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So who's going to see the Pope?

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    #1532
    Ilovethe bonesofyou
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,688 ✭✭✭Ilovethe bonesofyou


    I don't see why these types of debates should descend into slagging matches between both sides. I've given my opinion a few pages back but I wouldn't mock someone for thinking differently. We're all complex human beings with our own beliefs and while we might not understand where someone else is coming from, we shouldn't try and force our opinions on them or expect them to change to our way of thinking.


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    #1533
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    markodaly wrote: »
    So the state is not at all culpable for its history of outsourcing education and social provisions to the church. I don't think we had groups of priests and nuns roaming the country kidnapping would be vulnerable children in secret.

    However, not surprised that I am being shooed away from that nasty inconvenient truth.

    So if someone asks a charity to run something, it's grand for that charity to do a bit of raping?

    The church was afforded far to much trust in the past. They told everyone how great and trustworthy they were and how they'd only do good by everyone. They were believed and they completely shat on that. But hey, that's not their fault. How were they not expected to touch a few kids here and there.


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    #1534
    Rosie2018
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭Rosie2018


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A three card trick you have clearly been conned with. :rolleyes:

    Francis is a genuine, humble man.


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    #1535
    EdgeCase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,471 ✭✭✭EdgeCase


    ricero wrote: »
    The plane has landed. Now let the liberal and atheist tears flow.

    It's not the liberals and athiests who'll be in tears. It's the faithful, devout Catholics who were utterly betrayed, let down and abused by the organisation over the decades and who have never been properly apologised to or in many cases even acknowledged who are most upset.

    A little humanity and humility would go a long way from many of those who seem to want to just gloss over that grim aspect of church history.


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    #1536
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users Posts: 81,243 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Surprised RTE don't have some fashion experts on discussing the Popes clobber.


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    #1537
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Rosie2018 wrote:
    In your own mind your 'the good man'. You fill up fora with hate and bile. Your world view offers nothing.


    Good man, not sure about that. But if not supporting child rapists makes me good ok so.
    Great Frank is here maybe he can start addressing the victim's of his organisation by opening the files of the Vatican to our authorities.


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    #1538
    Dude89
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Dude89


    Welcome Pope Francis.


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    #1539
    ricero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,348 ✭✭✭✭ricero


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    A three card trick you have clearly been conned with. :rolleyes:

    Nonsense if you knew anything about his life you would know he lived a very simple life in Argentina


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    #1540
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    markodaly wrote: »
    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Please let us help you with this.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

    Ah I get it.

    We are allowed to criticise the church for their abuse of children, which is legitimate mind you.

    Yet, we are not allowed to draw any parallels or correlation to similar happening today via state agencies?

    Fallen at the first post.
    markodaly wrote: »
    Right so.

    My, point here is that we can have a grown-up conversation of the church and its history of abuse here in Ireland, and the whys and hows of this.

    Or we can have the 2018 ladybird version, which as some posters state leaves no room for any analysis or reflection, just reactionary a ladybird/Disney version of history.

    That is certainly how you're presenting your post, and perhaps you've even convinced yourself that this is your motive.

    This thread is about the Pope, and by extension the church. It is about whether people will go see the Pope, and about the reasons some of them will not. Would you say that "the HSE did something bad too" is a legitimate reason to go see the Pope, or not to? Or is it instead a legitimate reason to be angry at the HSE, in a tangental discussion?

    Why would the HSE or any other organisation be relevant to the discussion at hand?

    It's clear that you either have a particular grievance with the HSE, which is probably misplaced in this thread, or you are annoyed about the criticism of the Pope, and of those who want to see the Pope, and you would like to reduce that criticism by normalising the Church's role in child abuse and coverup by comparing them to other organisations who have done similarly criminal acts.


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    #1541
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    They do lots of charity work? Great. Is poverty sorted so?

    Is the church responsible now for all the worlds problems?

    If they are charity and not a business, they've no need for anything beyond essentials, anything else can go towards helping the people they claim to care about.

    The church is more than a charity, but I think you know that.
    Clearly you know nothing about how charities and these organisation work. Many catholic organisation are actually excatly like that by the way. The church is a large organisation with millions of people working for it in various ways.

    But yes, you clearly want to have a grown-up debate on this. :D


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    #1542
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Rosie2018 wrote:
    Francis is a genuine, humble man.


    He accused the victims of sexual abuse of being liars, dispite being in possession of proof of their claims. That's not humility that's arrogance.


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    #1543
    ProudDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 11,569 ✭✭✭✭ProudDUB


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Surprised RTE don't have some fashion experts on discussing the Popes clobber.


    Yeah, I keep expecting Kay Burley to pop up out of the woodwork any minute.


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    #1544
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users Posts: 34,045 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    The 1979 visit was the largest public gathering of people (75% of population) up to and still is since WW2

    Source Sky News

    How times change. A different Ireland today


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    #1545
    Rosie2018
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭Rosie2018


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    Good man, not sure about that. But if not supporting child rapists makes me good ok so.
    Great Frank is here maybe he can start addressing the victim's of his organisation by opening the files of the Vatican to our authorities.

    By calling Pope Francis 'Frank' says it all about you. Does this manly act 'Hitman' (laughable moniker for a keyboard warrior) make you feel bigger?!


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    #1546
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    There is no such thing as a 'good' Catholic or priest if you support this current regime.

    Is there something like a "Good Republican"? Slab 'IRA chief of staff' Murphy?
    Stop being a hypocrite.


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    #1547
    The Crowman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 991 ✭✭✭The Crowman


    https://twitter.com/corkfolklore/status/1032930545720860672


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    #1548
    Rosie2018
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭Rosie2018


    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    He accused the victims of sexual abuse of being liars, dispite being in possession of proof of their claims. That's not humility that's arrogance.

    No he didn't. Just your lies.


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    #1549
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    markodaly wrote: »
    Is the church responsible now for all the worlds problems?



    Nope. But they're putting themselves up there as saviours.


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    #1550
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,974 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    ricero wrote: »
    Nonsense if you knew anything about his life you would know he lived a very simple life in Argentina


    Look at the entourage around him, the Skoda is to buy you lot off and con you.


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    #1551
    taytobreath
    Registered Users Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭taytobreath


    I was worried he’d fall down those steps on the plane


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    #1552
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Rosie2018 wrote:
    By calling Pope Francis 'Frank' says it all about you. Does this manly act 'Hitman' (laughable moniker for a keyboard warrior) make you feel bigger?!


    He is in office since 2013 he has done nothing to address the abuse preputrated by the organisation he leads. He has also called victims of abuse liars. I'm being polite calling him Frank. I can think of more appropriate names for him. Would you like to address my comments or is all you are capable is an ad hominem attack?


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    #1553
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    ricero wrote: »
    You cannot tarnish the whole church and its followers for the sins of some.

    Crimes. Not sins, crimes. And the coverup of crimes which seems endemic. And the many blind eyes turned by those not formally part of the coverup. How many of these crimes were brought to light by the church themselves, first?
    ricero wrote: »
    Keep the fume down and let the catholics of this country who care enjoy the popes visit. You can fume all you want on Monday.

    Weren't you the one gloating about liberal tears over a subject that has brought unimaginable grief to thousands? No, I think we'll fume as and when we please, and you can shed your own tears if that upsets you. They'll be of no consequence.


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    #1554
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,974 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    markodaly wrote: »
    Is there something like a "Good Republican"? Slab 'IRA chief of staff' Murphy?
    Stop being a hypocrite.

    Spot on with the comparison. You'll notice I have never used the word 'good' when referring to soldiers or politicians.

    Calling ROman Catholics that support this regime 'good' is exactly the same as calling someone like Slab 'good'. You should stop doing it!


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    #1555
    vicwatson
    Registered Users Posts: 28,403 ✭✭✭✭vicwatson


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Surprised RTE don't have some fashion experts on discussing the Popes clobber.


    Prob left that for TV3 !


    I see popey was put in a hold pattern off wicklow as the tv crews weren't ready !!


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    #1556
    Rosie2018
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 160 ✭✭Rosie2018


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    The 1979 visit was the largest public gathering of people (75% of population) up to this so since WW2

    Source Sky News

    How times change. A different Ireland today

    Just 750,000 now while Aethist Ireland have 1,000 attending their protest event. The more things change the more they stay the same.

    Aethist Ireland, that will be some boring event with long faced haters.


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    #1557
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Rosie2018 wrote:
    No he didn't. Just your lies.


    He did. The victims were in Chile he was forced to retract his claims after widespread protest. I suggest you learn something of the people you blindly defend.


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    #1558
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Rosie2018 wrote: »
    No he didn't. Just your lies.

    Newstalk broadcast on air a couple of hours ago that he said what the victims were saying about the convicted priests was slanderous. So he was saying they were liars


    You might want to give them a shout and tell them how they are wrong. Sure the Pope could Sue and get a few quid maybe


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    #1559
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    Rosie2018 wrote: »
    Hitman3000 wrote: »
    He accused the victims of sexual abuse of being liars, dispite being in possession of proof of their claims. That's not humility that's arrogance.

    No he didn't. Just your lies.

    He did.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/19/pope-francis-victims-church-sexual-abuse-slander-chile


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    #1560
    buckwheat
    Registered Users Posts: 344 ✭✭buckwheat


    Rosie2018 wrote: »
    No he didn't. Just your lies.

    Yes he fcuking did

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-latin-america-42745170


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    #1561
    markodaly
    Registered Users Posts: 13,954 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    AtomicHorror wrote: »

    Why would the HSE or any other organisation be relevant to the discussion at hand?

    Because if there was a HSE in 1921, there would be no reason for the Church to provide education and social services to the people of Ireland for multiple decades.

    Yes, blame the church for its abuse of power and its cover-up of said abuse but also recognise the fact that the state surrogated away the responsibility of education and social services of the day to anyone willing to step into the breach, which the church did, largely for free.

    And its safe to say that if a 1921 HSE did exist, kids would still have suffered as they do today. We would just be pillaring a different set of people.


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