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Donald Trump is the President Mark IV (Read Mod Warning in OP)
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Rhineshark wrote: »Yes, it does matter. Enough with false equivalence nonsense. If you have two people making an argument at you with your decision resulting in profound consequences the answer is not "oh, both sides are as bad as each other so who cares about objective truth", which is essentially your argument. It's easier to ignore both than to actually do the work of researching it and using one's brain.
Facts matter. That approach is lazy and foolish. And dangerous to a democratic state.
I'm not saying both sides are as bad. I'm really not.
My only point is that American voters can now choose which truth to believe, politics is largely 'us vrs them' and the country is ****ed.0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »I'll post the video again because you're clearly too lazy to have read back the thread and instead just hopped in onto one my later comments.
This woman is a full-time paid protestor whose team confronted Flake in the lift. Again, not a claim, it's a fact. She admits to it, and so do vice news, which is why they followed her. This has nothing to do with the NYT, this is simply me rebutting the idea that Trump was completely incorrect when he called out the paid protestors in DC this week.
Where the two women who confronted Flake and told him of being sexual assaulted paid? This video does not say they were but you keep indicating they are. Is your only proof that they were with this paid consultant in the senate building? Do you believe they were assaulted?0 -
There aren't two versions of the truth. That's KAC speak.0
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MightyMandarin wrote: »I'll post the video again because you're clearly too lazy to have read back the thread and instead just hopped in onto one my later comments.
This woman is a full-time paid protestor whose team confronted Flake in the lift. Again, not a claim, it's a fact. She admits to it, and so do vice news, which is why they followed her. This has nothing to do with the NYT, this is simply me rebutting the idea that Trump was completely incorrect when he called out the paid protestors in DC this week.
I watched that. Melissa is paid as a consultant by Ultra Violet. According to the video, everyone else was an unpaid protestor. Melissa just oragsnised them. I found the video uplifting and inspiring. Go Melissa!0 -
So paying people to organise rallies, advertising, lobbying is all fine and dandy.
But paying a person to organise a group of citizens to protest is a stain on democracy?0 -
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Water John wrote: »There aren't two versions of the truth. That's KAC speak.
Like I said, one may be more objectively true but when both versions have 24 hour new channels backing them up, it makes little difference.
I think people are seeing something that I'm not saying to be honest.0 -
I'm not saying both sides are as bad. I'm really not.
My only point is that American voters can now choose which truth to believe, politics is largely 'us vrs them' and the country is ****ed.
No, they can choose what to believe, sure. But that does not make whatever they choose to believe true.
There is no "alt-truth". There is the truth and there is a lot of misconceptions, lies, wishful thinking and bull****.
Sure for the rest. It is deeply polarised and many will just plain not believe anything that doesn't cone from one if their own sources, be it NBC or the Daily Wire. That does not mean that, say, NBC and Daily Wire are comparable in their general connection to reality. That's where I'm objecting.0 -
Captain Obvious wrote: »Celebrating the liberal tears. It's what motivates some people. In the long run, Kavanaugh being appointed and Trumps disaster of a presidency will be good for Dems. It has motivated people like never before, particularly grass roots. The site for the collection fund for Collins' next opponent has crashed due to being inundated. The whole thing has given US citizens a clear view of how screwed their systems are from locals to presidential. Every poor decision swung by Kavanaugh will push more people out.
It's up to the dems to take advantage of it now. Whether they can get their house in order remains to be seen.
I am less optimistic than you.
In the last presidential election it was clear that the public were fed up of traditional politicians. It's no wonder that on the Republican side both Trump and Ted Cruz did so well (hated by the Republican leadership) and on the Democrat side Bernie Sanders did so well (but the Democratic leadership provided a more unified front against Bernie).
But it's not clear that either party has learned from 2016 at all. The Supreme Court nomination has almost nothing to do with the accusation of attempted rape from 30 years ago, and everything to do with party political allegiance. The Republicans vote Republican, the Democrats vote Democrat, the only difference is that the gulf is widening.
Nobody in this case cares about the truth, they care about their side winning, and I can't see how that works to the public's benefit.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are supporting spiraling debt, erosion of individuals' rights, and strengthening of control of central government. It is becoming increasingly irrelevant who is in power, with the exception that tribal instincts will make people think that their side are the better ones. It just so happens that Ireland believes its side is the Democratic party, so our media will bellyache until that changes (likely in 6 years time).0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »I am less optimistic than you.
In the last presidential election it was clear that the public were fed up of traditional politicians. It's no wonder that on the Republican side both Trump and Ted Cruz did so well (hated by the Republican leadership) and on the Democrat side Bernie Sanders did so well (but the Democratic leadership provided a more unified front against Bernie).
But it's not clear that either party has learned from 2016 at all. The Supreme Court nomination has almost nothing to do with the accusation of attempted rape from 30 years ago, and everything to do with party political allegiance. The Republicans vote Republican, the Democrats vote Democrat, the only difference is that the gulf is widening.
Nobody in this case cares about the truth, they care about their side winning, and I can't see how that works to the public's benefit.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are supporting spiraling debt, erosion of individuals' rights, and strengthening of control of central government. It is becoming increasingly irrelevant who is in power, with the exception that tribal instincts will make people think that their side are the better ones. It just so happens that Ireland believes its side is the Democratic party, so our media will bellyache until that changes (likely in 6 years time).
Both parties could do with redefining their core beliefs and principles.0 -
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RandomName2 wrote: »I am less optimistic than you.
In the last presidential election it was clear that the public were fed up of traditional politicians. It's no wonder that on the Republican side both Trump and Ted Cruz did so well (hated by the Republican leadership) and on the Democrat side Bernie Sanders did so well (but the Democratic leadership provided a more unified front against Bernie).
But it's not clear that either party has learned from 2016 at all. The Supreme Court nomination has almost nothing to do with the accusation of attempted rape from 30 years ago, and everything to do with party political allegiance. The Republicans vote Republican, the Democrats vote Democrat, the only difference is that the gulf is widening.
Nobody in this case cares about the truth, they care about their side winning, and I can't see how that works to the public's benefit.
Both the Republicans and Democrats are supporting spiraling debt, erosion of individuals' rights, and strengthening of control of central government. It is becoming increasingly irrelevant who is in power, with the exception that tralist insticts will make people think that their side are the better ones. It just so happens that Ireland believes its side is the Democratic party, so our media will bellyache until that changes (likely in 6 years time).
Tbh, Ireland has no side in this politically although it would be a definite improvement to have a US a bit less fluhooloc with tariffs and also less ignorant about both Europe and Russia.
Anyone still arguing that both sides are as bad as the other after two years of this unmitigated ****show ...I really don't know what to say to you.
One does not have to laud the democrats to the sky to appreciate that yes, yes there is a difference between the utter swamp that is Trump's admin and the GOP Senate enabling him and the current minority party. Nuance is still permissible. Even when neither side matches ones own cultural politics, which neither Dem nor Rep do.
This idea of balance where either a) complete bull**** must be treated with the same respect as evidence and/or b) to show how tolerant and fair we are we must accept "both sides are as bad" is sheer mental laziness, it really is.
Yes, right and wrong still exist as do facts, evidence and truth. Again, this does not make me a democrat. I am perfectly capable of disagreeing with them without tarring them with the very black brush the Reps currently have.
And by the way, I'd say this if it was the Dems under Clinton pulling these stunts too.
Also, if one does not care about the truth that is one thing but it is frankly silly to decide that that means nobody does. Way to brush aside thousands of women protesting there. Obviously they don't care. They were just doing it for partisan shiggles..0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »I watched that. Melissa is paid as a consultant by Ultra Violet. According to the video, everyone else was an unpaid protestor. Melissa just oragsnised them. I found the video uplifting and inspiring. Go Melissa!
She's honestly doing everything possible to put more power in the GOP's hands and away from any progressive who's going to bring any real change. She's a trumped-up college yuppie who blagged herself a full-time gig at being a paid moaner and without any sort of proper proof calls a man a 'sexual assaulter'. She's indicative of the #metoo movement being completely out of control and has made it so much easier for the GOP to tilt the balance in favour of conservativism for the next 30years.
If she and the rest of those yokes had stayed at home and sat on their arses, there'd be a better chance that Kavanaugh wouldn't be in because the GOP base wouldn't have been riled up this much.0 -
There has been two pages of nonsense about whether the organiser of the door-step protest against Flake is a full-time paid activist - it is nonsense.
For f*ck sake - Washington has more than 15,000 full-time paid lobbyists who do exactly the same thing across a whole range of issues.
Trump hired actors to turn up and cheer at his events (Clinton also hired actors) - lobby groups hire 'rent-a-crowd' all the time in the US.
It is a completely superfluous argument to the much bigger - and more concerning - issues.
I actually disagree with you on this - the GOP and the Democrats are two cheeks off of the same a*se - they just represent different wings of the rich elite establishment (GOP the old money and the oil money - the Democrats financial capital and the vulture funds).Hilariously, no-one actually gives a **** about Kavanaugh. He's just the embodiment of the struggle both sides are engaged in.
The Republicians are celebrating because in a two horse race, they actually got the Republicans to vote together - amazing, what a performance.
Democrats are saying it's an outrage that the Republicians are voting together. What an outrage!
The real struggle is not between these two cheeks - it is a struggle between progressive elements and reactionary elements in society - and the USA has reactionary elements to spare (the creationists who want to control the curriculum in schools - the religious fundamentalists who want their 'religious beliefs' to dominate society - the racists who want white domination re-established - the misogynists who want patriarchy to be the dominant mode of relationships etc).
The struggle for rights is now manifesting itself on the streets and in a major strike wave that has spread across America - manifest in movements like the -
- The 15Now movement for a minimum wage of $15 an hour (a movement that forced low pay onto the political agenda in 2016 and has seen its latest success, after a series of strikes, in forcing Jeff Bazos to increase the minimum wage for Amazon workers to $15 an hour).
- The BlackLivesMatters movement that has brought racism back onto the political agenda after several decades
- The MeToo movement that has focused massive attention on the issue violence against women, sexism, discrimination, patriarchy and misogyny - and the attempt to limit abortion rights in the US
- The strike wave among teachers that has been sweeping across America this year as a result of the fact that education is falling apart at the seams as the vulture funds jockey to fleece the education system for as much money as they can get.
These are the struggles that are taking place - and the opposition to Kavanaugh is a manifestation of how traditional elephant and donkey politics no longer represents the majority of the American population. And lost in all the kerfuffle about Kavanaugh is that a few weeks ago Trump blocked a pay increase for more than 2 million civilian federal employees - federal employees now earn significantly less thatn they did ten years ago (while at the same time handing $100billion tax cut to the super-rich in America).
Party voter registration has been consistently falling since 2006 - when the wheels began to come off the economic bubble. For example - just 8% of registered Republicans are under 30 years of age.
The nature of party affiliation is demonstrated by the fact that 54% of registered Republicans said they support Kavanaugh's ratification to the Supreme Court - even if he is guilty of sexual assault against Ford - how sick is that - being willing to put a perpetrator of sexual assault onto the Supreme Court because it serves your wider political interests. This of course represents the roughly 10% of American society that is in-your-face predominantly older, white, male. redneck, christian fundamentalist, misogynist (and often racist).
There was a political sea-change since 2008 - Obama brought visions of hope to large swathes of American society - but he was just another run-of-the-mill corporate president. Since then an increasing percentage of the American population have been abandoning 'traditional' politics and taking to the streets.Regardless of who wins the next elections, It's very hard to see a way forward for the states as a functional democracy after these last couple of years.
The nature of this sea-change was demonstrated by the massive support for Sanders in the primaries - despite the fact that Sanders' programme was not particularly radical, but it was seen as a major departure from the staid politics of the elephant and the donkey. The mistake Sanders made was not abandoning the Democrats and running as an independent when he was shafted by the top dogs in the DNC. He may not have won - but it would have been fun to see Trump and Clinton lining up up to attack him - and his campaign would have built a mass radical movement around his candidacy.
The divide in American society is a class divide - a divide between wealth and poverty - a divide between power and hopelessness. There are the initial signs of changes occurring that could harness the movements on the streets and in the workplaces.
e.g.
- the re-election of Kshama Sawant in 2015 to Seattle City Council (the first Marxist elected in Seattle in more than 100 years - Sawant is a member of Socialist Alternative which is a sister party of the Socialist Party in Ireland) - re-elected despite the fact that the GOP and the DNC combined and threw an estimated $3million into a campaign to unseat her
- the victories in the primaries for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib for Congress - members of the Democratic Socialists of America (who have seen their membership increase ten-fold since 2015) - coupled with state victories for DSA members in Iowa, Montana, Tennessee, Virginia, Minnesota and Massachusetts in 2017. There is an increasing number of DSA candidates in city and state elections who could potentially win over the coming period.
As happens in times of crisis (and the US is going through a crisis) the political norm is thorn asunder and large sections of the population begin searching for alternative politics. The Democrats should be wiping out the Republicans in the elections next month - they aren't because they can't - and this year's mid-terms is likely to see an attitude of a plague on both yer houses - because neither of the two cheeks offer anything to a significant majority of the American population.0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »She's honestly doing everything possible to put more power in the GOP's hands and away from any progressive who's going to bring any real change. She's a trumped-up college yuppie who blagged herself a full-time gig at being a paid moaner and without any sort of proper proof calls a man a 'sexual assaulter'. She's indicative of the #metoo movement being completely out of control and has made it so much easier for the GOP to tilt the balance in favour of conservativism for the next 30years.
If she and the rest of those yokes had stayed at home and sat on their arses, there'd be a better chance that Kavanaugh wouldn't be in because the GOP base wouldn't have been riled up this much.
By "yokes" are you referring to the two women who told Flake of their sexual assault and caused him to delay the vote?0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »She's honestly doing everything possible to put more power in the GOP's hands and away from any progressive who's going to bring any real change. She's a trumped-up college yuppie who blagged herself a full-time gig at being a paid moaner and without any sort of proper proof calls a man a 'sexual assaulter'. She's indicative of the #metoo movement being completely out of control and has made it so much easier for the GOP to tilt the balance in favour of conservativism for the next 30years.
If she and the rest of those yokes had stayed at home and sat on their arses, there'd be a better chance that Kavanaugh wouldn't be in because the GOP base wouldn't have been riled up this much.
So women (yokes) who wish to protest against sexual violence by lobbying their public representatives should shut up lest they only make things worse. Okay.0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »She's honestly doing everything possible to put more power in the GOP's hands and away from any progressive who's going to bring any real change. She's a trumped-up college yuppie who blagged herself a full-time gig at being a paid moaner and without any sort of proper proof calls a man a 'sexual assaulter'. She's indicative of the #metoo movement being completely out of control and has made it so much easier for the GOP to tilt the balance in favour of conservativism for the next 30years.
If she and the rest of those yokes had stayed at home and sat on their arses, there'd be a better chance that Kavanaugh wouldn't be in because the GOP base wouldn't have been riled up this much.
Kavanaugh would have been confirmed a month ago had it not been for the allegations from Dr Ford. The Republican senate members (and some of the conservative Democrats) were all going to vote for him regardless because they have donors and special interest groups who pay for political votes in such a situation.
When you say the #meetoo is out of control can you explain this further. As of right now how many high profile men have been accused..100 maybe? How many women were found to be lying..a handful?0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »There has been two pages of nonsense about whether the organiser of the door-step protest against Flake is a full-time paid activist - it is nonsense.
For f*ck sake - Washington has more than 15,000 full-time paid lobbyists who do exactly the same thing across a whole range of issues.
Trump hired actors to turn up and cheer at his events (Clinton also hired actors) - lobby groups hire 'rent-a-crowd' all the time in the US.
It is a completely superfluous argument to the much bigger - and more concerning - issues.
I actually disagree with you on this - the GOP and the Democrats are two cheeks off of the same a*se - they just represent different wings of the rich elite establishment (GOP the old money and the oil money - the Democrats financial capital and the vulture funds).
The real struggle is not between these two cheeks - it is a struggle between progressive elements and reactionary elements in society - and the USA has reactionary elements to spare (the creationists who want to control the curriculum in schools - the religious fundamentalists who want their 'religious beliefs' to dominate society - the racists who want white domination re-established - the misogynists who want patriarchy to be the dominant mode of relationships etc).
The struggle for rights is now manifesting itself on the streets and in a major strike wave that has spread across America - manifest in movements like the -
- The 15Now movement for a minimum wage of $15 an hour (a movement that forced low pay onto the political agenda in 2016 and has seen its latest success, after a series of strikes, in forcing Jeff Bazos to increase the minimum wage for Amazon workers to $15 an hour).
- The BlackLivesMatters movement that has brought racism back onto the political agenda after several decades
- The MeToo movement that has focused massive attention on the issue violence against women, sexism, discrimination, patriarchy and misogyny - and the attempt to limit abortion rights in the US
- The strike wave among teachers that has been sweeping across America this year as a result of the fact that education is falling apart at the seams as the vulture funds jockey to fleece the education system for as much money as they can get.
These are the struggles that are taking place - and the opposition to Kavanaugh is a manifestation of how traditional elephant and donkey politics no longer represents the majority of the American population. And lost in all the kerfuffle about Kavanaugh is that a few weeks ago Trump blocked a pay increase for more than 2 million civilian federal employees - federal employees now earn significantly less thatn they did ten years ago (while at the same time handing $100billion tax cut to the super-rich in America).
Party voter registration has been consistently falling since 2006 - when the wheels began to come off the economic bubble. For example - just 8% of registered Republicans are under 30 years of age.
The nature of party affiliation is demonstrated by the fact that 54% of registered Republicans said they support Kavanaugh's ratification to the Supreme Court - even if he is guilty of sexual assault against Ford - how sick is that - being willing to put a perpetrator of sexual assault onto the Supreme Court because it serves your wider political interests. This of course represents the roughly 10% of American society that is in-your-face predominantly older, white, male. redneck, christian fundamentalist, misogynist (and often racist).
There was a political sea-change since 2008 - Obama brought visions of hope to large swathes of American society - but he was just another run-of-the-mill corporate president. Since then an increasing percentage of the American population have been abandoning 'traditional' politics and taking to the streets.
The nature of this sea-change was demonstrated by the massive support for Sanders in the primaries - despite the fact that Sanders' programme was not particularly radical, but it was seen as a major departure from the staid politics of the elephant and the donkey. The mistake Sanders made was not abandoning the Democrats and running as an independent when he was shafted by the top dogs in the DNC. He may not have won - but it would have been fun to see Trump and Clinton lining up up to attack him - and his campaign would have built a mass radical movement around his candidacy.
The divide in American society is a class divide - a divide between wealth and poverty - a divide between power and hopelessness. There are the initial signs of changes occurring that could harness the movements on the streets and in the workplaces.
e.g.
- the re-election of Kshama Sawant in 2015 to Seattle City Council (the first Marxist elected in Seattle in more than 100 years - Sawant is a member of Socialist Alternative which is a sister party of the Socialist Party in Ireland) - re-elected despite the fact that the GOP and the DNC combined and threw an estimated $3million into a campaign to unseat her
- the victories in the primaries for Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and Rashida Tlaib for Congress - members of the Democratic Socialists of America (who have seen their membership increase ten-fold since 2015) - coupled with state victories for DSA members in Iowa, Montana, Tennessee, Virginia, Minnesota and Massachusetts in 2017. There is an increasing number of DSA candidates in city and state elections who could potentially win over the coming period.
As happens in times of crisis (and the US is going through a crisis) the political norm is thorn asunder and large sections of the population begin searching for alternative politics. The Democrats should be wiping out the Republicans in the elections next month - they aren't because they can't - and this year's mid-terms is likely to see an attitude of a plague on both yer houses - because neither of the two cheeks offer anything to a significant majority of the American population.
Another excellent post.0 -
The Republican party doesn't represent that. Can you point to any policies that support your assertion? You do realise that black and female republicans get to vote on these policies? Do you think they're racists and misandrists or is it just white male Republicans that are racists and misandrists?
The idea that the Republicans are trying to damage or hurt women and black people is nothing but pure nonsense.
At least if a lot of you are going to make dangerous, radical generalisations then you should at least try and back it up.
Instead of being defensive, ask yourself why people currently have this view of the republican party? I don’t doubt there are decent republicans, but they are being damaged by association and their failure to fix the rot within their own party.
Fix the rot ...
A Republican president
A Republican Senate Majority
A Republican House Majority
Over 1000 local and state legislative seats flipped to Republican during Obamas 8 years.
2 Supreme Court Justices appointed by a Republican President
And a fighting chance of maintaining House and Senate majoritys come November...
..rot ... interesting way to put it .0 -
rossie1977 wrote: »Kavanaugh would have been confirmed a month ago had it not been for the allegations from Dr Ford. The Republican senate members (and some of the conservative Democrats) were all going to vote for him regardless because they have donors and special interest groups who pay for political votes in such a situation.
When you say the #meetoo is out of control can you explain this further. As of right now how many high profile men have been accused..100 maybe? How many women were found to be lying..a handful?
And he's likely going to be confirmed anyway, so the past month's been a complete waste of time for everyone except the virtue-signallers in the Democrats and Trumpers in the GOP who are just looking to rile up their bases ahead of the midterms. The whole thing has been a complete fiasco created for the sole purpose of political gain.
There's absolutely questions about Kavanaugh's record and the records which have remained concealed, but nobody gives a **** about that because that doesn't sell newspapers or make for good clickbait.
The #metoo movement has now become a literal meme. It started with good intentions, and for some involved in it, it still has. But there's no doubt that there's a whole host of rubbish involved in it which discredits it almost entirely. How much did we hear from Hollywood about Weinstein before it went on? Sure they were all too happy to work with him to further their careers when they all knew what he was like. How many of them are still mates with Polanski? And then there's the small matter of smear campaigns against lads like Aziz Anzari just because some eejit slept with him and regretted it, and then he gets branded a rapist. That's #metoo for you.0 -
Captain Obvious wrote: »By "yokes" are you referring to the two women who told Flake of their sexual assault and caused him to delay the vote?
Oh yeah 'delay the vote', wow that made so much of a difference to the whole process in which he most likely ends up voting for him anyway unless he wants to just do a McCain moment and make himself the hero. He was always going to do some grandstanding rubbish anyway.Professor Moriarty wrote: »So women (yokes) who wish to protest against sexual violence by lobbying their public representatives should shut up lest they only make things worse. Okay.
Shouting in their faces is definitely not the way to go about it, and it only ends up drilling support on the other side, thereby worsening their own chances.0 -
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Fix the rot ...
A Republican president
A Republican Senate Majority
A Republican House Majority
Over 1000 local and state legislative seats flipped to Republican during Obamas 8 years.
2 Supreme Court Justices appointed by a Republican President
And a fighting chance of maintaining House and Senate majoritys come November...
..rot ... interesting way to put it .
The majority of republicans wanted to confirm Kavanagh even if the accusations were proven true. You might not be Irish but in general, for this country sexually abusing people gets you in trouble. But this is also the party that nearly voted in Roy Moore.
This is the problem with republicans like you. As long as the republican wins you don't care. They can be a child rapist, a murderer, or a racist but at least they aren't a democrat. That's exactly the rot they are talking about. How can we believe anything you say when you'll defend those?0 -
Like that woman who said in front of her young daughters that there's nothing wrong with teenage boys groping teenage girls
Morally rotten0 -
Rhineshark wrote: »Way to brush aside thousands of women protesting there. Obviously they don't care. They were just doing it for partisan shiggles..
Maybe they were all assaulted by Kavanaugh too. :rolleyes:
Or perhaps they have coherent reason to believe that he does not have adequate credentials for the position? :rolleyes:
Not partisan? It is as partisan as you get. They don't care about Kavanaugh, they are protesting against Trump, and using crushed-can face as a vehicle to that end.BabyCheeses wrote: »in general, for this country sexually abusing people gets you in trouble.
If the victim goes to the police at some point.0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »Oh yeah 'delay the vote', wow that made so much of a difference to the whole process in which he most likely ends up voting for him anyway unless he wants to just do a McCain moment and make himself the hero. He was always going to do some grandstanding rubbish anyway.
Shouting in their faces is definitely not the way to go about it, and it only ends up drilling support on the other side, thereby worsening their own chances.
Hush now woman, the misogynists will get angry.
As was pointed out in the video, Republican politicians refuse to meet them. Too busy meeting paid corporate lobbyists. Good on those women. Anything legal that promotes their cause and exposes GOP hypocrisy is fine by me.0 -
MightyMandarin wrote: »And he's likely going to be confirmed anyway, so the past month's been a complete waste of time for everyone except the virtue-signallers in the Democrats and Trumpers in the GOP who are just looking to rile up their bases ahead of the midterms. The whole thing has been a complete fiasco created for the sole purpose of political gain.
There's absolutely questions about Kavanaugh's record and the records which have remained concealed, but nobody gives a **** about that because that doesn't sell newspapers or make for good clickbait.
The past month has shown Kavanaugh is totally unsuitable for the role. He has shown himself to be a liar, completely partisan and dangerously unhinged under pressure. The fact that the Republican party are enabling him highlights they will do everything possible to hold onto power for as long as possible.
Your argument that if Dr Ford had said nothing and stayed at home the Republicans wouldn't be as riled up doesn't have any basis in fact. Everything that's happened last 10 years and longer suggests that. When Obama was elected you had hordes of Republicans taking to the streets to protest. They spent 8 years blocking him at every turn. He spent a full year trying to incorporate bi-partisan ideas into the health care bill was was told to go f**k himself. They made sure that the supreme court seat was empty for 14 months so Obama couldn't get his pick nominated.
The Republicans have been riled up for a long time. Everyday you have millions listening to far-right propaganda on tv, radio and online and buying into it. Its been that way for 20+ years. They couldn't wait to rub it everyone's faces when they passed the health bill in the house..celebrating with a party on the white house lawn.The #metoo movement has now become a literal meme. It started with good intentions, and for some involved in it, it still has. But there's no doubt that there's a whole host of rubbish involved in it which discredits it almost entirely. How much did we hear from Hollywood about Weinstein before it went on? Sure they were all too happy to work with him to further their careers when they all knew what he was like. How many of them are still mates with Polanski? And then there's the small matter of smear campaigns against lads like Aziz Anzari just because some eejit slept with him and regretted it, and then he gets branded a rapist. That's #metoo for you.
Doesn't explain why its out of control though. Will there be people who abuse its good intentions..of course there will.
I can't speak for the women who who worked for Weinstein. I can't speak for the kids who were abused by a Marist Brother in my small hometown either.0 -
Jolly Red Giant wrote: »- The BlackLivesMatters movement that has brought racism back onto the political agenda after several decades
- The MeToo movement that has focused massive attention on the issue violence against women, sexism, discrimination, patriarchy and misogyny - and the attempt to limit abortion rights in the US
I agree with your post on many points, but I think that these movements became more divisive than useful. BLM didn't protest police brutality, or the heavy hand of the state, or legal injustice, it focused, *exclusively* on black people suffering injustice. Even the name of the movement makes it sound as if non-people of color don't matter. That's a real way to bring communities together.
Metoo is the same idea. It is exclusively aimed at men, and almost exclusively by women. It has narrowed the definition of who can be victim whilst simultaneously widening the scope of what is considered sexual assault.
These movemnets identify the symptoms and not the causes. The cause is power without accountability, not racism and sexism. While blacks were predominantly the victims of police manslaughter, and women predominantly the victims of sexual assault in business/ corporate world, these were incidental in terms of this being reflective of the relative allocation of power. Saying that cops in the US are racist, or men in America are sexist, does not help in curing the underlying issues in relation to this power gap.0 -
Instead of being defensive, ask yourself why people currently have this view of the republican party? I don’t doubt there are decent republicans, but they are being damaged by association and their failure to fix the rot within their own party.
I'm not being defensive. You are trying to suggest that the Republican party are racist and misogynists which is untrue.
People have that view of the Republican party because they're being lazy. Mass generalisations about racism and misogynism will only dilute your argument. If you had of said the Republican party supports legislation against abortion, are less progressive etc. then you can back up those points but generalisations about the party as a whole as racist and misogynist are simply untrue.
Sure if you are a racist or a misogynist then you would likely be conservative and by your very nature would support the GOP but that does not mean the party represents those views. Most Americans don't represent those values either.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Jolly Red Giant wrote: »- The BlackLivesMatters movement that has brought racism back onto the political agenda after several decades
- The MeToo movement that has focused massive attention on the issue violence against women, sexism, discrimination, patriarchy and misogyny - and the attempt to limit abortion rights in the US
I agree with your post on many points, but I think that these movements became more divisive than useful. BLM didn't protest police brutality, or the heavy hand of the state, or legal injustice, it focused, *exclusively* on black people suffering injustice. Even the name of the movement makes it sound as if non-people of color don't matter. That's a real way to bring communities together.
Metoo is the same idea. It is exclusively aimed at men, and almost exclusively by women. It has narrowed the definition of who can be victim whilst simultaneously widening the scope of what is considered sexual assault.
These movemnets identify the symptoms and not the causes. The cause is power without accountability, not racism and sexism. While blacks were predominantly the victims of police manslaughter, and women predominantly the victims of sexual assault in business/ corporate world, these were incidental in terms of this being reflective of the relative allocation of power. Saying that cops in the US are racist, or men in America are sexist, does not help in curing the underlying issues in relation to this power gap.[/quotassàRemember people no matter how you protest it will be the wrong way.
A successful metoo campaign would also make it easier for male victims of sexual assault to come forward.
Heavier accountability for police would make it harder for bad cops to mistreat white people as well.
And maybe, just maybe dismissing these causes on relatively minor details while half of republicans would be happy to put a rapist on the supreme court and the president is all too happy to make fun of sexual assault victims might be counter productive to getting those power structures gone.0 -
rossie1977 wrote: »The past month has shown Kavanaugh is totally unsuitable for the role. He has shown himself to be a liar, completely partisan and dangerously unhinged under pressure. The fact that the Republican party are enabling him highlights they will do everything possible to hold onto power for as long as possible.
Your argument that if Dr Ford had said nothing and stayed at home the Republicans wouldn't be as riled up doesn't have any basis in fact. Everything that's happened last 10 years and longer suggests that. When Obama was elected you had hordes of Republicans taking to the streets to protest. They spent 8 years blocking him at every turn. He spent a full year trying to incorporate bi-partisan ideas into the health care bill was was told to go f**k himself. They made sure that the supreme court seat was empty for 14 months so Obama couldn't get his pick nominated.
The Republicans have been riled up for a long time. Everyday you have millions listening to far-right propaganda on tv, radio and online and buying into it. Its been that way for 20+ years. They couldn't wait to rub it everyone's faces when they passed the health bill in the house..celebrating with a party on the white house lawn.
John Oliver did a good piece on how active the NRA base were. They'd show up to every little local vote, no matter how small. If it was a law or ordinance related to guns, they'd vote it down. They're motivated by fear. That's likely the source of their racism too.rossie1977 wrote: »Doesn't explain why its out of control though. Will there be people who abuse its good intentions..of course there will.
I can't speak for the women who who worked for Weinstein. I can't speak for the kids who were abused by a Marist Brother in my small hometown either.
BLM and MeToo are really just hashtags that have been associated with various things. There's no organisation or control behind them. You can pretty much associate anything you want with it.I'm not being defensive. You are trying to suggest that the Republican party are racist and misogynists which is untrue.
Their policies indicate otherwise.People have that view of the Republican party because they're being lazy. Mass generalisations about racism and misogynism will only dilute your argument. If you had of said the Republican party supports legislation against abortion, are less progressive etc. then you can back up those points but generalisations about the party as a whole as racist and misogynist are simply untrue.
These are just nicer ways of saying misogynist and racist.Sure if you are a racist or a misogynist then you would likely be conservative and by your very nature would support the GOP but that does not mean the party represents those views. Most Americans don't represent those values either.
Correct. That's why most Americans voted for Clinton. The ones that didn't voted for a blatant racist who has been accused of multiple sexual assaults and even rape by his own wife. There is no justification for voting for a guy like that.0 -
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RandomName2 wrote: »
I agree with your post on many points, but I think that these movements became more divisive than useful. BLM didn't protest police brutality, or the heavy hand of the state, or legal injustice, it focused, *exclusively* on black people suffering injustice. Even the name of the movement makes it sound as if non-people of color don't matter. That's a real way to bring communities together.
Metoo is the same idea. It is exclusively aimed at men, and almost exclusively by women. It has narrowed the definition of who can be victim whilst simultaneously widening the scope of what is considered sexual assault.
These movemnets identify the symptoms and not the causes. The cause is power without accountability, not racism and sexism. While blacks were predominantly the victims of police manslaughter, and women predominantly the victims of sexual assault in business/ corporate world, these were incidental in terms of this being reflective of the relative allocation of power. Saying that cops in the US are racist, or men in America are sexist, does not help in curing the underlying issues in relation to this power gap.[/quotassàRemember people no matter how you protest it will be the wrong way.
A successful metoo campaign would also make it easier for male victims of sexual assault to come forward.
Heavier accountability for police would make it harder for bad cops to mistreat white people as well.
And maybe, just maybe dismissing these causes on relatively minor details while half of republicans would be happy to put a rapist on the supreme court and the president is all too happy to make fun of sexual assault victims might be counter productive to getting those power structures gone.
Surely they are a natural consequence of both campaigns, if the problems were as prevalent for men and people in the white community, why then has there been zero motivation to tackle these issues en masse from members of these demographics ?0
This discussion has been closed.
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