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Sweet Baby Jesus.

  • 11-07-2018 9:23am
    #1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    We [the shooting community] are all the time under the microscope of both public opinion and the scrutiny of An Gardaí.

    We have some of the strictest laws in the Europe if not the world in terms of firearm ownership, storage, security and accountability.

    Seems AGS don't.

    This is the 6th, iirc, incident in the last few years of an AGS firearm being used used inappropriately, to harm oneself or lost.

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«134

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭ Gorgeousgeorge


    haha madness


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭ Half-cocked


    A few red faces over this one. Will the member of the public who handed it in be prosecuted for unlawful possession?;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 182 ✭✭ p28559


    GUBU...........


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭ Walter Mittys Brother


    Hopefully the person handing it in won't be charged with unlawful possession of a sub machine gun...............................


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    A loaded MP7.
    A category A fully-automatic firearm.
    "Fell out of the boot of the car".


    ....


    455520.jpeg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Well the best thing about this is we can use this for any smug"Only qualified and trained police or military should have access to semi full auto weapons or handguns!" comments.https://i1.wp.com/cdn.makeagif.com/media/8-20-2015/q5ogpL.gif

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    So according to an article in the Indo AGS noticed the boot was open, immediately spotted the bag and contents had fallen out, but were unable to "turn the car in traffic" before a woman picked it up and "made off" with it.

    Begs the questions:
    1. Did the blue flashy things on the roof of the car not work where they could just stop?
    2. Was there no sense of urgency to recover the bag that they chose to drive around to get it instead of stopping the car and walking back to it (they say they saw the woman pick it up)
    3. Was there no one outside the station that noticed the bag falling out?
    Its seems a CYA exercise instead of just putting their hands up and saying ""We fecked up". I mean in all honesty, calling in Audi technicians to examine the boot for faults. Jesus wept. Blame anything or anyone bar the person at fault.

    If you were of the trusting nature and made allowances the some of all of what they say is true it still highlights some faults.
    1. A firearm and ammo, TOGETHER, in a bag, in the boot.
    2. Incompetence of the members to recover it before a lady ON FOOT "made off" with it.
    3. Failure in procedures to secure it before leaving/setting off.

    They will point to legally held firearm owners and punish us for the actions of criminals (the pistol ban of 2008, the restricted SI, CS Healy's words on "stolen guns", etc) yet in the half dozen instances of firearm related foolery, incompetence, suicide, etc. its been a Garda involved in each case.

    Some of you might think it's sticking the boot in, well perhaps it is to an extent, but whenever the opportunity arises for DoJ/AGS to do the same to us (except their version usually involves a ban of some sort) they don't hesitate citing "public safety".

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Vegeta


    Sun's out guns out for those Garda I suppose :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭ Half-cocked


    Cass wrote: »
    I mean in all honesty, calling in Audi technicians to examine the boot for faults. Jesus wept. Blame anything or anyone bar the person at fault.

    [/COLOR][/U][/B]".


    I wonder, if the same thing happened to the owner of a licensed firearm and their gun hopped out of the boot and was picked up and handed in by Joe Public, would AGS accept the excuse that the owner got his/her mechanic to check the boot lock and it was faulty, so give me back my gun please.....


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    BTW those Audi boots dont just open.They are automated open and closing by touch and hydraulic struts..Nor are they very fast either, and light up the whole dash with all sorts of warnings and advisories to the fact.
    So unless you are brain dead,there is no way to not know your boot is open or opening.

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Really lucky the gun was found by someone with decency to hand it in. I work in that area and its skanger central, it could just as easily have been found by anto or deco o'hooligan, and found its way into the hands of the warring factions. I was looking at one of those arv's in Ranelagh a month or so ago the officers had the mp's slung around their necks, and the glocks or h&k's or whatever securely in their leg holsters. Really surprised at this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    BTW those Audi boots dont just open.They are automated open and closing by touch and hydraulic struts..Nor are they very fast either, and light up the whole dash with all sorts of warnings and advisories to the fact.
    So unless you are brain dead,there is no way to not know your boot is open or opening.

    "Engineers from Audi have been called in to examine the closing mechanism on the Audi A6"

    Even if it was broken, it was their responsibility to make sure the car was secure and the boot closed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Either which way someone has a right, and well deserved, bollocking out in front of someone's desk in their immediate futures.
    Bad enough you lose the gun, but the gun and the ammo in one bag...!Seriously, we are preached to, and have conditions on our licenses to transport our guns and ammo separately, and to store the items separately at home..yet these experts go and do the exact opposite...

    Someone less scrupulous would be having a quids in party tonight after that lucky windfall on their lap after putting out the word that there was a Heckler and ammo for sale on the streets. Black market price for that would be a cool 30to40k CASH!

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭ Panjandrums


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,104 ✭✭✭✭ Nekarsulm


    This post has been deleted.

    And yet this was considered a valid reason to restrict firearms availability to the public by no less a person than an elected member of Dail Eireann, who was also a member of the Oireachtas Justice, Defence and Equality Committee, in an RTE report recently.

    Also, regarding this latest event, the Gardaí are on record (at a hearing of the Oireachtas Justice Committee on December 17th, 2014) as saying "Firearms designed for use for military and police purposes and currently licensable within the State pose a potentially devastating and lethal risk to the community"

    Physician heal thyself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,332 ✭✭✭✭ Grizzly 45


    Guess the AGS supporters have arrived lads..:rolleyes:
    Tough Titty,AGS has an appaling record of firearms handling safety,and even shooting their own [Garda John Effe https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/garda-died-in-friendly-fire-court-hears-26031159.html ] to be now getting preachy to anyone. Least of all Irish gun owners.How the Hell do you leave a retired officer with armoury keys for over a MONTH after retirement,so he can draw a full auto UZI and end it all down in the station Gents toilet? Good job he didn't fancy a Mc Donalds first...Any other police force in the World,on retirement day, the first thing you hand in is your service arm and shield to prevent this very thing happening...

    Confucius say."He who says one man cannot change World. Never has eaten bat soup in Wuhan!"



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    Panjandrums, the highly specific topic of the security of firearms in a vehicle in regard to civilian firearms has been raised by the Gardai with themselves held up as examples of how it's done right on a few occasions, so yes, we're very critical and with very good reason.

    And even if we hadn't been on the pointy end of that one, this was a fully automatic firearm and ammunition, dropped on a street in a rough enough part of town. According to the Gardai, the only reason we're not facing potential murders committed with this firearms is that someone was civic-minded. So bluntly, if you're not being critical yourself, you're not paying enough respect to firearms safety here, or you don't fully understand the severity of this incident.

    As to suicide, quite a few of us have heard in public official statements by Gardai that we should not have firearms as civilians because it put us at risk of suicide, hence the comment. Yes, it's unpleasant to hear, and had names been mentioned as having been at fault it would have been inappropriate, but because of those public official statements, discussing the topic in generic terms is not inappropriate.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    This post has been deleted.
    So if the weapon, and in this instance its a weapon, was found by a youngster, criminal, or any variation of scum bag and used to shoot up some house, estate, school, etc. would you be as forgiving?

    The excuse of "it wasn't" [used for that purpose] does not negate the seriousness of what happened. AGS are supposed to be highly trained. They hold legal firearm owners to a higher standard than the rest of society then it stands to reason that those "highly trained" AGS members should be higher again considering the nature of their work.

    i've never lost or left a gun behind. I've never dropped one out of my car, and if i did, as a user above said, it'd bye bye to all my firearms.
    Cass, your comment on the Gardai who use their weapons to commit suicide is distasteful and you should be ashamed of yourself.
    Spare me your plastic moral outrage. Its a self serving mechanism to alleviate your concerns you might not be a good person and a shameless attempt to avoid a frank discussion on the topic.

    Secondly it's a fact, and if you want to dismiss facts for the sake of "decency" when no such allowance is reciprocated then its not a platform for debate you need, but a soap box.

    The senseless murder of Shane Geoghegan in 2008 by a criminal with an illegal firearm caused the banning of every similar firearms from that point on. Legal firearm owners had nothing to do with it, no involvement in it, and no knowledge of of prior to it happening yet we were lumped into the same group as the scum that committed the murder because AGS saw it as an opportunity to advance an agenda.

    So before your "moral outrage" gets the better of you again perhaps you want to consider how AGS dishonor the memory of innocent victims for their own sake.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


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  • Registered Users Posts: 389 ✭✭ Panjandrums


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭ ganmo


    How can I be critical of an incident when the facts have yet to be established fully.

    You can work on the basics. A Garda left /lost a gun in public and a member of the public handed it in


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,104 ✭✭✭✭ Nekarsulm


    This post has been deleted.

    What odds would I get on the gun, complete with bag and ammo, being placed on the roof while loading up the car?
    Then somehow tailgate is closed and officers hop in and drive off.

    Hear a noise on the roof as the bag slides off, and seconds later the sickening realisation hits "Fvck, I left the bag on the roof"

    I left my wallet, the newspaper and a paperback on the car roof last month, while unlocking the car.
    100 yards up the road something in the mirror caught my eye, only then did I realise and have to go back.
    Ive even seen a man driving past with a burger and bag of chips on the roof of his car.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,632 ✭✭✭ gunny123


    This post has been deleted.

    Cobblers, the gardai tried every trick in the book to rid us of pistols, as has been said the horrible murder of shane geoghan by a pure scumbag was laid at our door, even though we are whiter than white, or we would not have been granted a licence in the first place.

    The gardai also came out with the bizarre claim we would all be offing ourselves with centrefire pistols if we were allowed to keep them. I know two firearms licence holders who committed suicide, neither used a firearm.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    This post has been deleted.
    I am not discussing the causes, i'm discussing the consequences which in the short term is of more importance.

    The FACTS so far are AGS dropped a fully automatic weapon and ammunition from their care and failed to recover it. None of that is in dispute. AGS have released a statement saying exactly this. Given they knew what was in the bag i fail to understand why they did not hit the brakes, jump out of the motor and run back to retrieve the bag. IOW do everything possible.

    The causes which led to this are yet to be investigated and so far we only have the official press release which will NEVER say "we fecked up, sorry". The risk AGS run is when they hold firearm owners to such a high standard which, as Sparks mentioned above, includes recommending that we [the shooting community] mirror the professionalism and conscientious behaviour of AGS is that when they mess up in a way the shooting community does not they are held to account as we would be.

    As for this:
    Describing suicide by Gardai using their weapon as "firearm foolery" is inappropriate."
    Don't bastaridze my words and if you don't understand something, ask. I said:
    Cass wrote:
    .................yet in the half dozen instances of firearm related foolery, incompetence, suicide, etc.
    Note the comma after each word to indicate a new topic/cause.

    In case you don't know when i refer to foolery i mean this, when i refer to incompetence i mean this, and when i refer to suicide i mean this.

    Once again i draw your attention to the moral outrage at only one specific point in all i wrote. Not once have you made a valid or logical point in rebuttal preferring instead to rely on "won't someone think of the children" argument which holds no weight with me.

    If you point to anything i said, show how i'm wrong or how you believe i'm wrong with facts and/or stats then i'm more than happy to listen and discuss. I'm also as happy to admit i'm wrong if shown i am. I won't however be pulled into a defensive position on one single point in everything i wrote because of your perceived outrage that has no basis other than ability to generate "likes".

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    This post has been deleted.
    Thanks.
    I edited my post an hour previous to your response.
    No, that is another bastardisation of what actually happened. You ninja edited it. As in you edited it immediately after posting it so the edit wouldn't appear, but i still get the notification of the full reply.
    I had to reread what you said as I didn't think you would be that disrespectful.
    Ah name calling. The recourse of a weak mind.

    Do me a favour give me one, just one, rebuttal to anything i've said based in fact and not emotive name calling and i'll consider taking you seriously. Otherwise you and your "Facebook" moral outrage is nothing more than a time sink and an insult to proper and constructive debate.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    @ Panjandrums - DO NOT start PM-ing me.

    IF you have something to say, say it on thread where the discussion is. As i've said three times now if you insist on calling me names, making derogatory remarks and bastardising what i say then have the courage of your convictions and state it on thread. I will not reply to PMs trying to continue this debate in private.

    I made no insult towards any Garda, least of all one that committed suicide. I pointed out the FACT that there is an alarmingly high rate of suicide among AGS. As this is not the personal issues forum or even close to the appropriate forum to discuss the causes of this i have not done so, however that will not stop me from mentioning the fact that AGS said pistol owners were at higher risk of suicide because they had access to handguns. There is, and remains, no proof to support this and pointing out that of the last few suicides involving a handgun were actually committed by members of AGS is not an insult. It is, again, a FACT (albeit a tragic one)

    You seem to be confusing my criticism of AGS with a personal attack. Its not. I'm a firm supporter of the men and women that serve, but i do take issue with the upper echelon and the policies they have set over the years most of which i'm assuming you have no concept about [i highly doubt you're a firearm owner]. I can make the distinction between a personal attack and a professional criticism, but it seems you are unable to fathom that difference.

    If you read my remarks, ALL OF THEM, as anything other than a statement of fact then you are seeking to find insult were none exists in a bid to continue to play the emotive card due to a lacking counter argument.

    Lastly deleting your posts from the thread is not a sign of respect. Its a continuation of the fake moral outrage you are trying to show, coupled with your inability to form a coherent reply. The reason you are failing is there is nothing to be outraged about. No one else has taken my statement of fact as a personal criticism about anyone involved. No one else has taken issue with that one point in all of what i've said, that you find so abhorrent, as it's simply another fact.

    So as i said above it's a a self serving exercise, you initiated. As of now, i'm done with you.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,534 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Cass


    Nekarsulm wrote: »
    Hear a noise on the roof as the bag slides off, and seconds later the sickening realisation hits "Fvck, I left the bag on the roof"

    It still stumps me as to why they did not stop the car when they realised it was on the road, and WALK back to get it. They say in their statement they saw a woman pick the bag up which means they were still close enough to it, but instead chose to drive around and because of traffic delays did not make i back around in time.

    Just get out of the car, walk back, retrieve the bag. How hard is that?

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - RFDs - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads


    If you see a problem post use the report post function, "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.


    Your Shooting Forum Moderators - Cass, Cookimonster, Vegeta, Sparks, It wasn't me!



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭ Half-cocked


    Cass wrote: »
    and WALK back to get it.

    Too many donuts?;)


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,084 ✭✭✭✭ ED E


    Cass wrote: »
    It still stumps me as to why they did not stop the car when they realised it was on the road, and WALK back to get it. They say in their statement they saw a woman pick the bag up which means they were still close enough to it, but instead chose to drive around and because of traffic delays did not make i back around in time.

    Just get out of the car, walk back, retrieve the bag. How hard is that?

    You know, I know, the dog on the street knows - they didn't cop till much later that it was gone.


    No doubt the cars dashcam footage won't be found when GSOC go looking.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 40,053 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Sparks


    Mentioned in the Dail yesterday, though no answers were forthcoming:
    Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
    ...
    Finally, the Taoiseach mentioned the issue of community safety and extra gardaí. We were a little bit disquieted when a fully loaded Garda submachine gun was found in the north inner city yesterday. It is not clear how it came to be found or lost but I understand it was handed in to Store Street Garda station. Does the Taoiseach have any information on how that came about?

    Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)

    I wish to start with that issue. It was quite bizarre, and it was lucky happenstance that the person who came across the loaded Garda submachine gun was a responsible citizen who brought it to Store Street Garda station. Does the Taoiseach have any information that would be of some assistance on that, even an initial assessment?

    No answer given.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 315 ✭✭ Walter Mittys Brother


    ED E wrote: »
    No doubt the cars dashcam footage won't be found when GSOC go looking.

    That won't happen sure they never lost a load of mobile phones before.


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