Brexit discussion thread IV

Leroy42

Leaks of the White paper according to the Express

1) A commitment to a “single standards model” for goods which would Britain from adopting any competing national standards, which critics fear will jeopardise any future trade deal with the United States.
Theresa MayGETTY

2) A legal agreement to “ongoing harmonisation with the EU, including agrifoods”.

3) A “common rulebook” with the EU for all goods.

4) A pledge that British courts will follow European Court of Justice rulings “where relevant”.

A leaked extract reads: “We would make a continued commitment to the single standards model for goods so that where there is an agreed European harmonised standard, the UK could not put forward any competing national standards.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/984876/brexit-white-paper-chequers-theresa-may-brexit-news-what-is-in-the-white-paper

Enzokk

Leroy42 wrote: »

Leaks of the White paper according to the Express

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/984876/brexit-white-paper-chequers-theresa-may-brexit-news-what-is-in-the-white-paper

Which begs the question, how will Theresa May uphold her PMQs statements of the UK leaving the single market, the customs union and the UK being able to make their own trade deals?

ancapailldorcha

Enzokk wrote: »

Which begs the question, how will Theresa May uphold her PMQs statements of the UK leaving the single market, the customs union and the UK being able to make their own trade deals?

PMQ's is a farce. She will have much bigger problems to contend with given that the costly Tory party unity is about to be sundered.

Nody

Leroy42 wrote: »

Leaks of the White paper according to the Express

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/984876/brexit-white-paper-chequers-theresa-may-brexit-news-what-is-in-the-white-paper

Let me sum up EU's response based on the feedback which has been given for the last two years (I'm guessing EU is at this stage running out of ways to say no since UK simply don't appear to hear it and hence has retorted to pictures instead to put it at a level the UK government might get it)...



1) Breach of the four rights (only goods)
2) Breach of governance (UK following only if they see it fit)
3) Breach of customs handling (no third party to handle EU customs)

I mean seriously; why bust a nut over such a non go proposal in the first place?

Leroy42

Enzokk wrote: »

Which begs the question, how will Theresa May uphold her PMQs statements of the UK leaving the single market, the customs union and the UK being able to make their own trade deals?

It is very strange. She knew what this white paper consisted off at the time, yet gave such a definitive statement anyway. Why not stick to "Brexit means Brexit" for another few days.

It shows that at least someone in the government has finally grasped the seriousness of the situation. Read a tweet earlier basically saying that the Brexiteers have no option but to accept as everything points to Brexit being a disaster, they have spent the last 4 years talking in hopes and wants and sovereign this and control that, but now they are faced with an actual decision, with actual facts of what, in real practical terms, it actually means.

But will it make any difference? No, the EU is not going to give up on FoM or allow the UK to cherry pick on services.

So now that she has moved this far, does she have the gumption to move all the way back. There is no practical argument for the Norway model. On its own its ok, but going to that from full membership is crazy, it keeps all the things they don't like and removes the things they do!

She should call the Brexiteers bluff. It is this, and if rejected cancel A50. The only other option is hard Brexit which goes against the GFA and as such should be put to vote by the public.

joeysoap

If accepted wouldn’t Switzerland and Norway look for the same? In fact wouldn’t a few others think ‘ that’s not bad’. Maybe we should leave and look for the same deal.

It’s better than I thought but obviously slanted in favour of a ‘business as usual’ but we’re still out.

An Ciarraioch

Peston offers his take on events, without actually telling us anything new:

https://facebook.com/1498276767163730/posts/2096472700677464/

Nody

joeysoap wrote: »

If accepted wouldn’t Switzerland and Norway look for the same? In fact wouldn’t a few others think ‘ that’s not bad’. Maybe we should leave and look for the same deal.

They would and it's a stated reason why Swiss are pissed atm because they are waiting for Brexit to finish so they can negotiate a deal on services (which is on hold).

An Ciarraioch

https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1015272105217351680

Water John

Chris Patten seems to believe it will up as a Norway - and not a +.

judeboy101

Did i hear barnier right on 6one? UK have nothing to fear from E/W border? Surely that's a softening on EU stance on backstop?.

Inquitus

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did i hear barnier right on 6one? UK have nothing to fear from E/W border? Surely that's a softening on EU stance on backstop?.

No that's a re-affirmation that the border can exist in the Irish sea, no?

An Ciarraioch

From another forum:

May's plan has been leaked in full:

Single market - Full alignment for goods via Treaty with nuclear clause.

No services in hope she can avoid FoM.

Customs union to be put in place after implementation period, officially a backstop to stay in place until border technology can facilitate a max fax setup (likely to be never). This needs to be signed off as ready by UK and EU.

ECJ jurisdiction for all areas covered, but via an arbitration tribunal of ECJ and Supreme Court judges.

Reported by Times (paywall) - ends.

An Ciarraioch

Inquitus wrote: »

No that's a re-affirmation that the border can exist in the Irish sea, no?

Yes - Tony Connelly clarified checks would occur at NI ports and airports.

judeboy101

Inquitus wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did i hear barnier right on 6one? UK have nothing to fear from E/W border? Surely that's a softening on EU stance on backstop?.

No that's a re-affirmation that the border can exist in the Irish sea, no?

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

From another forum:

May's plan has been leaked in full:

Single market - Full alignment for goods via Treaty with nuclear clause.

No services in hope she can avoid FoM.

Customs union to be put in place after implementation period, officially a backstop to stay in place until border technology can facilitate a max fax setup (likely to be never). This needs to be signed off as ready by UK and EU.

ECJ jurisdiction for all areas covered, but via an arbitration tribunal of ECJ and Supreme Court judges.

Reported by Times (paywall) - ends.

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

From another forum:

May's plan has been leaked in full:

Single market - Full alignment for goods via Treaty with nuclear clause.

No services in hope she can avoid FoM.

Customs union to be put in place after implementation period, officially a backstop to stay in place until border technology can facilitate a max fax setup (likely to be never). This needs to be signed off as ready by UK and EU.

ECJ jurisdiction for all areas covered, but via an arbitration tribunal of ECJ and Supreme Court judges.

Reported by Times (paywall) - ends.

If the EU accept services opt out how the hell can it stand over the 4 freedoms. Ejc has to share power with British judges? And they have the cheek to drag Poland through the courts for judical retirement ages.

lawred2

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did i hear barnier right on 6one? UK have nothing to fear from E/W border? Surely that's a softening on EU stance on backstop?.

You're thinking of N/S border

judeboy101

lawred2 wrote: »

judeboy101 wrote: »

Did i hear barnier right on 6one? UK have nothing to fear from E/W border? Surely that's a softening on EU stance on backstop?.

You're thinking of N/S border

No he said backstop, which to me means ni - UK , so e/w

Enzokk

judeboy101 wrote: »

No he said backstop, which to me means ni - UK , so e/w

Yes, but the UK doesn't have to fear the East West border between NI and the UK. The backstop was supposed to prevent a border between Ireland and NI but the DUP intervened, so it seems like he is saying it is easier to have a E/W border to protect their red lines.

An Ciarraioch

judeboy101 wrote: »

No he said backstop, which to me means ni - UK , so e/w

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1015198999131893760

Capt'n Midnight

From YLYL

Like I keep posting Max-Fac isn't technically possible. Once you accept that then it's place in any negotiations is moot. As is the credibility of any one suggesting it in spite of all the evidence of similar projects



It's like trying to sell a car that doesn't have an NCT / DOT and won't get one without lots of time and money. And it's not a classic car or anything special either. This isn't Pimp my Ride, it's Barryboys / Skanger me Banger with a blank cheque.


Max Fac would cost UK industry about £20Bn a year for nothing tangible and that's if it's delivered on time and on budget. And given that only two out of 133 big government projects are on track, and neither are related to customs or Brexit that's not likely.


Also isn't a good chunk of that £20Bn on paperwork still going to be wasted every year if they go for customs aligment instead of customs union ?

Infini

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/steve_hawkes/status/1015272105217351680

A second referendum should happen both to undo this mess and the leave side should be hammered on their total stupidity and the fact that they CHEATED in the first one.

I honestly think this the only way to truly end this because the only other option is an acrimonious crash that will ultimately tear the UK apart and plenty of them over there know this.

FrancieBrady

Infini wrote: »

A second referendum should happen both to undo this mess and the leave side should be hammered on their total stupidity and the fact that they CHEATED in the first one.

I honestly think this the only way to truly end this because the only other option is an acrimonious crash that will ultimately tear the UK apart and plenty of them over there know this.

Last night's This Week programme on the BBC was the first time I felt an air of realism from the host and the guests. Even Portillo seemed to grasp the muddled crisis the whole thing is in.

flutered

First Up wrote: »

I don't dispute the trend or cumulative affect but I wouldn't make a big deal out of a handful. Companies move more people than that all the time for operational reasons as well as strategic.

i have read on overclockers, that the head of merril lynch is on 5m a year, with 2m of that going to no 11, muntiply that a few times, then add on the folks under the top dogs, thats serious tax revenue lost if the figures are correct

An Ciarraioch

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1015302540110565383

Nate--IRL--

flutered wrote: »

i have read on overclockers...

Hah, you lurk there too? The Brexiteers have been awfully quiet of late there.



Nate

An Ciarraioch

All will be revealed in 54 minutes, apparently.

Inquitus

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

All will be revealed in 54 minutes, apparently.

Seems that way, we'll see in 42 minutes I guess!

https://twitter.com/rosskempsell/status/1015304065910231045

FrancieBrady

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1015302540110565383

May has won the day in the cabinet. A Pyrrhic victory?

Inquitus

https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/1015324539335725059

Read the agreement there, it won't fly with the EU, its Cherry Picked Unicorns on a Cake.

Trasna1

There's lots on the statement the EU can work with but you can are few obvious issues the EU will have with the result.single market only for goods and not quite freedom of movement. Customs partnership gets reheated again and no ECJ oversight.

Either the brexiteers don't believe in the cause anymore or they believe the EU will shoot this down and do the dirty work for them. Although it says Britain will have it's open independent trade policy, it will be highly constrained.