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US Presidential Election 2020

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    #6782
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,113 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    I'd be interested to know if trump et al believed Biden *was* on performance enhancing drugs last night, if he had an ear piece too?


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    #6783
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    What's laughable is referring to them as white supremacists.

    Then why did Trump bring them up when asked about condemning white nationalists?


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    #6784
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,628 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    So from a brief glance at Twitter it seems the debate was a mess and many people saying don’t bother with the others. I see trump wouldn’t shut up and it became a shouting match. Glad I couldn’t stay up and watch it but I’ll be able to hear a summary later today from an MSNBC podcast.


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    #6785
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,216 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    everlast75 wrote: »
    I'd be interested to know if trump et al believed Biden *was* on performance enhancing drugs last night, if he had an ear piece too?
    Do I think they believed that...no not at all.

    Do I think they tried to muddy the waters by spreading a rumour by seeding it with the usual biased tits (e.g. a "journalist" from breitbart) etc...100%.

    Did anyone but his base fall for it? Nope imo, the fact Biden openly mocked it himself helped.


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    #6786
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,628 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    It seems trump was given a lay up to denounce white supremacy and throw a brick at that question. How do you not denounce white supremacy in a presidential debate ? It seems there is equal parts annoyance and pity for Chris Wallace the Moderator.


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    #6787
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    It seems trump was given a lay up to denounce white supremacy and throw a brick at that question. How do you not denounce white supremacy in a presidential debate ? It seems there is equal parts annoyance and pity for Chris Wallace the Moderator.

    Genuinely dont think anyone could moderate Trump as he was tonight. I mean, how do you when you halt the speaker with the floor, to tell the other one that they must stop interrupting as they agreed that they wouldn't, and 6 seconds later they are doing it again.


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    #6788
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Surprised to see nobody claiming Biden is on performance enhancing drugs yet...


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    #6789
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Surprised to see nobody claiming Biden is on performance enhancing drugs yet...


    The daily emails with instructions of what points to argue about and how to deflect haven't gone out yet im guessing.


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    #6790
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Doubtless, the narrative built will be that Biden was rattled; the classic Sealion defence where Trump badgered, shouted and behaved in a manner unbecoming of a grown adult in his 70s - let alone a President - but the one or two moments of Biden snapping back will be zeroed in as a flaw. Ye gods but that was a horror show. Even 2016 Trump against Clinton managed something resembling a debating style. Last night was an unhinged tantrum.

    The debate went about as well as anyone could expect. Opinions were never going to be swayed at this stage so all that can be read is how much Sunk Cost has gripped certain individuals. An insistence upon Trump as a winner, or panacea to American politics, as opposed to the impatient, brattish individual he clearly demonstrated himself as. Watching a Fox anchor - Fox for goodness sake - plead with the President to stop behaving like a hysterical teen is itself instructive. The great dealmaker? Well I suppose Trump might be, if throwing a fit 'til the other side gives in through exasperation can be construed a tactic. A 74 year old man screaming and shouting in a total strop; it's kind of pathetic.


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    #6791
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    everlast75 wrote: »
    "Will you shut up man?"

    Do you think Trump has EVER had that said to him?

    That was good for the soul.
    I'm somewhat amazed by the amount of media organisations today taking this as a failure for Biden. They're characterising it as Biden losing his cool, demeaning himself, "ruining democracy".

    We know from debates with Clinton, that she maintained her composure, stuck to the policy points, and it won her no favours.

    There's the old joke about wrestling a pig in the mud; but at the same time if someone is rolling in mud and flinging it in your face while you stand there and try to talk sense to them, then you look like a fool.

    Your average American doesn't want a boring political debate discussing policy. They want a mudfight.

    Telling Trump to shut up on the public stage is what half the planet have wanted someone to do for four years. Calling him a racist and a liar. The last four years has been constant pearl-clutching; media and politicians saying, "Yes, we know that what Trump is, but it's not polite to say it. It's beneath us to get down to his level".

    Biden had the balls last night to say it, and I think it'll do a lot more for his support than the media think.


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    #6792
    TexasTornado
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 285 ✭✭TexasTornado


    As an American the "debate" made me sad tbh. It really goes to show how far we have fallen over the years in terms of intelligent articulate politicians. Both men are an utter embarrassment.


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    #6793
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 20,956 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    TexasTornado wrote: »
    As an American the "debate" made me sad tbh. It really goes to show how far we have fallen over the years in terms of intelligent articulate politicians. Both men are an utter embarrassment.

    Both men? Trump refused to follow the rules and you're blaming both of them!

    they/them/theirs


    And so on, and so on …. - Slavoj Žižek




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    #6794
    5GMadeMeDoIt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭5GMadeMeDoIt


    Brian? wrote: »
    Both men? Trump refused to follow the rules and you're blaming both of them!

    I'm not sure if Texas Tornado is a Trump fan or not, but I have seen Trump fans start to say things like 'well they're just as bad as each other', 'Trump may be bad but Biden is just as bad' etc.

    It may possibly be a sign that the revisionism is beginning and the sinking ship is starting to be deserted. Maybe. I can but hope.


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    #6795
    Tell me how
    Registered Users Posts: 21,520 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    TexasTornado wrote: »
    As an American the "debate" made me sad tbh. It really goes to show how far we have fallen over the years in terms of intelligent articulate politicians. Both men are an utter embarrassment.

    I wouldn't say he is the best Politician ever, but in what way is Biden an embarrassment?


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    #6796
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    pixelburp wrote: »
    The debate went about as well as anyone could expect. Opinions were never going to be swayed at this stage so all that can be read is how much Sunk Cost has gripped certain individuals.

    Yup, Trump needed a dramatic win, and he didn't get it. Biden didn't die and was relatively cogent. That was the best we could have hoped for.


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    #6797
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Question, if Trump does flake and skip the next 2 debates will Biden have the chance to just sit and chat for 3 hours uninterrupted to the nation?


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    #6798
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    I don't think Trump will have to flake, they have grounds now for just cancelling them and I don't think anyone would object - which is great for Biden.


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    #6799
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,113 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    5GMadeMeDoIt wrote: »
    I'm not sure if Texas Tornado is a Trump fan or not, but I have seen Trump fans start to say things like 'well they're just as bad as each other', 'Trump may be bad but Biden is just as bad' etc.

    It may possibly be a sign that the revisionism is beginning and the sinking ship is starting to be deserted. Maybe. I can but hope.

    It can also be a ploy to add credibility to the criticism of the Dem Candidate. Another version is "I'm no fan of Trump, but...."


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    #6800
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    droidus wrote: »
    I don't think Trump will have to flake, they have grounds now for just cancelling them and I don't think anyone would object - which is great for Biden.


    How do they have grounds for canceling them?


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    #6801
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,168 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Well to start with the fact that Trump flatly and persistently refused to abide by the rules, and even by the instructions of the moderator.

    As an aside he sounded absolutely childish doing his 'well tell him too' stunt, little boy answering back to his ma!


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    #6802
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,162 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Certainly they'll have to look at methods of controlling Trump. It looks bad for the Election Commission if they cannot run a cogent debate.
    Not sure what structure they'll use but Biden's side will be looking for a different approach.

    It was classic Trump and sad anyone would vote for him.


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    #6803
    5GMadeMeDoIt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭5GMadeMeDoIt


    I wonder if there will be an attempt made to regulate the debates more strictly now. Set time limits strictly adhered to, and microphones switched off when it's not your turn to speak. Would be a disaster for Trump but I don't think anyone outside of his camp would object now after that dumpster fire.


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    #6804
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,742 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    I dont think it will do Biden any favours if they look to cancel them, it just gives the orange one the chance to claim bidens scared to debate him.


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    #6805
    TexasTornado
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 285 ✭✭TexasTornado


    Brian? wrote: »
    Both men? Trump refused to follow the rules and you're blaming both of them!

    Joe lowering himself to Trump's level was pathetic. All he had to do was let Trump make a fool of himself by talking and he couldn't even do that. I'm a lifelong democrat and honestly he's the weakest candidate we've ever put forward.

    I'm worried for the very future of the party if Joe can't defeat someone like Trump.


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    #6806
    5GMadeMeDoIt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭5GMadeMeDoIt


    TexasTornado wrote: »
    Joe lowering himself to Trump's level was pathetic. All he had to do was let Trump make a fool of himself by talking and he couldn't even do that. I'm a lifelong democrat and honestly he's the weakest candidate we've ever put forward.

    I'm worried for the very future of the party if Joe can't defeat someone like Trump.

    Prepared to not be worried then.


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    #6807
    pixelburp
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 35,941 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    TexasTornado wrote: »
    Joe lowering himself to Trump's level was pathetic. All he had to do was let Trump make a fool of himself by talking and he couldn't even do that. I'm a lifelong democrat and honestly he's the weakest candidate we've ever put forward.

    I'm worried for the very future of the party if Joe can't defeat someone like Trump.

    That a hyperbolic reaction to a moment of exhausted humanity from Biden, and he wasn't alone. I presume you also saw Chris Wallace of Fox getting utterly exasperated with Trump's constant interupptions and belligerance. At least in 2016 Trump maintained some semblance of restraint and behaviour within the format (just about, it wasn't great then either). Here Trump was off the chain and even Wallace had to step in and get legitimately annoyed. Applying a Purity Test to Biden is only going to feed the beast here, and damning the VP for a single moment of (presumably) anger can't be held against him given the opponent.

    Chris Wallace was about as close of an ally as Trump is going to get across this season of debates; if they go ahead with further ones - and they really should if nothing else than the pretence of electoral due dilligence - then other moderators are going ot be ready for his further petulant outbursts.

    I don't like Biden as a candidate, and would agree he is the weaket one put forward from a stable that already underwhelmed; but the stakes are too high at the moment to quibble that Biden isn't electoral perfection. He merely needs to be good enough - and we know Biden isn't beyond moments of honesty.


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    #6808
    everlast75
    Registered Users Posts: 19,113 ✭✭✭✭everlast75


    TexasTornado wrote: »
    As an American the "debate" made me sad tbh. It really goes to show how far we have fallen over the years in terms of intelligent articulate politicians. Both men are an utter embarrassment.

    Obama was in power four years ago. Was he not an intelligent, articulate politician?


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    #6809
    droidus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭droidus


    VinLieger wrote: »
    How do they have grounds for canceling them?

    The across the board consensus was that it was an embarrassing waste of time. If the Biden campaign said that Trump has shown he cant conduct himself properly in a debate and therefore they were pulling out (or some other excuse) I think the general feeling would be relief.


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    #6810
    breezy1985
    Registered Users Posts: 24,683 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Tell me how wrote: »
    I wouldn't say he is the best Politician ever, but in what way is Biden an embarrassment?

    He's not Trump and that's all that matters to Trump apologists. Any candidate the Dems run would be an embarrassment, a socialist and a threat to national security


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    #6811
    5GMadeMeDoIt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37 ✭5GMadeMeDoIt


    It seems like Trump was urged to attack Hunter Biden over his drug issues. If I was to guess I would say it was at the behest of Donald Jnr. I wonder how that will have played out in the rust belt mid-west states where there's an opiate epidemic. I'd say a lot of mothers and fathers would have empathized with Biden over that.


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