Hurling V Football

FrancieBrady

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Well they'd have the range alright, but not always the accuracy. Especially when under pressure. No way would you pop one over from that distance when on the run. Games in Croke Park probably make the distance shooting look easier too with the stands providing a bit of a shelter from the elements.

Regardless, it keeps teams honest when they can be punished from that distance. Football teams can retreat deep into their own half safe in the knowledge that any shot taken out near the sideline or little further beyond the 21 there's a good chance it will go wide or drop short.

Well, it routinely takes huge numbers out of the game watching balls sailing over their heads.


What is the hurling guys want here...to give half the footballers sticks or something?

Water John

There is no hit and hope in hurling at the top level. Really a fantastic game. The two sports that require a whole range of talents, reaction, hand eye coordination, short speed, etc are tennis and hurling.

MD1990

Hurling is far superior atm & I am not a huge fan of GAA.

But Hurling has improved. Much less hit & hope & better passing makes it better than it was is the past,
My only problem with hurling is the ball's may be too light as keepers can drive the ball to the opposition 21.

deaddonkey15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Well, it routinely takes huge numbers out of the game watching balls sailing over their heads.


What is the hurling guys want here...to give half the footballers sticks or something?

Yet the top scorers from play are almost always the forwards.

FrancieBrady

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Yet the top scorers from play are almost always the forwards.

We were talking about long range hits.

bucketybuck

Water John wrote: »

There is no hit and hope in hurling at the top level.

Thats rather the point, its hit with no need for hope. Get into space around the middle of the field, line up your shot and bag another point for the ever burgeoning tally.

And what is the point in claiming it isn't easy? It happens repeatedly in all these "classic" matches, when something is commonplace then there is nothing special about it.

Players shooting from their own 45, goalkeepers launching the ball into their own corner forwards, if it was a soccer game people would be pointing out the long ball tactics.

deaddonkey15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We were talking about long range hits.

I know, and his point was that scoring from range takes a huge number of players out of the game when in reality the majority of scores from play come from passes into the forwards. Often worked up through the field by running and passing movements. Lads here are criticising the distant scoring as if hurling is just some tit for tat shootout from 80 or 90 metres.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

Thats rather the point, its hit with no need for hope. Get into space around the middle of the field, line up your shot and bag another point for the ever burgeoning tally.

What a laughably simple view of the game.

bucketybuck wrote: »

Players shooting from their own 45, goalkeepers launching the ball into their own corner forwards, if it was a soccer game people would be pointing out the long ball tactics.

It isn't soccer though. Silly point.

FrancieBrady

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I know, and his point was that scoring from range takes a huge number of players out of the game when in reality the majority of scores from play come from passes into the forwards. Often worked up through the field by running and passing movements. Lads here are criticising the distant scoring as if hurling is just some tit for tat shootout from 80 or 90 metres.

No that was my point.

It is getting more and more prevalent the long hits of the ball either for position or scoring.
It will get like the big serve in tennis, which finished me watching it.

deaddonkey15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No that was my point.

It is getting more and more prevalent the long hits of the ball either for position or scoring.
It will get like the big serve in tennis, which finished me watching it.

On the contrary, long hit balls are becoming less prevalent. Clare were probably the pioneers (often to their detriment) of the short passing/running game. It's been adopted by pretty much every top side now. Short puckouts are a major part of the game, when in the past they were just driven long.

FrancieBrady

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

On the contrary, long hit balls are becoming less prevalent. Clare were probably the pioneers (often to their detriment) of the short passing/running game. It's been adopted by pretty much every top side now. Short puckouts are a major part of the game, when in the past they were just driven long.

There was plenty of it over the two days imo. Not necessarily a bad thing, I hate to see it in football, like most though.

Ace2007

MD1990 wrote: »

Hurling is far superior atm & I am not a huge fan of GAA.

But Hurling has improved. Much less hit & hope & better passing makes it better than it was is the past,
My only problem with hurling is the ball's may be too light as keepers can drive the ball to the opposition 21.

But has it improved overall, there are only a handful of teams that play the game to a decent level. If there were as many games in Hurling as there are in Football, I wonder would the same be said.

FrancieBrady

Ace2007 wrote: »

But has it improved overall, there are only a handful of teams that play the game to a decent level. If there were as many games in Hurling as there are in Football, I wonder would the same be said.

That's it's abiding problem. Terrific range in quality.

deaddonkey15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There was plenty of it over the two days imo. Not necessarily a bad thing, I hate to see it in football, like most though.

There was, and there were plenty of short passes too. Have a look Clare's extra time equaliser yesterday.

In my opinion football could do with more long passing. Repetitive hand passing and keep ball can be very boring. The last 10 or 15 minutes of the Dublin Donegal game a few weeks ago were torture and I tuned in hoping to see a cracker. Difficult to pass long when there's no space though.

mattser

Ace2007 wrote: »

But has it improved overall, there are only a handful of teams that play the game to a decent level. If there were as many games in Hurling as there are in Football, I wonder would the same be said.

Always were only a handful hurling counties who were masters of the art. Look at football All Ireland winners. Where's the difference ?. Kerry Dublin and the also rans.

mattser

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

There was, and there were plenty of short passes too. Have a look Clare's extra time equaliser yesterday.

In my opinion football could do with more long passing. Repetitive hand passing and keep ball can be very boring. The last 10 or 15 minutes of the Dublin Donegal game a few weeks ago were torture and I tuned in hoping to see a cracker. Difficult to pass long when there's no space though.

The gas thing about that was the Donegal crowd booing. McGuiness invented that ****e.

bucketybuck

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

It isn't soccer though. Silly point.

:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady

mattser wrote: »

Always were only a handful hurling counties who were masters of the art. Look at football All Ireland winners. Where's the difference ?. Kerry Dublin and the also rans.

The gulf wouldn't be near as big across the football championship though, plenty of teams at a decent enough standard to give a game to most other teams.
Not so in hurling.

deaddonkey15

mattser wrote: »

The gas thing about that was the Donegal crowd booing. McGuiness invented that ****e.

I found it ironic as well. I'll never forget that game they played against Dublin a few years back with everyone camped in their own half. That was probably the birth of the blanket defence.

In fairness to Dublin, they play good football. It's a pity there's few out there who can put it up to them.

Ace2007

mattser wrote: »

Always were only a handful hurling counties who were masters of the art. Look at football All Ireland winners. Where's the difference ?. Kerry Dublin and the also rans.

Yes but other counties in football are competitive, and competitive to a decent level. In football for instance you will probably see an ulster team being 12/1 to win Sam next year, however you would probably get 500/1 on an Ulster team winning Liam, and you would probably get the same bet for the next 10 years.

Like when was the last big shock in Hurling, ala Kildare beating Mayo. Your not going to have Antrim beating a beaten finalist for instance? No matter what Antrim were to do, because the 6 top teams can ping the ball over the bar from half back line etc.

mattser

Ace2007 wrote: »

Yes but other counties in football are competitive, and competitive to a decent level. In football for instance you will probably see an ulster team being 12/1 to win Sam next year, however you would probably get 500/1 on an Ulster team winning Liam, and you would probably get the same bet for the next 10 years.

Like when was the last big shock in Hurling, ala Kildare beating Mayo. Your not going to have Antrim beating a beaten finalist for instance? No matter what Antrim were to do, because the 6 top teams can ping the ball over the bar from half back line etc.

If you go back 21 years you have 8 football county and 7 hurling county AI winners. I rest my case.

FrancieBrady

mattser wrote: »

If you go back 21 years you have 8 football county and 7 hurling county AI winners. I rest my case.

I think the point being made is blindingly obvious but you don't want to take it on board.
It isn't about AI winners.

The Lost Sheep

mattser wrote: »

If you go back 21 years you have 8 football county and 7 hurling county AI winners. I rest my case.

Look at semi finalists in that period then? It isnt all about winners of the all ireland you cant just look at that

mattser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the point being made is blindingly obvious but you don't want to take it on board.
It isn't about AI winners.

Go ahead. Enlighten me.

namloc1980

The massive scoring in hurling games, in particular this year, is getting a bit ridiculous tbh. 25+ points by each team is now routine. Definitely think the ball needs a bit of weight added. The players are bigger and more powerful than ever and at this stage can nearly hit the ball the length of the field.

FrancieBrady

mattser wrote: »

Go ahead. Enlighten me.

There is a far higher standard across the football championship as a whole than the hurling one.

It's glaringly obvious that there are more teams capable of knocking each other out than there is in hurling that is. It seems to me to be ever decreasing in competitive teams. Would there even be 6?

mattser

FrancieBrady wrote: »

There is a far higher standard across the football championship as a whole than the hurling one.

It's glaringly obvious that there are more teams capable of knocking each other out than there is in hurling that is. It seems to me to be ever decreasing in competitive teams. Would there even be 6?

Try again, Francie. I was responding to a poster who claimed the hurling pool is small. I gave you the stats.

Sheep breeder

Think both games are a joy to watch as regards skill level, really the big thing for me is the huge drive and get up and get on with the players have and to see joe canning in full flow would leave Neymar as only a hand bag, Great to watch.

Ace2007

mattser wrote: »

If you go back 21 years you have 8 football county and 7 hurling county AI winners. I rest my case.

What’s your case?

Football as a whole is more competitive than hurling - weaker counties can beat stronger teams on their day as it’s not as easy to score - ala Kildare v Mayo - huge shock

When was the last big big shock of similar nature in hurling?

Your comment about All Ireland in last 21 years - why did you pick 21? Of those football teams how many were from Ulster? For the hurling teams many were from Ulster?

Akrasia

Ace2007 wrote: »

What’s your case?

Football as a whole is more competitive than hurling - weaker counties can beat stronger teams on their day as it’s not as easy to score - ala Kildare v Mayo - huge shock

When was the last big big shock of similar nature in hurling?

Your comment about All Ireland in last 21 years - why did you pick 21? Of those football teams how many were from Ulster? For the hurling teams many were from Ulster?

There aren't many big shocks in hurling because it is competitive, if Wexford beats Kilkenny its not a big shock. Any division 1 team can beat any other team on the day.

There is a drop off to tier 2 counties, but the tier 1 is hugely competitive unlike Football where you knew before the season started that Dublin will win with maybe Kerry or Mayo making the final

Akrasia

namloc1980 wrote: »

The massive scoring in hurling games, in particular this year, is getting a bit ridiculous tbh. 25+ points by each team is now routine. Definitely think the ball needs a bit of weight added. The players are bigger and more powerful than ever and at this stage can nearly hit the ball the length of the field.

The majority of points from play are scored from within the opposition half. Free takers can convert long distance chances but thats a rare skill that should be rewarded.

There's nothing wrong with high scoring games. It makes them exciting if teams can potentially recover from being 9 points down like on Saturday or 6 points down on Sunday.

bucketybuck

Akrasia wrote: »

There is a drop off to tier 2 counties

Now there is an understatement.

A division 3 side beat a division 1 side in the football championship this season, the chances of that ever happening in hurling are non existent I would imagine.

A core group of 5/6 teams having shootouts between each other, its all a bit shallow to me.

Ace2007

Akrasia wrote: »

There aren't many big shocks in hurling because it is competitive, if Wexford beats Kilkenny its not a big shock. Any division 1 team can beat any other team on the day.

There is a drop off to tier 2 counties, but the tier 1 is hugely competitive unlike Football where you knew before the season started that Dublin will win with maybe Kerry or Mayo making the final

You guys fail to see the points that are being made. Your saying that there are no major shocks cause it’s competitive among a handful of teams. 10 I think?

It’s not possible for a randon team to pull off the shock of the decade cause they are not allow to complete for Liam. Whereas in football you have 33 teams?

The original poster said that hurling had improved - if that means by a handful of teams is that improvement on a whole?

Also neither Mayo nor Kerry will be in the final this year so your point there is kinda off.

cms88

Ace2007 wrote: »

You guys fail to see the points that are being made. Your saying that there are no major shocks cause it’s competitive among a handful of teams. 10 I think?

It’s not possible for a randon team to pull off the shock of the decade cause they are not allow to complete for Liam. Whereas in football you have 33 teams?

The original poster said that hurling had improved - if that means by a handful of teams is that improvement on a whole?

Also neither Mayo nor Kerry will be in the final this year so your point there is kinda off.

I wouldn't waste your time. There's nothing more deluded than a hurling snob

cms88

Ace2007 wrote: »

What’s your case?

Football as a whole is more competitive than hurling - weaker counties can beat stronger teams on their day as it’s not as easy to score - ala Kildare v Mayo - huge shock

When was the last big big shock of similar nature in hurling?

Your comment about All Ireland in last 21 years - why did you pick 21? Of those football teams how many were from Ulster? For the hurling teams many were from Ulster?

Makes his case look better of course. Just so he can add Offaly into it, team who haven't been even close to winning anything for also 20 years now

Roger_007

Where I come from there was no hurling at all, so I played football. When I got too old and decrepit to play football I lost interest in the game but I enjoy watching hurling matches on TV.
I often ask myself why, if its is a better game, hurling has not become the dominant GAA game. Why is it still only played at a high level in a handful of counties despite strenuous efforts by the GAA to promote hurling in the non-traditional areas.
I think part of the answer lies in the attitudes of hurling people themselves. They regard their game as surperior and an essential part of being Irish. They regard Gaelic football as some kind of bastardised mixture of rugby and soccer and therefore not really 'Irish' at all. Sport should not be politicised in this way.
Those who claim that hurling is the best field game in the world should ask themselves the question: 'Why hasn't hurling spread to the rest of Ireland, never mind the rest of the world?'. The answer may lie in their own political attitudes and how they connect the sport you play with your politics.

Warper

Ace2007 wrote: »

What’s your case?

Football as a whole is more competitive than hurling - weaker counties can beat stronger teams on their day as it’s not as easy to score - ala Kildare v Mayo - huge shock

When was the last big big shock of similar nature in hurling?

Your comment about All Ireland in last 21 years - why did you pick 21? Of those football teams how many were from Ulster? For the hurling teams many were from Ulster?

Huge shock?? 2 Div 1 teams, i think the bookies had Kildare at 6-4 and Mayo 8-13 on the day, if thats a huge shock in your mind well............

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

Now there is an understatement.

A division 3 side beat a division 1 side in the football championship this season, the chances of that ever happening in hurling are non existent I would imagine.

A core group of 5/6 teams having shootouts between each other, its all a bit shallow to me.

Indeed. Nothing shallow at all about Dublin playing practically every championship game at home. Steamrolling other Leinster teams by scorelines comparable to the hurling ones that people here are giving out about. Nothing shallow about Croke Park miraculously being classed as both a home and a neutral venue for the Dubs.

Nothing shallow about seeding the Munster Football Championship to virtually guarantee a Cork V Kerry final every year. A match which Kerry usually win without much fuss.

Football is more competitive at a level just below the elite, there's no doubt about that. Beyond that though, there's a smaller pool of teams that can realistically win the All Ireland in a given year than there is in hurling now that KilKenny's dominance has ended.

Akrasia

bucketybuck wrote: »

Now there is an understatement.

A division 3 side beat a division 1 side in the football championship this season, the chances of that ever happening in hurling are non existent I would imagine.

A core group of 5/6 teams having shootouts between each other, its all a bit shallow to me.

There are 12 teams in Division 1a and Division 1b
In division 1b there are 3 teams that aren't up to pace (laois, Antrim and Offaly) so that's 9 competitive teams in one championship that are capable of beating each other on any given day.

cms88

Akrasia wrote: »

There are 12 teams in Division 1a and Division 1b
In division 1b there are 3 teams that aren't up to pace (laois, Antrim and Offaly) so that's 9 competitive teams in one championship that are capable of beating each other on any given day.

Really? :rolleyes:

Limerick beat Kilkenny for the first time in almost 45 years only a few weeks ago. Waterford beat them last year for the first time in 50 years. So any given day every 40 decades or so...

cms88

Warper wrote: »

Huge shock?? 2 Div 1 teams, i think the bookies had Kildare at 6-4 and Mayo 8-13 on the day, if thats a huge shock in your mind well............

Carlow a Div 4 team beat Kildare a Div 1 earlier in the year. When's the last time anytime similar happened in hurling?

mattser

cms88 wrote: »

I wouldn't waste your time. There's nothing more deluded than a hurling snob

No snobbery. Just people giving an opinion, and not reducing themselves to smartassery.

FrancieBrady

I think it is hard to suggest that hurling is a better game in general. It is a better game when it comes to a handful of top games without as doubt.

And that is the reason it is where it is as a game.

Now as it becomes more and more high scoring I find as a neutral that I have a tendency to switch off until it gets down to the business end of the game - the last 15 minutes.
I can't think of another sport were I would do that as a neutral.

robbiezero

A problem for football that has really been highlighted by this years hurling championship is the out-dated provincial championships.
By the time the super-8s came around people had a pain in their hole from one-sided games, a septic Munster and Leinster championship. There were some poor hurling games too particularly in the Leinster group, but they get quickly forgotten about amidst so many competitive games. Football badly needs a tiered championship and to get rid of the provincial championships.

Hurling also needs rid of provincial championships.
1) They are now unfair as it is much easier to qualify in Leinster
2) They are fairly worthless. What use is Corks Munster championship win now.

robbiezero

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think it is hard to suggest that hurling is a better game in general. It is a better game when it comes to a handful of top games without as doubt.

And that is the reason it is where it is as a game.

Now as it becomes more and more high scoring I find as a neutral that I have a tendency to switch off until it gets down to the business end of the game - the last 15 minutes.
I can't think of another sport were I would do that as a neutral.

And would you watch the full 70 of say Fermanagh vs Monaghan?

FrancieBrady

robbiezero wrote: »

And would you watch the full 70 of say Fermanagh vs Monaghan?

That was a fascinating match this year.

Yes it was defensive, but that can have an attraction too.

One of the reasons I enjoy soccer is that it is more formally tactical. That can be boring for some, but I enjoy it mostly. Rugby too for the same reason.

Hurling can be a frenzy of scoring, end to end stuff, but essentially it is about who wins the last 15-10 minute shoot out. As a neutral I am fully tuned into those minutes and not really engaged with the earlier stuff.

Watched a bit of basketball in the states and the crowds treated that game similarly. Sit in the bars having drinks and meals during the game and only really engage for the last bit.

Bridge93

To add another layer to that depth of winners debate:

Since the turn of the century there have been 10 sides who competed in the hurling semi finals. The football equivalent has seen 15 sides which might be 16 if Monaghan win this weekend. There is a further 7 sides who've played at the quarter final stage. So 23 of 33 participating sides have played in the All Ireland series this century.
The depth at that level below is certainly deeper in football. Football is suffering currently from what hurling did until recently with Dublin playing the role of Kilkenny

robbiezero

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That was a fascinating match this year.

Yes it was defensive, but that can have an attraction too.

One of the reasons I enjoy soccer is that it is more formally tactical. That can be boring for some, but I enjoy it mostly. Rugby too for the same reason.

Hurling can be a frenzy of scoring, end to end stuff, but essentially it is about who wins the last 15-10 minute shoot out. As a neutral I am fully tuned into those minutes and not really engaged with the earlier stuff.

Watched a bit of basketball in the states and the crowds treated that game similarly. Sit in the bars having drinks and meals during the game and only really engage for the last bit.

Each to their own I guess. I thought it was dreadful. I don't mind defensive football once there is some semblance of an attacking plan with it even if just counter-attacking on turnovers, which is why I hate watching the likes of Fermanagh and Carlow.

FrancieBrady

robbiezero wrote: »

Each to their own I guess. I thought it was dreadful. I don't mind defensive football once there is some semblance of an attacking plan with it even if just counter-attacking on turnovers, which is why I hate watching the likes of Fermanagh and Carlow.

Fermanagh's winning score came from an attacking counter move because as a game/competition it wasn't dead until the final kick of the game.

I wasn't neutral at that game but it was in the balance for the duration just as the two hurling games this weekend were.
They are equally attractive as competitive games in their own way.
the problem is that hurling is only competitive among a handful of teams and neutrals only really engage with it at the end of the championship.

The first round of the football championship can have some great games.

deaddonkey15

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fermanagh's winning score came from an attacking counter move because as a game/competition it wasn't dead until the final kick of the game.

I wasn't neutral at that game but it was in the balance for the duration just as the two hurling games this weekend were.
They are equally attractive as competitive games in their own way.
the problem is that hurling is only competitive among a handful of teams and neutrals only really engage with it at the end of the championship.

The first round of the football championship can have some great games.

In Ulster and Connacht maybe. But games with 2 Ulster sides slogging it out in the rain up in Clones don't live long in the memory.

There's some great games in the early rounds of the hurling too.