Formula 1 2018 - Round 10 – Silverstone

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

The wife of a fella that is almost double the age of other drivers and he is whipping their asses

It's a long time since Kimi has whipped anyone to be fair, he's long passed his sell by date. Not that I wouldn't love to see him getting another win or two before he retires, but he's about as #2 driver as you can get nowadays. He's made a good few mistakes lately too.

BikeRacer

vectra wrote: »

The wife of a fella that is almost double the age of other drivers and he is whipping their asses

Whipping their asses? He should be fighting for the championship himself in that car but is so far off the pace of Seb it's laughable.

vectra

Inviere wrote: »

It's a long time since Kimi has whipped anyone to be fair, he's long passed his sell by date. Not that I wouldn't love to see him getting another win or two before he retires, but he's about as #2 driver as you can get nowadays. He's made a good few mistakes lately too.

BikeRacer wrote: »

Whipping their asses? He should be fighting for the championship himself in that car but is so far off the pace of Seb it's laughable.

Fantastic observation guys.
Can you explain how he is running third in the wdc then?

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

Fantastic observation guys.
Can you explain how he is running third in the wdc then?

Because he's driving the best car on the grid, and is a whopping 55 points off his teammate in an identical car.

meeeeh

vectra wrote: »

Fantastic observation guys.
Can you explain how he is running third in the wdc then?

Lucky. Bottas had loads of hard luck, Red Bulls had various other issues. The problem is that Bottas will be there to force Ferrari strategy while Merc have to keep an eye on Vettel and two Red Bulls and don't overly need to worry about Kimi. I think Ferrari need better second driver to affect Merc strategy.

vectra

Inviere wrote: »

Because he's driving the best car on the grid, and is a whopping 55 points off his teammate in an identical car.

while only being 47 points off the *best* driver on the grid.

Kimi also had a retirement
also had a swap place.

Consider those.

Not jumping on any bandwagon or coming to Kimi's defence, But I seriously think it is just wrong to write him off just yet.
Give Vettel a dnf and a swap about and he wouldnt be that far behind, Judging the way this season is going Kimi is still in with a mathematical chance of winning.
And as for driving the best car on the grid??
That is highly debatable.
Which Ferrari driver has gotten the upgraded Power unit??
I will give you a hint. ( Not Kimi )
So you are also saying the Ferrari is a superior car to the Merc???

Inviere

vectra wrote: »

while only being 47 points off the *best* driver on the grid.

Kimi also had a retirement
also had a swap place.

Consider those.

I feel many of the other drivers on the grid would be higher up in the points, if in Kimi's seat. A DNF & a swapped place don't equate to a 55 point gap. He knows it himself, and the things he says, he just hasn't got that edge anymore. And to be fair to him, he's 39!

And as for driving the best car on the grid??
That is highly debatable.
Which Ferrari driver has gotten the upgraded Power unit??
I will give you a hint. ( Not Kimi )
So you are also saying the Ferrari is a superior car to the Merc???

I feel the Ferrari is slightly ahead this year. It's equal if not better in the power department, is far kinder on its tires than Merc & Red Bull are, and seems to be a more driveable car than the Merc, which is weaker on particular tracks (the Ferrari is good everywhere).

Joeface

Speaking of Kimi , He said an odd thing in the post race interview . He said the hardest car to follow was the Redbull something like he had no aero behind them or to that affect. thats 2 things , they can follow everyone else of an over take , and what the hell are redbull doing .

Inviere

Joeface wrote: »

and what the hell are redbull doing .

They're absolute wizards in that team. Imagine that car with a Ferrari or Mercedes power train, they'd be unstoppable.

Joeface

its amazing the gap between Redbull to Renault and even Renault to Mclaren with the same engine . It does show what difference a chassis can make when done properly .

ELM327

Inviere wrote: »

Are you saying the 2013 Mercedes was the most dominant car on the grid?
Are you saying the 2012 McLaren was the most dominant car on the grid?
Are you saying the 2011 McLaren was the most dominant car on the grid?
Are you saying the 2010 McLaren was the most dominant car on the grid?
Are you saying the 2009 McLaren was the most dominant car on the grid?

Or are you forgetting there's often context to every win

Lewis has absolutely won races in an inferior car, every bit the same as the drivers you mention above.

Triggered much?
He never won the title in a less than the best car. All the greats have done this. Schumacher. Senna.

rock22

Inviere wrote: »

I feel many of the other drivers on the grid would be higher up in the points, if in Kimi's seat. A DNF & a swapped place don't equate to a 55 point gap. He knows it himself, and the things he says, he just hasn't got that edge anymore. And to be fair to him, he's 39!



I feel the Ferrari is slightly ahead this year. It's equal if not better in the power department, is far kinder on its tires than Merc & Red Bull are, and seems to be a more driveable car than the Merc, which is weaker on particular tracks (the Ferrari is good everywhere).

Who would be higher up in the points?

Even Ferrari don't think they are the best car.

Harika

rock22 wrote: »

Who would be higher up in the points?

Even Ferrari don't think they are the best car.

Might be a tactic, still I think Mercedes and Ferrari are on one level and only small issues make a difference. Red Bull is missing horsepower, else it would be right there.

BikeRacer

vectra wrote: »

Fantastic observation guys.
Can you explain how he is running third in the wdc then?

It's his 5th year at Ferrari. In those 5 years the difference between him and his teammate is 427 points. And rising.

skipper_G

rock22 wrote: »

Who would be higher up in the points?

Even Ferrari don't think they are the best car.

Plenty of drivers who are more consistent from session to session would have more points than Kimi with that car. You could throw a rock down the pitlane and find a better number 2. I'd comfortably say Perez, Ocon, KMag, Hulk, Sainz, Leclerc. One could make a case for Gasly & Vandoorne but jury is still out for me

ELM327

skipper_G wrote: »

Plenty of drivers who are more consistent from session to session would have more points than Kimi with that car. You could throw a rock down the pitlane and find a better number 2. I'd comfortably say Perez, Ocon, KMag, Hulk, Sainz, Leclerc. One could make a case for Gasly & Vandoorne but jury is still out for me

Perez, Magnussen, Sainz, Vandoorne are all mediocre drivers at best.
Gasly has shown some promise, same for ocon, hulkenberg and leclerc


Kimi is a former WDC.

meeeeh

skipper_G wrote: »

Plenty of drivers who are more consistent from session to session would have more points than Kimi with that car. You could throw a rock down the pitlane and find a better number 2. I'd comfortably say Perez, Ocon, KMag, Hulk, Sainz, Leclerc. One could make a case for Gasly & Vandoorne but jury is still out for me

While I do believe Kimi is in F1 only because he hasn't figured out what else to do, as Ferrari fan I would think employing Perez, Ocon, Sainz, KMag, Vandoorne would be a step down. Vandoorne for Christ sake, they are not desperate like McLaren. I could take Hulk because of his experience, Leclerc has potential and I am undecided about Gasly.

skipper_G

ELM327 wrote: »

Perez, Magnussen, Sainz, Vandoorne are all mediocre drivers at best.
Gasly has shown some promise, same for ocon, hulkenberg and leclerc


Kimi is a former WDC.

You're only as good as your last race in F1, there's no place for emotional attachment or living on past success. Kimi is hot and cold, one session he's quick and the next he's a tenth or two off the pace. The fact you called Sainz and Magnussen mediocre says more about than it does about the drivers.

ELM327

skipper_G wrote: »

You're only as good as your last race in F1, there's no place for emotional attachment or living on past success. Kimi is hot and cold, one session he's quick and the next he's a tenth or two off the pace. The fact you called Sainz and Magnussen mediocre says more about than it does about the drivers.

Kimi is demonstrably better than any of the drivers listed.
The only drivers better would be Ricciardo, Verstappen, possibly leclerc in future, and seb and loser lou lou.

skipper_G

meeeeh wrote: »

While I do believe Kimi is in F1 only because he hasn't figured out what else to do, as Ferrari fan I would think employing Perez, Ocon, Sainz, KMag, Vandoorne would be a step down. Vandoorne for Christ sake, they are not desperate like McLaren. I could take Hulk because of his experience, Leclerc has potential and I am undecided about Gasly.

Go back and read what I wrote.
I said "One could make a case for Gasly & Vandoorne but jury is still out for me"

I never said I would include Vandoorne as better than Kimi. The point is Kimi is not the best option out there. He hasn't been for some time, for somebody to suggest he could be realistically in the championship fight is frankly bizarre. The best barometer in F1 is your teammate, compared to Vettel in the same car Kimi has won 0 races. Vettel has won 12.

Wanderer78

big companies such as Ferrari dont just throw anyone in their cars, kimi will be moved along when they see fit, hes obviously good enough for them for the moment, but his time is probably coming to an end soon

meeeeh

skipper_G wrote: »

The point is Kimi is not the best option out there. He hasn't been for some time, for somebody to suggest he could be realistically in the championship fight is frankly bizarre. The best barometer in F1 is your teammate, compared to Vettel in the same car Kimi has won 0 races. Vettel has won 12.

He doesn't need to be in championship fight, he needs to be good enough to mess up Merc or Red Bull strategy. I don't think he is doing that so there is time for a change. But I think it was said before that he is good at developing the car and he is hugely experienced. He also works well with Vettel.

There are other factors not just speed why replacing him with Perez or Ocon or most of the names you listed just doesn't make sense. I think half of the success Ferrari had against Merc at the beginning of last season was due to Mercedes missing Rosberg's knowledge setting up the car and his work outside the race day. There is something to be said for a driver who is good at developing cars.

Inviere

ELM327 wrote: »

Triggered much?
He never won the title in a less than the best car. All the greats have done this. Schumacher. Senna.

Lol, triggered. No, just find that same, tired, lazy card that's often thrown around against Hamilton to be so easily refutable. You said he's never won in an inferior car, I called bs & showed evidence to the contrary. You're now shifting the goalposts to include Championships. The Schumacher & Senna era was a completely different time in F1, doubt we'll ever see an 'inferior car' win a championship again, regardless of who's driving it.

rock22 wrote: »

Who would be higher up in the points?

At a guess:

Le Clerc
Perez
Sainz
Alonso
Hulkenberg

Even Ferrari don't think they are the best car.

Not quite sure I believe them. The champagne tastes so much better when you're the 'underdog'.

Jordan 199

OSI wrote: »

Ah come off it. The MP4/4 MP4/5B and MP4/6 are heralded as some of the best engineered and all conquering cars in the history of F1. Schumacher's first title was won with illegal launch control software and by taking out his title rival in the final race and he certainly had the fastest car for the rest of his wins.

It was never proven that the B194 Schumacher drove in 1994 had any illegal software.

ELM327

OSI wrote: »

Ah come off it. The MP4/4 MP4/5B and MP4/6 are heralded as some of the best engineered and all conquering cars in the history of F1. Schumacher's first title was won with illegal launch control software and by taking out his title rival in the final race and he certainly had the fastest car for the rest of his wins.

Schumacher won in 94 with a fully legal car. There was an investigation. That was my first year watching F1.


The first year he won with Ferrari that car was not as good as the mclarens.
By the end of his 5 , yes he had the best car. But not in 2000.

Inviere

OSI wrote: »

That's not true. They did indeed find illegal start sequence (launch control) software, but they couldn't prove it had been used or was usable so dropped the investigation.

Indeed, and regardless, it's a completely moot point. It's been a long long time in F1, since an obviously 'inferior car' took a title. We'll likely never see those days again. When has any of the current drivers on the grid won a championship in a car deemed to be 'inferior'? Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, their cars were all at the very least, top tier...so it's just more unfounded nonsense thrown at Hamilton, while giving the rest a free pass. Pure hypocrisy really.

Harika

Inviere wrote: »

Indeed, and regardless, it's a completely moot point. It's been a long long time in F1, since an obviously 'inferior car' took a title. We'll likely never see those days again. When has any of the current drivers on the grid won a championship in a car deemed to be 'inferior'? Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, their cars were all at the very least, top tier...so it's just more unfounded nonsense thrown at Hamilton, while giving the rest a free pass. Pure hypocrisy really.

I think closest came Kimi in 2012 with the Lotus and Frentzen 1999 in the Jordan.

Inviere

Harika wrote: »

I think closest came Kimi in 2012

Close being relative, he was 74 points off the top by the end. A brilliant result all things considered in that car, but not close to winning the championship. It hasn't been done any time recently, there's too much money involved in it now for a clearly 'inferior' car to stand any chance over the course of a season.

Harika

Inviere wrote: »

Close being relative, he was 74 points off the top by the end. A brilliant result all things considered in that car, but not close to winning the championship. It hasn't been done any time recently, there's too much money involved in it now for a clearly 'inferior' car to stand any chance over the course of a season.

Then really with an inferior car, maybe Piquet in 1981/83 or Rosberg 1982

meeeeh

OSI wrote: »

Their year together in Formula 3 with the same engine and chassis suggested different:

It's nonsense to draw any conclusions from that list. According to that list Sutil and Di Grassi would also be better. Vettel is also a bit younger than Hamilton and at that stage age does matter.