Ireland is not a rural backwater any more. Discarding the historical hangups, prejudices, and (admittedly brainwashed anti English rhetoric many Irish people have been subjected to for 100 years) knee jerk republic-is-better line, a united British Isles is clearly a natural union, and one that in this difficult unexpected situation of Brexit (of course no-Brexit is a superior outcome to all), must be reconsidered with fresh and open minds.

I think a fresh and open mind would be better suited to yourself, to be honest. You truly seem to be living in the past, and a victim of a different kind of brainwashing. We (in Ireland) have, to a large extent, moved on from the past: IMO it is the UK that is still mired in past glories, and which seems determined to turn the clock back rather than move ahead.

We (the Irish people) have our own distinct vibrant culture and economy. We have our own political system, hard fought for, and while not perfect, working pretty well. We would not be better off in the UK. It would be the very death of us as a nation. How you can't see this is beyond me.

We are lucky to be a member of the EU, an entity which far better reflects the values of Ireland than the class-ridden, elitist, monarchist, England first-above-all-others, ex-colonial master that faces us across the Irish sea.

Given the choice between the EU and the UK, there is only one option for Ireland that makes any sense to anyone who has the vaguest inkling of what makes this country of ours tick. And it certainly isn't John Bull.

As for needing leadership - are you blind? Ireland has strong leadership right now. If anyone is in need of leadership, just cast your eyes across the water.

Imreoir2

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

This is being blinded by the now irrelevant past. We nead leadership to nurse people beyond this backward looking bias, and take things as they truly are today. Ireland is not a rural backwater any more. Discarding the historical hangups, prejudices, and (admittedly brainwashed anti English rhetoric many Irish people have been subjected to for 100 years) knee jerk republic-is-better line, a united British Isles is clearly a natural union, and one that in this difficult unexpected situation of Brexit (of course no-Brexit is a superior outcome to all), must be reconsidered with fresh and open minds.

Thats some nice trolling there Lucretia.

FrancieBrady

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

There would be of course boarders with outside the UK with the rest of the world. No borders on the island of Ireland or between Ireland and the mainland is clearly what I meant.

:D:cool:

I wouldnt get so uppity about the monarchy either - I dont think anyone could argue that its better than a TV style celebrity contest that has somehow gone a step too far into the real world. (and what the story with the rest of the dragons while we are at it, apart from three, there would seem to be others who have not clearly said whether they are running for president or not?).

When I see generations of Michael D's family born into privilege and wealth I will agree with you.

J Mysterio

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

between Ireland and the mainland

:pac:

Sunny Disposition

I really can’t see southern Irish unionism rising again, just no appetite for it. Not even in South Dublin:)
This evening I read an article by a journalist from 2010 saying partition was now accepted and that people were accepting a United Ireland wasn’t feasible. Eight years on and it’s totally different, amazing how identity politics always breaks out in the North. Virtually no one left who was born before partition but nationalism is now on the brink of becoming the majority, killing nationalism with an iron fist didn’t work and the relative kindest of the Belfast Agreeement hasn’t extinguished it either.
I wonder if the Republicans had focused on civil disobedience rather than violence would we be much closer to a 32 county republic?

FrancieBrady

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

I really can’t see southern Irish unionism rising again, just no appetite for it. Not even in South Dublin:)
This evening I read an article by a journalist from 2010 saying partition was now accepted and that people were accepting a United Ireland wasn’t feasible. Eight years on and it’s totally different, amazing how identity politics always breaks out in the North. Virtually no one left who was born before partition but nationalism is now on the brink of becoming the majority, killing nationalism with an iron fist didn’t work and the relative kindest of the Belfast Agreeement hasn’t extinguished it either.
I wonder if the Republicans had focused on civil disobedience rather than violence would we be much closer to a 32 county republic?

There was plenty of violence before republicans got involved. People of my dad's generation lived in what was tantamount to a police state. You couldn't disobey, civilly or otherwise.

riffmongous

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

I wouldnt say out stripped. Closed the gap. Or sufficently close to be fully integratable now. That was not the case 100+ years ago.

I wonder what made the last 100 years different to the previous hundreds of years that allowed this economic miracle to happen?

Funny trolling all the same, but the sad thing is there are actually some British people out there (in comments sections) who believe in this, if they even realise we aren't Northern Ireland

flutered

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Last poll I just googled sees the SNP at 41%.

with more members than the conservitaves, plus they are the party with the most new members this year

flutered

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You cannot fight wars without money. When you are revising your European history (which I advise you to) look to where Blighty got the money.

it also cost them their first devalueation of their pound, by 50% roughly as demanded by the u.s.

FrancieBrady

flutered wrote: »

it also cost them their first devalueation of their pound, by 50% roughly as demanded by the u.s.

As Michael Caine might say - 'Not a lot of people know that', particularly the Brexiteer mob hankering after a notion of Britishness that never really existed.

Infini

swampgas wrote: »

Ireland has outstripped the UK in many ways. (Our more modern form of democracy (PR-STV) is, in my opinion, a huge part of that.)

Perhaps the UK could rejoin Ireland and London could be the second city of the expanded new Irish state, ruled from Dublin?

No? It's about as likely as what you're suggesting, to be honest.

You could only imagine finding this on adverts.ie one day...

For sale: One country, Former Empire, Well Worn, Needs new parts, renovating, Optional Troll Spraying.

For purchase £1Trillion or €1/$1.20. Other currencies accepted as payment!

Sunny Disposition

Are we better off with a hard border? The inconvenience could help rise annoyance with the mad reality of partition.

The Rape of Lucretia

Sunny Disposition wrote: »

Are we better off with a hard border? The inconvenience could help rise annoyance with the mad reality of partition.

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.
While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset. Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

droidman123

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Yes, but it would be partition, which is what we want to avoid at all costs. Yet your little thought experiment shows how we must do whatever it takes - whatever it takes - to avoid that.
While the EU is batting doggedly for us, there are times when you must take matters in your own hands, have courage, overcome obstacles that previously would have seemed insurmountable, and do what you can.
In the case of the 26, it is Brejoining. Whatever goes on between Westminster and Brussels, we can do that. Minimising the ecomonic shock, guaranteeing no border on the island, and maintaining our historic links with our closest neighbours, with whom we are effectively one and the same in language, culture, history, politics, art, sport, and deep mindset. Enough time has been wasted already, and the rumblings of a no-deal Brexit are growing louder - truly a great threat to this corner of the British Isles.
The first clear step - and even the most green tinted anti-UK thinker can have no rational objection to it - is to rejoin the Commonwealth. Tout de suite. It will start the nudge of change in the right direction as people come around to the pragmatic, if difficult, decision they will have to make in the next 36 months.

Please stop saying british isles,i was born and raised in dublin and i have never lived in the british isles.i dont care if some people wrongly say its a geographical term,i find it offensive